Terminally Ill Adults (End of Life) Bill (Second sitting)

Sojan Joseph Excerpts

Committee stage
Tuesday 28th January 2025 Public Bill Committees

[Dr Opher]

Q I am interested in the opt-out whereby ethically, doctors can opt out of taking the decision for patients. Would they then need to steer someone towards another doctor, or can they just simply refuse to do it?

Professor Whitty: Duncan may wish to comment for nurses. For doctors, we should be very mindful of the fact that for some doctors, as for some citizens, this is a point of very strong principle indeed, therefore there will be a gradation of people feeling that they can personally be involved in it. I suspect that if they themselves did not feel able to do it—because of conscience or choice, or because they did not feel that they had the necessary skills—the great majority would have no problem referring on, but it might be an issue for some people.

Personally, my view is that we should be able to have the range, provided that people are aware in general that, if one person cannot provide it and then does not wish to discuss it, there are alternative routes. But that really is a matter for Parliament and if Parliament says, “No, actually, that is unfair on the patient, because then the patient is having to go through an extra step,” that is an alternative and perfectly reasonable principle. Parliament is going to have to balance those two principles; that is not for me as a doctor. I just think that that range of opinion needs to be thought through when people are coming to that final parliamentary decision.

Duncan Burton: If I could add to that, again, I think that bit about the wider workforce and how we would support them is really important. We have situations like this already. We have advice professionally around things such as abortions and working in embryo services and fertility, for example, so we need to make sure that the safeguards for our staff are really clear. As Chris has said, our staff will have a range of views and opinions on this, as will the wider public. So the work you do in creating this Bill is really important in terms of the advice that we give to people about signposting and having those conversations. Actually, our clinicians are having conversations every single day about the choices that people have at the end of their lives.

[Sojan Joseph (Ashford) (Lab)]

Q Sir Chris Whitty, you said that not all mental capacity assessments are safe. Do you think that hopelessness and low mood can affect someone’s capacity and that a sudden diagnosis of terminal illness can lead to some of those states—depression, low mood and hopelessness? Do you think that all doctors are capable of identifying those states?

Professor Whitty: I would hope that most doctors are capable of identifying that someone has some degree—or a large degree—of mental health distress, or mental health illness, if you wish. What not all doctors will feel comfortable doing is actually deciding whether that is sufficient to interfere with someone’s ability to make a decision with full capacity. That is where help from colleagues from psychiatry, and mental health more widely, is going to be useful.

But that should be good medical practice, in my view, under all circumstances. This Bill takes it to a high level of need because of the seriousness of the decisions being taken, but that is part of medical practice. Duncan will have discussed with senior nurses, when he when he was operating clinically, “Should we actually get an opinion from a mental health colleague”—either a community psychiatric nurse, if it is that kind of question, a psychiatrist or others—“to make that assessment?”

That is really the question, but I certainly would not want to be in a situation where the fact that someone with a terminal diagnosis will have some degree of low mood in itself just rules them out from any kind of medical intervention—this, or any other. That should not be the case. They have to have access to whatever the state and the medical profession are able to provide—again, obviously, depending on what Parliament decides on this particular Bill.

[Sojan Joseph]

Q My next question is for Duncan. Nurses who work in stressful environments, such as people working in mental health wards, are expected to get clinical supervision. Do you think that the nurses who are going to work in these areas—if this Bill passes—would require that specialist clinical supervision? And do you think the NHS will have the capacity to provide clinical supervision for the nurses working in those areas?

Duncan Burton: I think you are absolutely right—anybody working in stressful environments. If the Bill is passed, we will need to make sure that we have sufficient psychological support for nurses and doctors working in these services, as we do now for many of our nurses and other professionals working in these kinds of situations. People working in end of life, or cancer nurses, for example, often have psychological support to help them deal with some very difficult conversations with patients.

We would need to look at that and make sure that sufficient support was in place for anybody working in these situations. We would also need to be mindful about the wider workforce, given the issues from such a debate as this and how the decisions to signpost people on to services might create—for some people—moral injury. We do need to think about the support in place for those people.

[Jake Richards (Rother Valley) (Lab)]

Q You have touched on this, but perhaps we could have some further clarity. Certain amendments have been suggested that are essentially more prescriptive about what factors need to be taken into account and what steps clinicians would have to take when considering capacity in this context, as well as to inform consent and inform about the options available. Of course this is a matter for Parliament, but would you err on the side of trusting clinicians’ professional judgment within the legal framework, as it is—in terms of the Mental Capacity Act and the guidance on informed consent—or would you deem it suitable for further prescriptive steps to be put into primary legislation in this context?

Professor Whitty: It is entirely a matter for Parliament, at one level, but I can give a view. It goes back to the point that Naz Shah and others made earlier: the situations that people find themselves in are extraordinarily different—culturally, where they are in their lives, where their families are and a whole variety of other issues. Only the clinicians dealing with that person will really know all the different factors at play. If there is a good therapeutic relationship, and you would certainly hope there was, they should understand a whole variety of things that are very difficult for people sitting around this table to predict, however wise you are—although I am sure you are extraordinarily wise, to be clear. That was not my point. My point is that this is very difficult and I could not, at this point, write down a law that would be helpful to someone dealing with a whole range of different scenarios in which they are going to have to have an end-of-life discussion.

My own view, for what it is worth, is that I would do fewer things rather than more. That is partly because simplicity is the key to really good safeguards, in my experience. If the safeguards are really clear and simple, everybody understands them—if you ask six people, “What does this mean?”, those six will give you the same answer. The more complicated you make things, the more room there is for ambiguity and uncertainty—because different things are playing in—and the more difficult it is for the patient, their family and the medical and nursing professionals assisting them, to navigate the system.

Without in any sense wishing to curtail what Parliament might wish to do, I would make a plea for simplicity wherever possible and for accepting the extraordinary variety of people’s lives, which may have unpredictable consequences in terms of the way the end of their lives plays out.

--- Later in debate ---

[The Chair]

I am mindful of time, so this will probably be the last question.

[Sojan Joseph]

Q What is your view on the accuracy of the prognoses that we make in this country? If somebody is told that they may live for three years instead of six months, it will make a difference to their decision making. Does the GMC or the BMA have any data or studies on the accuracy of prognosis?

Mark Swindells: We do not hold data. I have seen the coverage of the Bill and the uncertainty. I think we would agree with a lot of what the chief medical officer said to you about the stepped decision that a doctor will make, depending on the importance of the situation. We try to capture that in our end-of-life care guidance. We also agree with the point about a doctor giving a central estimate. In the guidance we talk about, for example, issues with taking a second opinion where there is a greater degree of uncertainty, and the importance of doctors keeping up with the latest clinical knowledge on the efficacy of different treatment courses to come to that determination. We would agree that there is inevitably a degree of uncertainty in the central ground that the chief medical officer was talking about.

[The Chair]

As we still have a little time, I will call Kit Malthouse.

--- Later in debate ---

[Kim Leadbeater]

Yes. It sounds as though you are saying that your professionals are trained to have those conversations, which is very reassuring. Glyn, do you want to add anything?

Glyn Berry: Just to say that I absolutely agree with Professor Ranger. My experience of working with palliative nurses, and nurses in general, is long, and I have historically had exceptionally positive experiences and continue to do so. I think that we learn from each other, and it is really important that we can have those conversations with the person and ask questions that they might never have been asked before, such as, “What is it that you want?”

Professor Ranger is absolutely right in terms of autonomy and the person having control, because once that diagnosis is given, it can be a downward spiral for a person and they feel that they lose control. Patients and families talk about that—about having no control over what is happening. In effect, that is true in terms of what is happening in the disease or illness trajectory, but it is so important to remind a person that they are still the person that they were before that diagnosis, that they will continue to be that person, and that they still have a voice. In both our roles professionally, and alongside other clinicians, that is what we seek to do all the time. That is why a multidisciplinary team approach is so important.

Ultimately, we could find that, once you have asked all the appropriate questions and you have put potential safeguards in place following conversations, a person may not choose that particular point to end their life—as you mentioned, Kim—and may continue to live to the end of their natural life.

[Sojan Joseph]

Q When the RCN Scotland director gave evidence to the Scottish Parliament during the discussion of the Assisted Dying for Terminally Ill Adults (Scotland) Bill, he expressed the RCN’s concern that there were not sufficient safeguards in place to protect nurses and nursing practice around assisted dying in Scotland. Are you satisfied that the Bill we have before us in England and Wales addresses those concerns, or would you like to see amendments to ensure that the mental health and wellbeing of nurses involved in the process are protected, should the Bill become law?

Professor Ranger: Yes, we would want to see more support and protection for nurses. Of course, in the exploring of assisted dying legislation in Scotland, the second clinical decision maker is a nurse—so it a doctor and a nurse, whereas in England and Wales we are looking at two medically qualified practitioners. We absolutely want to make sure that the skills and support is there for nursing staff, and the ability—as I heard our medical colleagues saying—to not be involved in assisted dying absolutely has to be supported. It cannot be an expectation of the role; it has to be something you choose to proactively take part in as a conscious decision. It cannot ever be just an expectation of a nurse. We are absolutely adamant about that. The Bill cannot just support the needs of medical staff—nursing absolutely has to be included within that, both in skills and support.

[Kit Malthouse]

Q Professor, I want to test a little further the notion of a separate organisation that you mentioned. I can understand a separate discipline emerging, acquired by training, which is what happens in palliative care at the moment. We heard from previous witnesses that simplicity in safeguards is key, and in particular from the CMO that we have to avoid the last 6 months of someone’s life being a bureaucratic nightmare. At the moment, within palliative care and palliative nursing generally, you are already dealing with patients who are electing to refuse treatment, food and water, or are supporting patients following an advance directive. If you are supporting people in those circumstances as they move towards their death, do you think that it could be absorbed within the current functions, rather than having a separate organisation?

Professor Ranger: It is difficult. If I am honest, we have probably not explored that enough within our thinking as a college. We know what we would not want to see, which is a situation where there is an expectation that it becomes part of a pathway. It has got to be something you actively seek and opt into. I think how that is administered probably requires more thought, if I am honest, but I would not want to see it becoming an expectation of a pathway, because then the pressure on the individual may change. That is something we need to safeguard against.

I am worried that we should not make it so bureaucratic for the individual that it becomes impossible to have their autonomy respected, but how that happens is something that needs further exploration. We would fully support making it as clear and unbureaucratic for the person as humanly possible. But we would not want to see it as a sort of pathway within our current setting, because there could then be a sense that this is something that is externally influenced rather than being something that someone actively seeks for their autonomy.