Jobseekers (Back to Work Schemes) Bill

Debate between Simon Hughes and Iain Duncan Smith

Tuesday 19th March 2013 Commons Chamber

[Simon Hughes]

We could have a complicated and long debate. Should people in this House, if they find themselves later in life to be unemployed and it is deemed appropriate that they are sent on mandatory work activity, be sent to work in a charity shop moving boxes and dusting shelves? One could argue that it would be good for us, and good for everybody—

[Mr Duncan Smith]

I am listening carefully to what my right hon. Friend has to say. As the Minister of State, Department for Work and Pensions, my hon. Friend the Member for Fareham (Mr Hoban), has made clear and my hon. Friend the Under-Secretary of State will make clear, all of these things are kept constantly under review. We want to improve them and that is what jobcentre staff do. They are brilliant at that, by the way, and they get better and better. My point on mandatory work activity is that it is not just work experience. It is also about changing culture: finding out whether someone is working and not declaring it; and getting people used to the idea of getting out of bed in the morning and attending somewhere where they do what they have been asked to do, because they have so got out of the habit of doing that, that even attending an interview has become a problem for them. This is not just about training; it is about getting people culturally back in line so that they can then be dealt with by advisers.

[Simon Hughes]

I absolutely understand and agree with that point. That is fine for all people of that type. In the case of my last example, the individual had been doing an internship and getting up, always being on time and being there all the time. If anybody had checked, they would have known that he had had a 100% successful record in the previous three months. There was no history of shirking, not getting up or lying in bed. Therefore, it would have been appropriate for an interview to find out about that work history, and assess and discuss what might have been appropriate.

Another constituent—a friend of mine living in Waterloo—had been out of work and claiming jobseeker’s allowance. He went to the jobcentre and was invited for an interview with Seetec, which he attended. It was about to send him to Tesco to stack shelves, but he persuaded it that there was an opportunity of mandatory work activity in a photography shop in the west end. He has photographic skills, and he persuaded Seetec, once it had spoken to the employer, that it would be a better place for him to go. I am not disputing the Secretary of State’s view that some people need to get into the culture of work, but the system fails those who are competent at work, have worked and are willing to do their bit, but get thrown into the wrong place, often to do highly inappropriate activities.

I hope that I have made it clear that I think there are underlying serious issues. I am grateful that the Secretary of State has tabled amendments and new clauses to ensure that this matter does not disappear, but comes back to us through regular reporting. My message to the House and the Government is that we need a better system, because a lot of people who are on low incomes or not working are not being well served by the system at the moment.

Romanians and Bulgarians (Benefits)

Debate between Simon Hughes and Iain Duncan Smith

Tuesday 5th March 2013 Commons Chamber

[Mr Duncan Smith]

We have had meetings about this issue with about 17 countries, all at the same time. I would list them all, but they include meetings with officials from Bulgaria, the Czech Republic, Estonia, Ireland, Germany, France and Poland. We have had meetings with all of them. There is no common position for them all, but a sub-set of those most likely to be affected—I understand that Germany and Spain are where most of the Romanians tend to be going at the moment—are very concerned about what may happen. We are discussing with them exactly how to respond. Reality is now striking many and I think the door is open for us to make a serious move on this issue.

[Simon Hughes (Bermondsey and Old Southwark) (LD)]

I commend the Secretary of State and the Government for addressing this issue, which has never been addressed before. The principle is simple: UK citizens are entitled to the benefits that come with the contribution system we inherit, whereas EU citizens—those from Ireland perhaps are excepted, because of the common travel area—should not expect greater benefits here than UK citizens should expect in other EU countries. If we could get to that position, everybody would understand it and there would be greater justice and far fewer complaints.

[Mr Duncan Smith]

I agree with my right hon. Friend. The point he makes—it is one I have made before—is that there is not an easy solution to what the Commission wants, which is to try to drive free movement as the sole and most important element in this process. However, it fails to recognise that all the nation states have very different social security systems. Many of those nations are finally beginning to say, with us, that this cannot be driven through like a coach and horses, because we control our social security systems. We have different ways of contributing and we use tax differently, so the argument we are making—I believe we will win it—is that we must be left to make those decisions. Obviously when people want to come and work, we want them to do that; the issue is when they come not to work. I think we have a strong position on changing that.

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Simon Hughes and Iain Duncan Smith

Monday 28th January 2013 Commons Chamber

[Simon Hughes (Bermondsey and Old Southwark) (LD)]

On the Government’s benefit changes for housing, foster carers have expressed their concern to me that they might be inhibited from doing their good work by the extra penalty for having a spare room. Can the Secretary of State or a Minister give me some reassurance that the amount of fostering that we currently have—and need—can continue without financial disadvantage?

[Mr Duncan Smith]

We are of course working closely with the Minister responsible at the Department for Education—the Under-Secretary of State, the hon. Member for Crewe and Nantwich (Mr Timpson)—whose record on this is unimpeachable, as my right hon. Friend knows. He also should recognise that we have laid aside £5 million specifically to help with foster carers in the situation he described. However, we are in discussions with local authorities, county councils and the Department for Education about how best the money can be used to ensure that it specifically helps foster carers in this area, so that they suffer no hardship whatever, but can continue, and we can encourage more people to become foster carers.

Welfare Benefits Up-rating Bill

Debate between Simon Hughes and Iain Duncan Smith

Monday 21st January 2013 Commons Chamber

[Simon Hughes (Bermondsey and Old Southwark) (LD)]

The Secretary of State knows that the Liberal Democrats are not comfortable about this sort of Bill, but my hon. Friend the Minister of State argued that, in difficult circumstances, we must take difficult measures. Will the Secretary of State reaffirm the Government’s commitment to taking children out of poverty, to the basic principles of the welfare state and to go on seeking to ensure that all those who cannot work through no fault of their own—carers, unemployed people and pensioners—will continue to be supported? Will he reaffirm that we intend there to be a fairer society at the end of this Government than there was at the beginning?

[Mr Duncan Smith]

That is my genuine intention. My right hon. Friend will know that his hon. Friend the Minister of State and I have worked to ensure that what we do to get the deficit down through universal credit and the other reforms—even those for pensions—will improve the lot of the poorest in society. If we take the figures on that relative income point across the period covered by the spending review, we can see that some 350,000 children net will be lifted out of poverty, even if we take into account the effect of this Bill. I can tell my right hon. Friend that that is absolutely our purpose and one that I believe we can stand by.

Welfare Reform Bill

Debate between Simon Hughes and Iain Duncan Smith

Wednesday 15th June 2011 Commons Chamber

[Mr Duncan Smith]

I agree, Mr Speaker, which is why I have done nothing but refer to the reasons for the Bill, the rationale behind it and what is in it, hence the cancer point that we have talked about.

Let me proceed to the issue of the benefit cap, which I do not think the Opposition ever wanted to get to. Our reforms are fundamentally about fairness: fairness to recipients, but also—and too often forgotten—fairness to the hard-pressed taxpayers who have to pay for those on benefits. Across a range of areas, we have made changes designed to ensure that people on benefits cannot live a lifestyle that is unattainable to those who are in work. Let us take the benefit cap—an issue on which the Opposition have got themselves in a bit of a mess. Just two days ago, the right hon. Member for Birmingham, Hodge Hill (Mr Byrne), who is now in his place, told the House:

“The cap on overall benefits…is an important part of the legislation”.—[Official Report, 13 June 2011; Vol. 529, c. 491.]

However, it is now clear that his own party is completely divided on the matter. Even late last night, the Opposition tabled an amendment that they knew they would not be allowed to vote on—a starred amendment—just so that they could posture and appease their Back Benchers, who are on the wrong side of the debate entirely. [Interruption.] No, no, the Opposition know very well that they had days to table that amendment, but they did not bother—I suppose that the right hon. Gentleman will say that he did know that there was a time limit on tabling amendments. The reality is that the Opposition are opposed to the cap. They should be honest and say that they do not want it. Indeed, even their amendment would have knocked out the entire effect of the cap.

Let me turn to conditionality, another issue in the Bill.

[Simon Hughes]

Before the Secretary of State leaves the benefit cap, let me say that I understand the reason for a national benefit cap. Does he accept, however, that colleagues across the House are concerned that in London, because of the cost of housing, there is a special issue that deserves further debate? I wonder whether he would be willing to meet colleagues from all parties, local government, the Mayor, housing providers and the Housing Minister so that we can get the problem sorted for all those with an interest in London.

[Mr Duncan Smith]

I have always said that the door is open to everybody to discuss the effects and how some of them can be ameliorated—or not, depending on what the issues are. The answer is therefore yes—as a London MP, I should join that delegation too—although I still believe that we have the right policy, because it is about balancing fairness for those hard-working people who pay their taxes who often feel that those beyond work are not working themselves.

Housing Benefit

Debate between Simon Hughes and Iain Duncan Smith

Tuesday 9th November 2010 Commons Chamber

[Mr Duncan Smith]

We have absolutely no plans to do that. Furthermore, if the right hon. Gentleman wants to engage in a sensible, constructive discussion on how we define homelessness, I am happy to do that. The point I am making about what has been going on is that Opposition Members should know better—he has an ex-housing Minister sitting next to him—and that they know full well that those definitions of “homeless” are simply not true. He should have disowned them early on, before we started this debate.

[Simon Hughes]

The Secretary of State is rightly trying to lower the temperature and to ensure that we deal in facts and not in hyperbole. Will he take this opportunity to deal with one other myth that has become common? Will he confirm that, if anyone in the private rented sector has to move because their property has become too expensive, it is not the Government’s policy that they should move to a far-off community with which they have no links, and that the intention will always be that they should ideally stay in the community or council area where they come from and where they have lived?

[Mr Duncan Smith]

That is exactly what we want and what we intend. That is what we believe, for the most part, will actually happen—and in smaller numbers than people think. In some cases, there will be short moves even within boroughs.

I was asked about impact assessments, and we are going to publish them. We are bound to do so by the legislation. I am not trying to hide from that. We published an impact assessment after the Budget, and we are going to publish them when the legislation is due. I have already said that we will do that.

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Simon Hughes and Iain Duncan Smith

Monday 19th July 2010 Commons Chamber

[Mr Duncan Smith]

I do not recognise that. The right hon. Gentleman was in a Government who completely failed to deal with youth unemployment. They ended up leaving office with higher youth unemployment than they inherited. That is not something that we want to crow about, but it is the reality. We need to do better than that, but we also face the challenge of reducing the deficit that his party’s Government left us. I recognise his interest and his compassion, but unless we put the economy right, we will not be able to exercise either.

[Simon Hughes (Bermondsey and Old Southwark) (LD)]

Will my right hon. Friend look this summer particularly at the 16-year-olds who are leaving school, to make sure that the jobcentre works not just with Connexions but with the relevant parts of the youth service to provide a much more integrated and much better informed set of opinions and advice than have been offered to young people in the past? There is an urgent need for 16-year-olds to have good advice between jobs and apprenticeships and further education.

[Mr Duncan Smith]

I absolutely guarantee to do that, and I will talk to my right hon. Friend the Minister of State about it. It is worth bearing in mind what a real challenge this is for us. I have to repeat that, over the past 14 years, that group particularly was most failed by the previous Government. Before they carry on giving us lectures about it, they should recognise that failure and probably apologise for it.

Capital Gains Tax (Rates)

Debate between Simon Hughes and Iain Duncan Smith

Monday 28th June 2010 Commons Chamber

[Mr Duncan Smith]

Indeed, we will. We shall launch a strategy in March next year and I promise my hon. Friend that I shall inform him about how it goes. As I pointed out, child poverty has risen by more than 100,000 since 2004, so when the Opposition lecture us about child poverty they ignore the facts. They spent a lot of money but they failed to meet even their targets.

[Simon Hughes (Bermondsey and Old Southwark) (LD)]

Does my right hon. Friend agree that although the welfare state is obviously necessary to protect the poor and vulnerable, it has often acted as a disincentive for people to go from being out of work to work? I know that from my constituency. Will he ensure that over the next few weeks, when we consult on the future of the welfare state, all the relevant charities, agencies and local councils, which are very knowledgeable about such things, are fully involved so that the outcome is informed by the facts and not by prejudice?

[Mr Duncan Smith]

I give my hon. Friend absolute confirmation that we shall consult widely. As he knows, we are planning to reform the benefit system so that it no longer acts as a major disincentive for people to go back to work. We have had to take decisions in the Budget, but beyond that we want to bring forward changes that make work pay—significantly for those going to work for the first time, as they understand. My comments at the weekend were about the need to recognise that often people want to move 10 or 15 miles to take a job, but they worry about the cost of travel to work or losing their house. The coalition has to look at that sort of thing to see whether we can make it easier for people to make decisions and take risks without being punished every time, as with the last Government. It is worth remembering that, of all social housing tenants—it is a falling figure—only 5% change their houses during the year, whereas 35% of low-income private tenants change. That is the problem: they are static, and they are stuck in what they do.