Enterprise and Regulatory Reform Bill

Simon Hughes Excerpts

Tuesday 16th April 2013 Commons Chamber

[Jo Swinson]

I thank the hon. Gentleman for his intervention and the work he has done on this issue over many years. I reiterate some of the concerns that we have heard from those groups. For example, GAKM UK, an organisation that represents a community officially recognised as low caste in India, fears that by enacting this provision, Parliament could undo all the work done by communities over the past 20 years to try to remove the differentiation by caste in all aspects of life. I am not saying that these are not important issues or that ultimately it would not be helpful to enact the provision, I am saying that we need to proceed with great caution, because the communities affected have significant differences of view. That is why we want to ensure that the EHRC makes a further assessment of the views and evidence on this issue, on which it will report back later this year. The Government have already said, through the work and the statement of the Under-Secretary of State for Women and Equalities, my hon. Friend the Member for Maidstone and The Weald, and through discussions in the other place, that if the assessment shows that we need to legislate, the option remains open to us.

[Simon Hughes (Bermondsey and Old Southwark) (LD)]

I have raised this issue with my hon. Friend. The amendments, on a general duty of equality and on caste discrimination, both had very large majorities in the House of Lords, and I am very sympathetic to them. Bluntly, it seems to me that the only way for the Government to get themselves off the hook is to ask the Joint Committee on Human Rights, which consists of Members from both Houses and all parties, to look urgently at both matters and make recommendations. I sit on that Committee and could make sure that that happens. I think the Committee would recommend that they be supported. I wonder whether the Minister is willing to go down that road.

[Jo Swinson]

It is not for the Government to instruct Joint Committees to undertake particular investigations.

As I was saying, the reason for caution on the part of the Government relates to a lack of evidence. The NIESR report is clear about the lack of evidence. It states that there is no clear evidence on the extent of caste discrimination and whether it is changing in the UK. Further evidence would therefore certainly be helpful in assisting the Government’s decision making. In addition to what the EHRC is doing, the Government intend to conduct a full consultation and publish a report on its outcome. If the evidence shows clearly that legislation is the right way forward, then, as I have said, powers already exist in law to extend those protections to cover caste by means of a statutory instrument.

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[Richard Fuller]

If I may say so, the hon. Gentleman could try a lot harder to be much clearer than that. I am not asking specifically about the amendment but about the provision in the Bill that the people who campaigned hard on this issue want to see. I believe their expectation is that the Labour party will support that provision, but I am hearing that it does not yet support it.

[Simon Hughes]

rose—

[Richard Fuller]

I am happy to give way to the right hon. Gentleman. Perhaps he understands the situation better.

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[Simon Hughes]

I think I am right in saying that the Opposition’s position is not consistent. If the House upholds the Lords amendment and the Government are defeated, it does not go back to the Lords, because the position will have been agreed by both Houses.

[Richard Fuller]

I am now even more confused. I will have to read carefully the comments that have been made.

For me, this is the clearest issue, and I need no further explanation. When it comes to tackling discrimination, I ask myself whether our enlightenment should be a condition of a quantum of discrimination. If so, how many career opportunities will be curtailed, and what amount of tears will be shed, as a result of harassment based on caste? Alternatively, is our enlightenment a condition of our understanding that all people deserve equality of opportunity, protected by law, regardless of their gender, race, sexual orientation, faith and caste? For me, the answer is a clear one of principle. On those grounds, and on behalf of the hundreds of my constituents who have written to me to encourage me to make the case for equality of treatment under the law, I ask the Minister to reconsider her position and accept Lords amendment 37.

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[Mr Virendra Sharma]

Thank you, Mr Deputy Speaker, for allowing me to speak in this debate on the amendment to include caste in the Bill.

Before we debate caste, we need to understand what the caste system means. It has been a deep-rooted tradition among Indian sub-continent communities for centuries. Various social reform movements of the last 1,000 years have declared discrimination on the basis of caste to be unacceptable. Many saints, rishis, social reformers and gurus have campaigned on the issue. Indeed, every page of the Sikh holy book, the Guru Granth Sahib—from which my hon. Friend the Member for Hayes and Harlington (John McDonnell) quoted—speaks, in one way or the other, against inequality in society. Many other faiths—Jainism, Buddhism—also speak against discrimination, highlighting caste before moving on to other inequalities in society.

However, after centuries, we are still talking about the fact that there is a caste system in society. It might be alien to British society, but for people who have lived or come from there, it is in them, which is why, when India gained independence from Britain, it had to pass a law—it is in the constitution—saying that nobody can discriminate against another individual in employment, service delivery or, above all, social life. Why did India have to do that if educating people or persuading them to change their habits and practices was such a simple matter? It shows that even Dr Ambedkar, Pandit Nehru, Mahatma Gandhi and many other leading members of the Indian political movement accepted that doing so was not easy. That is why that law was introduced in the constitution.

We need to understand what is in India, but we also need to understand how we are living in British society. I feel proud to represent the constituency of Ealing, Southall, in which Sikhs, Hindus, Muslims, Dalits—we are using that term now—and many other minorities from different parts of the world live. I feel proud to say in this place that we all live together peacefully, supporting each other. We have the Sikh procession, which all the communities join—I am sure that many Members who are present can speak about that as well. Whenever there are any issues in the community, we come together and address them.

There has been a change in social life as well. People are entering inter-caste marriages and there is more closeness, but there is still an element when we are talking about employment and, in certain areas, service delivery as well. The hon. Member for Reading West (Alok Sharma) asked how many cases there were, and although sometimes we do not have the details of cases, we know that such practices are going on. In previous years, before 1976, there was indirect discrimination—that is, if it was not direct discrimination—and now there is still indirect discrimination.

I would like to make one other point. We are not talking about something that is anti-Hindu, anti-Sikh or anti-Jainist or against any other high-class, high-caste community. This is not against them; it is introducing equality, so that where any individual or group feels that they are being discriminated against, they will have the legal remedy that we are introducing today.

As I have said, there is not a major issue in my constituency. I feel proud that the Sikhs and Hindus there actively promote unity among all faiths. That is why we all meet together at the processions and at many other functions. My right hon. Friend the Member for Leicester East (Keith Vaz), who is in his place, was in my constituency on Sunday when the Tamil new year was celebrated. Members of all the other religions and faith groups were present at those celebrations. There is not an issue in people’s social lives.

We have heard suggestions about placing the value of education over the value of legislation in protecting individuals against caste discrimination. Of course education is key to changing attitudes and behaviour, but it is also necessary to reduce discrimination in the long term. Legislation is necessary to ensure that any victim of discrimination is protected, and to provide legal redress against discrimination. Adding “caste” alongside “race” in section 9 of the Equality Act 2010 will reaffirm our commitment to fight prejudice of any kind and to protect any individual who feels discriminated against. I can only hope that, as a testimony to the strong unity that I have witnessed in the Hindu and Sikh communities, the amendment will never have to be used in practice.

[Simon Hughes]

I say to the Under-Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills, my hon. Friend the Member for East Dunbartonshire (Jo Swinson) that I, like many of our colleagues, support the retention of the general duty on equality. I understand the difficulty that she has in a coalition Government, in that she has to try to reflect different views, but I hope that, whatever decision is reached today, she will be able to persuade her colleagues that we should retain that duty rather than remove it.

On the caste issue, I offered a suggestion earlier on the way forward. If the Government cannot accept the amendment to make caste a basis for discrimination—which I am persuaded that we ought to support—I hope that they will at least give Parliament an early opportunity to introduce secondary legislation to allow the provision to be added to legislation this year.

[Jo Swinson]

I thank my right hon. Friend the Member for Bermondsey and Old Southwark (Simon Hughes) for what must be one of the shortest speeches of his life. With the leave of the House, I shall respond to some of the points that he and others have made, and I genuinely welcome the opportunity to do so.

The shadow Secretary of State, the hon. Member for Streatham (Mr Umunna), began by accusing the Government of making a U-turn on lettings. He failed, however, to point out his own party’s U-turn on that issue. The proposals in the Government amendment for a redress scheme bear a striking similarity to an amendment that was tabled under the previous Government by my hon. Friend the Member for Hertford and Stortford (Mr Prisk) and supported by the Conservatives and the Liberal Democrats. It would have introduced a redress scheme, but the Labour Government voted against it. That is why we are bringing forward the amendment today. It is a much more sensible provision than the one that was tabled in the other place, and it will give redress to consumers who are unfortunate enough to be the victims of letting and management agents who are not acting as they should.

The right hon. Member for Stirling (Mrs McGuire) asked where people should go for help in the absence of the EHRC helpline, and I am happy to draw her attention to the Equality Advisory Support Service that has been set up instead. Anyone who needs advice on these issues can ring the service on 0808 800 0082. That service is still available, although it is no longer supplied by the EHRC. It also works closely with the Commission to ensure that general information is passed back to inform the work of the service.

My hon. Friend the Member for Reading West (Alok Sharma) made a powerful speech on the question of caste. He was right to highlight the complexity of the issue. He also asked for confirmation that the Government were not entirely closed to the idea of legislation. I am happy to give him that confirmation, as I said earlier, and indeed as has been said in the other place. The issue is about ensuring that we get the right response. We recognise that, as the EHRC gathers the evidence for the assessment it is undertaking this year, it might ultimately recommend a view that involves legislation.

My hon. Friend the Member for Worthing West (Sir Peter Bottomley) has tabled amendments to deal with various issues, particularly a code of practice for redress. The Government consultation will of course include consideration of how the redress mechanism should operate—