Siobhain McDonagh
Main Page: Siobhain McDonagh (Labour - Mitcham and Morden)Social Housing (Regulation) Bill [ Lords ] (First sitting)
Siobhain McDonagh Excerpts
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Levelling Up, Housing and Communities (Dehenna Davison)
It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship today, Sir Edward. I am incredibly grateful to the shadow Minister, the hon. Member for Greenwich and Woolwich, for the constructive way he has embraced this debate, for the Opposition’s broad support for the Bill, and for his commitment to ensuring that the regulator is as robust as it can be. On that point, we have certainly found some early agreement.
As the hon. Member outlined, amendment 13 would extend the remit of the regulator to the care and support provided to residents in supported exempt accommodation and temporary accommodation, while new clause 8 would extend the remit to those types of accommodation when they are not social housing but are held by a registered provider.
Temporary accommodation and supported housing that meets the definition of social housing is already regulated under the regulator’s standards, and the Care Quality Commission already regulates the provision of personal care in supported housing. The support needs of people in supported housing are wide, varied and often complex compared with those living in general needs accommodation. That is why we are supporting targeted measures in the Supported Housing (Regulatory Oversight) Bill, introduced by my hon. Friend the Member for Harrow East, to tackle the issues we are seeing in supported housing. I echo the shadow Minister’s comments; I am very grateful that my hon. Friend is bringing his incredible expertise to the Committee.
While there are many excellent supported housing providers, the Government recognise that there are some rogue supported housing landlords. Let me be completely clear for the record: any abuse of the supported housing system will not be tolerated. The Supported Housing (Regulatory Oversight) Bill will introduce national standards to be applied to supported housing and to give local authorities new powers to introduce licensing schemes and other enforcement powers.
Temporary accommodation is a key safety net for homeless households in this country. The homelessness code of guidance is clear that, at a minimum, temporary accommodation must be free from all category 1 health hazards, as assessed by the housing health and safety rating system, and it must be suitable for all members of the household. Households have the right to request that the council reviews the suitability of their accommodation.
Siobhain McDonagh (Mitcham and Morden) (Lab)
On temporary accommodation for homeless families and the code of guidance, who enforces the code? Who knows whether councils are living up to it? Who inspects the accommodation with a third eye to see whether it meets the standards?
Dehenna Davison
I will follow that up with the hon. Member in writing after our sittings today.
Dehenna Davison
As I have just outlined, I will write to the hon. Member to pick up her point following today’s sittings.
The focus of the Regulator of Social Housing is on regulating the standards for registered providers of social housing. I believe that the regulator should remain focused on that vital role, and that greatly expanding its scope to include temporary accommodation could be a significant risk to its expertise. I do not believe that expanding the scope of the regulator into those areas, as proposed by the amendments tabled by the hon. Member for Greenwich and Woolwich, is the right way to address them. The regulator should continue to focus on ensuring that registered providers provide safe and high-quality social housing for tenants and on delivering the new consumer regime.
On that basis, I ask the shadow Minister to consider withdrawing his amendments today, but with a commitment from me to follow up with him before Report to see whether anything more can be done.
Bob Blackman
I thank my hon. Friend for that intervention. Clearly, while the amendments may have good intentions, he makes a good point. We do not want the good providers, who are doing a fantastic job in supporting people to rebuild their lives, to face unnecessary burdens and regulation. It behoves the movers of amendments such as these to ensure that we have covered all those bases.
We must therefore ask: even though the amendments look superficially beneficial, do we have a comprehensive series of measures that plugs all the loopholes and does not burden good providers? Rogue providers are smart; they will look at any gaps in the law and for all opportunities to exploit the system and vulnerable people. The sensible thing would be to withdraw the amendment and have further discussion so that, together, on a cross-party basis, we can make sure that the Bill ends up in the right place.
Siobhain McDonagh
I support the amendments tabled by my hon. Friend the Member for Greenwich and Woolwich. At the moment, we have two things going on. First, we have exempt accommodation, where private property developers access vulnerable people and place them in houses in multiple occupation, cream off large amounts of housing benefit and provide no support to those individuals. They are exploited and left until the police, in many cases, or mental health services come along and take them away. Secondly, neighbourhoods are completely terrorised by people who are vulnerable but unable to control their behaviour, and absolutely nobody regulates that.
I represent a suburban south-west London constituency. Do not get me wrong; properties are not cheap, but they are cheaper than in other bits of London. Companies such as Stef & Philips are exploiting wholesale every loophole and making large amounts of money to bring fear and distress to neighbourhoods and to the residents who occupy those premises.
Last week, a lady who lives in the Pollards Hill area came to my surgery. The 1930s semi-detached house next door to her had been converted into an HMO for five vulnerable tenants. There were no bins to collect the rubbish and no facilities to ensure people could live adequately. She lives next door and has cancer. One of the residents in that home had pulled a knife on her only the day before, and all the other vulnerable tenants in the house had to stay locked in their rooms to avoid that individual. Stef & Philips are making hundreds or thousands of pounds every week from that property.
In Ravensbury, another ward in my constituency, on Malmesbury Road, the same company had a man who was so vulnerable that the police raided the property and had to withdraw because he had a crossbow and they needed firearms support. The whole street was blocked off. That is St Helier estate, for any hon. Members who may know it. It is a beautiful local authority estate built after the first world war to provide homes fit for heroes. The house is beautiful, but not as an HMO for five vulnerable people. People in the street are terrified. Who knows how terrified the other residents in the property are? The company’s balance sheet goes up and up while people go out to work to pay ever-higher tax rates to sustain that company in exploiting people.
Sarah Owen (Luton North) (Lab)
My hon. Friend is making excellent points. That is the human impact of the lack of regulation and enforcement on rogue providers that are making millions out of very vulnerable people. Their impact is felt not only by the individuals who are being harmed, but by entire communities. Does she agree that although we do not want regulation for regulation’s sake, we need not just regulation but enforcement for those who are getting away with this scot-free right now? We do not just need legislation; we need the ability to enforce and act.
Siobhain McDonagh
I absolutely agree with my hon. Friend. If there is no regulation, this will just grow and grow. As mortgage interest rates go up and business for buy-to-let landlords becomes less profitable, more people are going to look at providing this style of housing, because they can exploit the housing benefit system. If that is not happening in the constituencies of all the hon. Members of this Bill Committee, it will be coming to them soon.
Eddie Hughes
The point I am about to make is non-political, given that I am going to use the example of Labour-led Birmingham Council. That council did pilot work, and its scrutiny committee, which was chaired by a Labour member, subsequently published a report. It was able to identify a number of improvements that it could make within the existing legislation. I fully appreciate that legal challenge is an option for landlords who have their claims turned down. However, the council was able to reduce the number of people coming through the pipeline to provide this type of accommodation, and it was able to improve the quality of that accommodation. There is some room for councils who are prepared to focus on this, to improve outcomes for local people within the framework of the existing legislation.
Siobhain McDonagh
I turn to Aves housing association, which was run by a man who was exposed by the BBC for running a former supposed housing association that is in fact a commercial enterprise. It specialises in parts of Pollards Hill and Longthornton in my constituency, which neighbour Croydon, and it routinely takes very vulnerable people to live in houses that are simply not big enough for conversion. It accesses people’s universal credit accounts and takes their money. When the housing benefit department at Merton Council discovered that, it decided not to pay housing benefit to Aves residents. That might seem sensible to most Committee Members. However, that then meant that 92 vulnerable people were not having their rent paid, so were vulnerable to eviction—at which point, Merton Council’s housing department and adult social services departments would have collapsed. Local authorities are in a bind. Do they take notice of what is going on—in which case, they get responsibilities they cannot meet—or do they turn a blind eye because, in the end, that is the only way they can manage?
Bob Blackman
The hon. Member is making a very clear case about the problems in her constituency. One problem that local authorities face is that they have no powers to prevent such properties from being turned over in this way. Does she agree that one issue we have to deal with, which is not addressed in this amendment, is that local authorities need powers? Those powers might be around planning permission to do with HMOs and HMO regulation, to control the type of housing that she quite rightly describes as being a challenge in her area; or they might be over a licensing system to make sure that the operators of supported housing projects are fit and proper persons who will not exploit their position.
Further, data-sharing should be spread across the country. These rogues might well jump from Merton to Croydon to somewhere else, because they know that the local authority does not know about them. However, that is not within the scope of the amendment, although it is in the scope of my Bill, which I will be debating later. Although we would all agree that the issues that the hon. Member has raised are a scandal and need to be addressed, we must be clear that that is not within the scope of the amendment.
Siobhain McDonagh
I believe that the regulator should have power to look at this area of housing. It is all very well for councils to get more powers, and I would be the first to agree with that, but many councils already have a lot of powers that they cannot use because they cannot afford to. They do not have access to social housing units. They do not have access to the level of environmental health officers that they need. They do not have access to the number of planning officers they need in the area of planning enforcement.
Sarah Owen
My hon. Friend hits the nail on the head. The pilot work that the hon. Member for Harrow East just spoke about is fantastic. We will take whatever we can from that and learn, but the point is that the councils and authorities that did that work had to have extra resources to use their existing powers. This is not just about legislating and enabling local authorities to have more powers; it is also about them having the funds and resources to use those powers.
Siobhain McDonagh
Absolutely, and I know the hon. Member for Harrow East will be aware of how few London councils ever prosecute anybody under their current powers. It is about regulation, but it is also about local authorities being able to use their powers. In the light of the recent Budget, local authorities’ powers will become even less well used if their finances continue to be squeezed.
Let us go back to Aves in Pollards Hill and Longthornton. I met the regulator and spoke about Aves and my concern about the exploitation of tenants. The regulator said to me, “We completely agree with you, but there is nothing we can do. We do not have the power to do anything.” Either we give the regulator the powers and do something about it, or we go on talking about it in a well-meaning way while the problem exponentially grows. I, for one, want to see some action rather than none.
Maggie Throup (Erewash) (Con)
It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Sir Edward. I think this is an important Bill. Amendment 13 and new clause 8 relate to supported exempt accommodation and temporary accommodation when provided by providers that are the subject of other parts of the Bill. The hon. Member for Greenwich and Woolwich made a very good case.
The hon. Member for Mitcham and Morden made a passionate speech, and I think we can all relate to what she was saying, because we all have examples in our constituency of providers who sound very legitimate and credible, but after they are looked into, it turns out that they are not. They are fly-by-nights who are just taking the opportunity provided by the loophole in regulations. We can all cite examples of HMOs that have been passed by councils because the councils do not have the powers to stop them. The impact on neighbourhoods is quite dire, and it really does destroy local communities.
While I appreciate the intentions behind the Opposition’s amendments, I think the better place to close the gaps in regulation would be in the Bill from my hon. Friend the Member for Harrow East. This measure is obviously needed, but I think this Bill is the wrong place for it. I hope to speak later about some of the specific issues in my constituency and the importance of regulating the providers and ensuring the provisions of the Bill are met, because they are so needed.
Bob Blackman
I agree with the shadow Minister that the provision of affordable social housing in this country is far too low. It has been far too low for far too long. That has been the case not just under this Government, but under successive Governments for more than 30 years.
The shadow Minister has put forward his case, and he quoted one report claiming that 145,000 units are required per year. The Levelling Up, Housing and Communities Committee and I have always taken the view that 90,000 units per year would be required just to get us back to where we should be. From that perspective, it is clear that there needs to be more investment in affordable social housing, and we need to get to a point where people have a place they can call home, a rent that they can afford, and the option to buy when their circumstances allow.
The new clauses seem to put extra burdens on the regulator, for example by requiring them to report on the amount of social housing there should be in this country. I do not think that is an appropriate role for the regulator. It is right that organisations, such as those the shadow Minister quoted—Shelter, Crisis, CIH and others—should be reporting and commenting to Government, but I do not think it is the role of the regulator to report to Government.
I think the role of the regulator is quite clearly to report on the condition of social housing. I hope as we go through the Bill—and I will challenge the Secretary of State on this particular issue—we will see some amendments that strengthen the role of the regulator to ensure that social housing providers are performing as they should be. That means providing a high-quality standard of accommodation. We have heard about what has happened in Rochdale, but the issue of the condition of property is not confined to Rochdale. It goes up and down the country.
We need to see dramatic improvements in the provision of not only the quantity of social housing, but the conditions within those units. It is a sheer scandal in this country that we are paying huge salaries to social housing providers who are pocketing the money while providing a very poor service for their tenants. We need to call them to account. I believe that comes through the role of the regulator. That is the way it should be. I hope we can see some strengthening of the Bill on that point through Government amendments, at least when we get to Report stage.
On safety defects, there is clearly an issue about data, performance and the funding of removing unsafe cladding and dealing with fire safety defects. The hon. Member for Greenwich and Woolwich will know that I have been on this case for quite some time—since before Grenfell. One of the key issues here is about whether the regulator should be reporting on it, but frankly I think the regulator should be enforcing it. They should be making sure the providers actually do their job of providing safe accommodation for people.
While I recognise that the new clauses are well-intentioned, I do not think they hit the nub of where we need to be going. I hope the Government will come forward with some new clauses to strengthen the Bill when we get to Report stage, particularly in light of the scandal in Rochdale and the conditions people are facing up and down the country.
Siobhain McDonagh
Thank you, Sir Edward, for your generosity in calling me. I realise I registered quite late that I wanted to speak.
Why are we sitting here in this Bill Committee today? We are sitting here because, under the coalition Government’s bonfire of the quangos, we set fire to the housing inspectorate and the Audit Commission in the belief that no regulation of damp or mould growth in properties was required, that all the adjudicator had to do was look at the financial structure of housing associations, and that that would be enough. What a terrible error that has been.
In my constituency, the largest social housing provider is Clarion Housing Association. After an ITV news programme about some of its standards, it was referred to the regulator. The regulator’s decision was that it could not investigate because there was not a systemic problem. That is where we have got to. How many of us were distressed by Awaab Ishak’s death? How many of us know that we have plenty of social housing units in our constituencies with the same damp and mould growth problems? At the moment we have no form of regulation that can tackle that.
The adjudicator does not go out and look at properties or inspect procedures. The adjudicator is interested in the financial structures. I would never argue that we should not look at the financial viability of a housing association, but I also want to know what it does when it has problems of damp and mould growth. I want to know that a Government inspector goes out and sample-tests and looks at properties.
We would never accept an Ofsted that did not inspect schools or a Care Quality Commission that did not go in and inspect hospitals, care homes or local authority social services, but we have accepted that the regulator has no responsibility for going into social housing properties and inspecting their conditions.
When we look at reducing regulation, we must remember Awaab Ishak, and remember that we do not have a regulator in our country that would do anything about that.
Matthew Pennycook
That is useful clarification. If I have correctly understood what the Minister is saying, emergency remedial action under clause 31 of the Bill stems, in the first instance, from a referral from the ombudsman. Let us think about that process in detail. To get to the ombudsman, a tenant would have to exhaust all stages of their resident provider’s internal complaints process, which is three stages in most cases. It takes about a year to get through it. They would then have to go to the ombudsman, who has a huge backlog. Clause 31 is about emergency remedial action that poses an imminent threat to health and safety. I urge the Government to think again about how, in particular, clause 31 operates because tenants will need to give notice to the regulator about specific clause 31 failures far quicker than the process she has just described.
Siobhain McDonagh
The situation gets even more complicated when a tenant exasperatedly says, “I want to go to a lawyer” and then the whole thing closes down.
Matthew Pennycook
We are testing the patience of Sir Edward and the rules, but the point my hon. Friend highlights is a genuine one about the complication of legal matters and whether tenants abandon complaints at whatever point, which I hope adds to the weight of the point that I have just made. It is not immediately clear, and we have to be clear with, most importantly, tenants once this Bill is in force about where they go and how they can seek redress under the provisions of the Bill as quickly as they need to. As I said, in the case of clause 31, the process the Minister has described does not seem like it is fast enough to ensure that emergency remedial action of the kind provided for by clause 31 will happen. I hope the Government will take this and those other points away.