Marriage (Same Sex Couples) Bill

Anne Main Excerpts

Tuesday 5th February 2013 Commons Chamber

[Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP)]

It is a great privilege to stand here today in the greatest seat of democracy in the world. I am honoured to be a part of this debate on the redefinition of marriage. The single biggest mailbag I have had in all my days as an MP, MLA and councillor has been on this issue. I listen to my constituents—not just one or two, but all of them. In this case, I listened to the 1,700 of my constituents who have contacted me to tell me clearly that they are opposed to any change and to the redefinition of marriage.

Two weeks ago, the Prime Minister walked into the House to great applause in relation to Europe. I was pleased as punch for him and what he is going to do with the referendum. He said he would be giving a commitment with all his heart and soul, and I am of the same mindset on this issue: with all my heart and with all my soul, I oppose the redefinition of marriage in this House and elsewhere.

More than 99% of my constituents who have contacted me have said that they do not want this. I have listened carefully to the argument that this is a matter of equal rights. That is not how I or my constituents view this matter. The introduction of civil partnerships, which enshrined legal and financial rights, ensured that people in civil partnerships had the same protection as a married couple. There is parity of rights here, so this is not a matter of equality of rights.

With great respect to the House and to everyone here, the sheer volume of those who are against this change cannot be ignored. Marriage is the union of one man and one woman. That has not changed for thousands of years. My constituents tell me they see no reason to redefine marriage, and I agree. We do not need to push through a measure that so many people believe will affect their ability to live out their Christian faith, but which does not give rights or correct wrongdoing. There is much potential for harm. This is not scaremongering; these are grounded and justified fears.

The proposed change in the law has the potential to bring inequality to anyone who disagrees with the redefinition of marriage, or who does not teach it, or who feels unable to promote or assist its promotion in their work. It will leave Churches vulnerable. On behalf of the Elim Church, the Baptists, the Presbyterians, the Brethren of the Church of Ireland or the Church of England, the Roman Catholics, the Methodists, the Muslims, the Sikhs, the Orthodox Jews—all those faiths who do not want a redefinition of marriage—I ask the Government not to ignore them, but to listen to what they and a few of us here are saying.

[Mrs Anne Main (St Albans) (Con)]

Does the hon. Gentleman share my puzzlement that this proposal was in nobody’s manifesto? Indeed, our own Prime Minister, only three days before the general election, said he would not be introducing it. None of us stood on a mandate to introduce this Bill.

[Jim Shannon]

I understand exactly how the hon. Lady feels. I would feel the same if I were a Tory.

The quadruple lock the Minister referred to makes worrying reading. There is no protection for public sector chaplains in the armed forces; NHS and university staff will be denied, for fear of losing their jobs, the freedom to express the opinion that marriage is between one man and one woman. Some 40,000 teachers have expressed the valid fear, backed up by legal opinion, that they will not be able to opt out of endorsing same-sex marriage and allow someone else to teach that aspect of the curriculum. There is something horribly wrong about a teacher losing their job for seeking to bow out gracefully of teaching that section by allowing someone else to step in. It is also wrong that parents have no protection enabling them to remove their children from classes in which they will be taught something that is expressly against their beliefs. When did we become a country that enforces ideals on people to the detriment of their personal faith? I do not believe that we are such a country, and I urge everyone today to ensure that we do not become it.

What about council registrars who feel unable to follow the new definition because it is contrary to their faith? The Minister has claimed that the quadruple lock will ensure that Europe cannot change. She and everyone else in this House knows that Europe decisions have been made in Europe that overturned legislation in this country. I have five examples, but I will give only one, because time is against me: Islington council sacked registrar Lillian Ladele for requesting an accommodation of her conscientious objection to same-sex civil partnership, and the European Court confirmed that a public authority could force employees to act against their beliefs on marriage and sack any who resist. That demonstrates that a quadruple lock and any other kind of lock will fall down when it comes to the European Court. Is there any other reason why the Minister believes that Europe will support us?

In December 2011, the Prime Minister stated that the UK is

“a Christian country and we should not be afraid to say so”.

Today, I urge the Government to put that statement into practice and show that we are not ashamed to live by the Christian principles of loving God, loving our neighbour and living by the word of God. Do not take away people’s right to do that and say it is for equality. It is not. Parity of rights is already secure. Instead, let people live their faith without fear of persecution, aided by this Government. I urge right hon. and hon. Members to oppose the Bill.

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[Mrs Cheryl Gillan (Chesham and Amersham) (Con)]

It is quite obvious from the tenor of this debate that this proposed legislation presents many problems for people both in this Chamber and beyond. Constituents and colleagues who are neither prejudiced nor homophobic genuinely believe that it is impossible to change the meaning of a marriage, which is what this Bill seeks to do.

People with deep religious beliefs see this attempt to change the law as an undermining of a fundamental institution. Now, by its very introduction, this Bill has undermined the perception of civil partnerships, which were so widely celebrated only a few years ago. I understand many younger people are not bothered by this Bill, but many older people do not understand this Government’s imperative to change the law in this area.

There may be a case for examining any legal disadvantages to same-sex couples and for strengthening any weaknesses in the civil partnerships legislation. This legislation, however, was not in our manifesto; it was not in the coalition agreement; and it was not in the Queen’s Speech. It should not have been introduced before a much fuller discussion had taken place—particularly, I believe, within my own party.

[Mrs Main]

Does my right hon. Friend share my puzzlement at why the Prime Minister referred specifically to not introducing such a Bill only just before an election?

[Mrs Gillan]

There have been many conflicting messages coming out of the Government, and my hon. Friend has just alluded to one of them.

At a meeting I attended in the House of Lords only a few weeks ago with the then putative Archbishop of Canterbury, one bishop told us that the Church had not been fully consulted. I believe that the Church should have been fully involved in all discussions on this matter. If the Government had sought to redefine civil partnerships or if they could really have ensured that the religious freedoms that they are promising would stick, more people would have been persuaded to support the legislation.

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[John Glen (Salisbury) (Con)]

I am very disappointed to have to rise to oppose the Bill. I never imagined that I would be put in a position where I have, by virtue of standing up for marriage, been characterised variously as a “homophobic bigot”, a “religious nutter”, a product of the dark ages, or, as I see in this weekend’s press, on the brink of making “a tragic mistake” that I will have many years to regret. This was not in our main manifesto. To cite that it was on page 14 of the equalities contract, a sub-manifesto that had little or no public scrutiny, is disingenuous at best.

My concern this afternoon is to uphold marriage. I speak not just from personal religious interest; although sadly I feel it necessary to have to state it, I do not speak either from any sentiments of a homophobic nature. I hope that my friends who are gay would stand to that comment.

[Mrs Main]

I am sure that, like me, my hon. Friend will be saddened to hear that many colleagues in this House who have professed themselves to be gay have said that they feel that they cannot oppose the Bill because they will have undue pressure from the gay community.

[John Glen]

I thank my hon. Friend for her intervention. That is most regrettable.

The assumption of the Bill is that marriage is just about love and commitment. Of course marriage is about love and commitment, but it is also about the complementarity, both biologically and as a mother and father, of a man and a woman who have an inherent probability of procreation and of raising children within that institution.

As an otherwise ardent supporter of the Prime Minister and his leadership in difficult times, I have tried hard to reconcile myself to his view on this matter. However, I cannot see how any Government can automatically confer marriage on somebody by passing a law without changing the nature of what marriage means. It will lead to legislative anomalies and undermine the recognised obligations and norms that sustain and underpin marriage as an institution. The Government themselves have recognised, in the text of the Bill, that there inevitably will be important distinctions between same-sex and opposite-sex marriages. The Bill is clear that adultery and consummation will apply only to opposite-sex marriages.

In the Stonewall briefing, those concepts are seen as “archaic requirements” and that “unreasonable behaviour” will provide sufficient grounds for divorce, thereby opening a whole new area of debate, confusion and differences within the same new proposed definition of marriage. For married heterosexual couples, the concepts of consummation and adultery will remain, yet they will not apply for same-sex couples who take up the proposed provision. This ludicrous situation underscores why, nearly a decade ago, the wise provision of civil partnerships was made—to ensure that same-sex couples could make an equally valid commitment in law, receiving all the legal rights and privileges conferred by marriage, but remaining different in name.

By a factor of at least 30:1, my constituents have expressed their opposition. Those who are indifferent or in favour of the change are unlikely to change their vote over this issue, but the level of disappointment of a much larger minority, as witnessed by the 635,000 who signed the Coalition for Marriage petition, is keenly felt and will be a highly motivated electoral minority in future elections.

I have stood up against homophobic bullying and prejudice all my political life, and I have to say that the language used by some Christians is, unfortunately, appalling. I want to put on record my abhorrence at some of the representations I have received. Homophobia can never be condoned, but redefining marriage is the wrong way to tackle prejudice. Huge numbers of Conservative supporters feel grave disappointment and alienation at the decision to pursue this legislation. The Government will say that they are strengthening marriage by widening it, but in doing so they are redefining it and in redefining it they are undermining it. If the Government want to strengthen marriage, I respectfully submit that they should leave it alone.

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[Hugh Robertson]

I entirely understand my hon. Friend’s point. There is a procedural issue, which is that many of the Churches and people who wish to give detailed evidence in the evidence sessions have asked us not to do what he suggests. If we took the Committee stage entirely on the Floor of the House, we would have to forgo the opportunity for them to appear before the Committee in detailed evidence sessions. It is precisely to protect the ability of the many religious groups that wish to give evidence in person that we have been unable to do as he suggests.

[Mrs Main]

rose—

[Hugh Robertson]

No, I am afraid that I will not be able to take any more interventions.

At the heart of this Bill is a straightforward proposition. If a couple love each other, the state should not stop them getting married unless there is a good reason, and in this day and age being gay is not a good reason, if it ever was. I know that, for some religions and faiths, this goes beyond their beliefs. I respect that entirely; as a result, the Bill specifically protects the rights of those who do not agree and does not compel anyone to do anything. All religious organisations are free to choose whether to opt in or opt out. This Bill simply allows people to get married who are currently excluded from doing so purely because they are of the same sex. It is a clear and simple objective, delivered in a way that promotes and protects religious freedom. In short, I believe this is a sensible and timely step forward. On that basis, I commend the Bill to the House.

Question put, That the Bill be now read a Second time.

--- Later in debate ---

Bill read a Second time.

[Mrs Anne Main (St Albans) (Con)]

On a point of order, Mr Speaker. On the Floor of the House today, we heard many times that the Bill should be committed to a Committee of the whole House. The Minister was asked whether that was possible, and he gave his reasons why he believed not. For clarification, Mr Speaker, and before we vote on the programme motion, is it possible to have split Committee proceedings, with some upstairs, facilitating what the Minister would like to happen, and some on the Floor of the House?

[Mr Speaker]

I am grateful to the hon. Lady for her attempted point of order. Her point might be interesting, but that does not render it a point of order on which I can rule. Her view, no doubt informed by a close reading of Standing Order No. 84A(2), will assuredly guide her and perhaps other right hon. and hon. Members on how to vote on the programme motion, which is about to be moved by or on behalf of the Minister.

MARRIAGE (SAME SEX COUPLES) BILL (PROGRAMME)

Motion made, and Question put forthwith (Standing Order No. 83A(7),

That the following provisions shall apply to the Marriage (Same Sex Couples) Bill:

Committal

1. The Bill shall be committed to a Public Bill Committee.

Proceedings in Public Bill Committee

2. Proceedings in the Public Bill Committee shall (so far as not previously concluded) be brought to a conclusion on 12 March 2013.

3. The Public Bill Committee shall have leave to sit twice on the first day on which it meets.

Consideration and Third Reading

4. Proceedings on Consideration and Third Reading shall be taken in two days in accordance with the following provisions of this Order.

5. Proceedings on Consideration shall (so far as not previously concluded) be brought to a conclusion one hour before the moment of interruption on the second day.

6. Proceedings on Third Reading shall (so far as not previously concluded) be brought to a conclusion at the moment of interruption on the second day.

7. Standing Order No. 83B (Programming committees) shall not apply to proceedings on Consideration and Third Reading.

Other proceedings

8. Any other proceedings on the Bill (including any proceedings on consideration of Lords Amendments or on any further messages from the Lords) may be programmed.—(Mark Lancaster.)