Badgers and Bovine TB

Simon Hart Excerpts

Tuesday 18th October 2011 Westminster Hall

[Mrs Glindon]

I was going to raise that issue with the Minister later. The cost of policing, which will be very contentious, is estimated at approximately £200,000 a year, which is one of the things that is not addressed in the Government’s proposals. The amount of money seems to have decreased.

The Minister’s proposals for controlled shooting deviate from those practised in the randomised badger culling trial. To elaborate on what I said earlier, the animals will be shot in the field at night, instead of using the accurate and humane method of caging, trapping and shooting, which was used in the trial. Badgers are difficult to approach, and they spend a lot of their time in the undergrowth. Their physiology makes it difficult for one random shot to kill them outright.

[Simon Hart (Carmarthen West and South Pembrokeshire) (Con)]

During the 700 hours of debate on hunting in the previous Parliament, it was suggested that shooting was the humane alternative in wildlife control. Is the hon. Lady now saying that shooting is not as humane as it was when it was debated in the previous Parliament?

[Mrs Glindon]

I was not an MP at that time and did not follow that debate, but methods of shooting can be debated here.

--- Later in debate ---

[Simon Hart (Carmarthen West and South Pembrokeshire) (Con)]

Thank you for the opportunity to speak in the debate, Mr Crausby.

To provide some background, last week, at a place called Broomhill farm near where I live in Pembrokeshire, the home of my constituency agent, 11 cattle were reactors to a TB test. Shortly afterwards, it was discovered that they could not be taken away for slaughter because four of them were in-calf heifers. Therefore, those animals, bred with great care and attention by the family, had to be shot on the yard in front of the son and daughter who were aspiring to grow the farm in the way that we are all encouraging them to, and with all the accompanying trauma. We talk about compensation and, yes, of course there will be compensation for the animals concerned, but there will not be compensation for the calves within them, there will not be compensation for the reduction in the milk yield, there will not be compensation for the additional buildings that have had to be put in place over the years for handling, because of the lack of ability to move animals around, and there will not be compensation for the trauma that that family and others have been subject to over a long period.

In a sense it would be nice to be able to say to the House that that story was unusual, but the truth is, as we all know, that nothing at all about it is unusual. Everyone with a constituency affected by the disease has similar tales to tell. Frankly, there have been 60 years of discussion, 60 years of promises, 60 years of let-downs, 60 years of contradictory science and 60 years of politicians taking the farming community to the brink and then back again, as we have seen in the Welsh Assembly. The evidence was clear, the proposals and everything were in place to embrace at long last some degree of control, but what happens? There is an election. The only thing that changes is the election result and the whole thing goes back to square one. Is it any wonder that farming communities around Britain have lost faith in politicians’ ability to deliver some kind of progress—I will come back to that—on the issue? Thousands of cattle have been killed, as the hon. Member for North Tyneside (Mrs Glindon) mentioned, millions of pounds of taxpayers’ money has been wasted, businesses have been destroyed and families broken up and farmers have left the industry, at times in droves—not solely because of the impact of the disease over so many years, but in part.

If I can bring the debate back to human beings—a little more about the human cost and a little less about the animal cost—we might be going in the right direction. Let us be honest: such an impact on any other industry in the UK and over such a long period would have been completely intolerable, but for some strange reason we have stood back and tolerated it in our farming industry, despite the human and financial costs discussed. The Government are absolutely right to draw a line and say, “Enough is enough,” and to come forward with a consultation process—let us not forget that we are still in the consultation phase and that no final decisions have been taken. It is right for farmers, taxpayers, cattle, businesses and—I say to the hon. Member for Bristol East (Kerry McCarthy), who has now left the Chamber for the second time—badgers. It strikes me as odd that during the debate we have almost seemed to be frozen with fear at the prospect of curing a disease which itself has a negative impact on the badger population. As a constituency MP representing a rural seat a long way from Westminster, I find it frustrating that so little attention has been devoted to the welfare of badgers. We seem to forget all that. The idea that we should close our eyes and somehow badgers will live happily ever after is utterly naive and does nothing for the overall thrust of most welfarists and conservationists—as opposed to preservationists—that we should look after the health of the wild animal population as much as that of the husbanded population, and balance between them, just as we should look after those who are charged with the interests of both.

[Mr Gray]

My hon. Friend is familiar with scenes such as one described to me by a farmer in my constituency. When the farmer turned on the lights in the yard in the middle of the night, he saw what he thought were 30 to 40 badgers, full of TB, staggering around and unable to stand up. Those badgers could not be helped even if we had a vaccine, because they are ill badgers; they need to be destroyed, and the only sensible way to destroy them is by shooting them. My hon. Friend makes an extremely good point.

[Simon Hart]

It is as much a problem in North Wiltshire as in west Wales and other areas represented in the debate.

Someone said to me over the weekend, “Of course the problem isn’t the disease, the problem is the policy.” I have a certain sympathy with that view, formed over the years we have been studying the issue. The Minister mentioned in one of his interventions the legal stranglehold of the European Union—I do not think that you, Mr Crausby, would thank us if we went into an EU debate now, but it appears absolutely correct that the chances of us being able to introduce in the necessary time a cattle vaccination, which is effective and cost-effective, seems unlikely at this moment in the process. That leaves various other options.

As I suspect everyone is, I am rather in favour of cattle vaccination, if only it were so simple. I suspect that the Minister would agree—for no other purpose than to help his blood pressure when attending debates such as this one perhaps—if it were possible to take the problem away with a magic potion which could somehow be administered to cattle or badgers, but it is not that simple. The cattle vaccination is estimated to be only about 60% effective, even if we could start administering it tomorrow. I also agree with my hon. Friend the Member for North Antrim (Ian Paisley), who spoke about badger vaccination. To be honest, I am sceptical about the practical possibilities. I live in a fairly remote part of west Wales and within a mile of my house are 20 badger setts, which are all in difficult places. They are not nicely situated in the middle of fields but are in quarries, under buildings and in the most awkward places imaginable. The idea that someone would have the wherewithal, the patience, the money, the expertise and everything else required to trap, inoculate and test or whatever frankly makes no practical sense. Of course vaccinations will form an important part of the final eradication of the disease, and the sooner the better—we can all agree on that.

One simple solution, however, is not what is on offer. We must combine testing and stricter or proper monitoring of cattle movements throughout the UK with sensible culling proposals. I am talking about culling where appropriate, under proper supervision and in line with the consultation documents supplied by the Minister. It is perfectly possible to undertake a well-controlled, humane cull in certain areas, as the Welsh Assembly demonstrated before it had the rug pulled from beneath its feet. A combination of things will lead to final eradication. People who think there is some magic pill out there which can be dished out and is cheap, effective and imminent are deluding themselves. We should take much greater notice of the evidence before us than we have so far in the debate.

I suspect that the goal for all of us is something that is easy, effective, cheap and, above, all, imminent. It is absolutely right, legally, morally and practically that the Government wish to consult on the issue, and we look forward to the final findings before too long. However, let us not underestimate—I hope that the Government will not do so—some of the practical obstacles that will present themselves, not only to vaccination, but to the controlled culling that they have set out.

Above all, the Government should not be half-hearted. They have the evidence they need. They have, if nothing else, reams and reams of human examples, which demonstrate to everyone in the House why it is so important to bring the curtain down on this appalling disease. I have been told that the badger is a political animal, and puts the frighteners on hon. Members on both sides of the House when it comes to making a bold, sensible and evidence-based decision. I suggest to the Minister that there is never a bad time to do the right thing, and now is the time to do the right thing. I commend his proposals.

Bovine TB

Simon Hart Excerpts

Tuesday 19th July 2011 Commons Chamber

[Mrs Spelman]

I can give the hon. Gentleman an assurance on that point. Not only are we putting resources behind the ongoing research and development required for an oral badger vaccine and a cattle vaccine, but both the Minister of State and I have been to see the relevant commissioner at the European Commission to discuss how we can accelerate an acceptance at the European level of the need for a change in the law to allow the vaccination of cattle. The £20 million that we have committed to vaccines over the next five years is evidence of how seriously we take that quest.

[Simon Hart (Carmarthen West and South Pembrokeshire) (Con)]

I warmly commend the Secretary of State for having the bravery to tackle this dreadful disease, which has heaped so much misery on farmers and indeed badgers. She will be aware that under the Labour Government 275,000 cattle were killed, some needlessly, at a cost of £700 million to the taxpayer. We owe it to farmers and wildlife—and above all to taxpayers—to get on with this job efficiently.

[Mrs Spelman]

As I have made clear, if we do nothing the bill for the taxpayer will mount to £1 billion over the next 10 years. That is a significant fact and we owe it to the taxpayer to try to do something about it.

Dangerous Dogs

Simon Hart Excerpts

Wednesday 6th July 2011 Westminster Hall

[Simon Hart (Carmarthen West and South Pembrokeshire) (Con)]

I am grateful to you, Mr Bayley, for allowing me to speak now. I join in the congratulations for my hon. Friend the Member for Romsey and Southampton North (Caroline Nokes).

I will deal with two issues, one of which is to add to the momentum about consolidation, and the other is to touch on the law of unintended consequences. I have been fascinated and to some extent enlightened by the rare outbreak of consensus among all parties—we seldom hear so many hon. Members making the same points for the right reasons in Westminster Hall or the main Chamber—but one issue does concern me. There has been much reference to evidence and statistics that suggest an increase in attacks by dangerous dogs or, indeed, by dogs. Is that a trend with evidence to which the Minister can refer us, or is there simply a greater awareness or reporting of such incidents? Is there perhaps greater enforcement of which we are not aware, because we might not be privy to the statistics, and can the Minister put us right?

Another important point was the reference to the Dangerous Dogs Act 1991 as amended. If ever there was an example of a piece of legislation that has clearly had no effect, the 1991 Act is surely it. Many of the speeches made today were made then as well, back in 1991, with just as much passion and feeling. Legislation was forthcoming, and those in Parliament at the time presumably felt that they had done the right thing by voting for the legislation; yet, a few years on, here we are, having the same debate and referring to statistics that appear to have got worse rather than better. So I ask the Minister to exercise some caution in thinking that the solution to the problem mentioned by so many Members is simply further legislation. Unless we deal with the problem of enforcement, such legislation will serve only to restrict legitimate dog owners, while not restricting illegitimate ones, which is contrary to what we are all attempting to do.

I want to touch on the six pieces of existing legislation, although I will not go into them all. There are provisions in the Dogs Act 1871, as amended in 1989, for some civil recourse for people such as postmen who might be the victims of vicious dog attacks. I note that no one has highlighted the plight of poor old parliamentary candidates—apart from my hon. Friend the Member for Romsey and Southampton North, who touched on the issue—who might also find themselves being attacked on private property.

[Angela Smith]

To satisfy the hon. Gentleman, I put on the record that I was attacked in the general election last year, in precisely the circumstances outlined earlier—the hand through the letter box and the dog on the other side—so I sympathise with the plight of parliamentary candidates in elections.

[Simon Hart]

I do not think that there would be much public sympathy for our plight, but it might be the only area in which we could generate some sympathy for ourselves. That is why I made the point. I accept that such an incident is a civil rather than a criminal matter, so that might need some attention as part of any consolidation process that follows. We must also not overlook the Animal Welfare Act 2006 or the Policing and Crime Act 2009, which do at least provide an opportunity for injunctions forbidding ownership.

As other Members have mentioned, there is therefore quite a lot of legislation, dealing with quite a lot of issues, varying from using dogs as a form of weapon to using dogs in a way that might cause them suffering, let alone the people that they might come into contact with—indeed, there is a power to prevent some people from owning dogs at all. Such provisions already exist, suggesting that instead of new legislation necessarily being the solution, the proper and cross-departmental consolidation of existing legislation might be the way to proceed.

I also want to touch on the law of unintended consequences. There are some grey areas in what constitutes a dangerous dog or activity that might cause alarm and distress to members of the public. Plenty of dog owners have fallen foul of concerned if not mischievous people who are worried that the activity of a dog might be dangerous, although it is not at all. We must protect those whose livelihoods depend on working dogs. There is a distinct line to be drawn between legitimate scrutiny by law enforcement agencies and individuals, and people who may simply be caught up as a consequence of owning a dog responsibly and thoughtfully, but which might seem to an outsider to pose a danger. There have been numerous examples of people who have fallen foul of that distinction.

This debate has shown, if nothing else, that the Dangerous Dogs Act 1991 did not have the desired effect, nor did the Dangerous Dogs (Amendment) Act 1997. Clearly, there is much work to be done on the activities of irresponsible dog owners, for which the dog usually gets the blame. One wonders whether some of the measures for dog control notices that have been suggested or are in place would be better applied to the owner instead of the dog. The point raised by my hon. Friend the Member for Romsey and Southampton North about attitude and education is crucial. I fiercely defend the Minister’s position that the Government are not bossy and that it is not their business to interfere with people’s daily lives, but there is line to be drawn.

With a little knowledge, a lot of progress can be made in persuading, educating and informing people about the difference between irresponsible dog ownership and responsible dog ownership, and that could be easily and cheaply achieved. Consolidation of existing legislation, coupled with other measures, would be a sensible and proportionate way forward.

Oral Answers to Questions

Simon Hart Excerpts

Thursday 30th June 2011 Commons Chamber

[Mr Paice]

My hon. Friend is right to stress the need for further policies to control TB. As I said earlier, we will make announcements fairly soon—before the House rises, we hope—on our proposals regarding badgers, and about wider cattle-to-cattle measures. I assure my hon. Friend and the House that the status quo, do-nothing agenda is not acceptable. Calculations show that if we do nothing and things stay as they are, it will cost the taxpayer £1 billion over the next 10 years.

[Simon Hart (Carmarthen West and South Pembrokeshire) (Con)]

rose—

[Mr Speaker]

Order. The question is specifically about West Worcestershire, and Carmarthen West and South Pembrokeshire is a little distance from there.

Wild Animals (Circuses)

Simon Hart Excerpts

Thursday 23rd June 2011 Commons Chamber

[Mr Offord]

I am certainly not aware of any cases under human rights legislation, and the situation involves not just 200 local authorities, but countries and principalities in countries, including Austria, Croatia, the Czech Republic, Denmark, Estonia, Finland, Greece, Hungary, Ireland, Poland, Portugal, Spain and Sweden. All those countries have to decided to take that suggested approach, yet we are once again kowtowing to the European Courts.

[Simon Hart (Carmarthen West and South Pembrokeshire) (Con)]

On human rights, does my hon. Friend accept that it takes only one person to challenge this decision in order to delay for a number of years the process that every Member seems to want, whereas sensible regulation would achieve the same aims over a much shorter time?

[Mr Offord]

I suggest, as others have already urged, that we take a lead on the matter. As I have said, I have had some experience with the Human Rights Act this week, but when people use it they find that many in officialdom bow down and decide that, suddenly, it is a very important issue and that those people will get away with what they are trying to achieve.

In summary, case law from the European Court of Human Rights indicates that a ban would be within the “margin of appreciation” afforded to the United Kingdom. If a ban is proposed because it is considered cruel or ethically wrong in itself to make wild animals perform in circuses in the United Kingdom, as opposed to a ban being proposed because welfare standards cannot be guaranteed, then a ban is the only measure that will achieve that public interest aim and is therefore automatically proportionate.

Accordingly, a ban will not breach the European convention on human rights, and as a ban is only a control on the use of wild animals in circuses and therefore does not deprive the owner of the animal itself or of their ability to use it for commercial purposes, there is a strong presumption against compensation being awarded to persons who suffer any loss as a result of the ban. If the Government decide to implement a ban, it will not be as revolutionary as we have heard, given the 200 local authorities and the other countries that have been mentioned.

I do not believe that animals should be subjected to the conditions of circus life. Regular transport, cramped and bare temporary housing, forced training and performance, loud noises and crowds of people are all typical and often unavoidable realities for such animals. Therefore, unless the Government give us a time frame for a ban on animals in circuses, I will vote for the motion.

--- Later in debate ---

[Simon Hart (Carmarthen West and South Pembrokeshire) (Con)]

I am not a fan of wild animals in circuses, I would not take my children to see them or go myself and I think that the quicker we can move to a situation in which they do not exist the better. I do not even like dancing dogs on Britain’s Got Talent very much—I think it is demeaning for the owner and the dog—so I strongly sympathise with many of the arguments that have been put forward this afternoon. However, what I like even less is taking a populist route because it seems to be the easy one against, sometimes, principle and evidence. We are charged, whether we like it or not, with taking a responsible approach to these things, which is sometimes difficult in the face of overwhelming and well-targeted pressure on us as MPs. It seems to me that we are making this more difficult for ourselves by confusing an argument about ethics and morality with one about legal enforceability. This has been complicated by the haunting image of possible challenges in the European Court.

However, let me curtail my contribution. Regulation can work. I simply do not buy the argument that it would somehow open up a Pandora’s box. If we are sensible about regulation, not only can we improve animal welfare standards and move to a situation in which animals in circuses are a thing of the past, but we can do it without putting the taxpayer at risk of having to fork out for a lengthy, time-consuming and very expensive EU challenge. We can do it in reasonably quick time and without the need for primary legislation. The Government were right about this 10 days ago when the Minister spoke in Westminster Hall and nothing has changed in the intervening 10 days. It seems to me that if he is genuine to his word, as I am sure he is, we can achieve everything that everybody in the House wants without all the nonsense, cost and threat to the taxpayer that we have been talking about. I shall be voting against the motion tonight and commending the Government’s approach.

[Several hon. Members]

rose—

Wild Animals (Circuses)

Simon Hart Excerpts

Wednesday 8th June 2011 Westminster Hall

[Robert Flello (Stoke-on-Trent South) (Lab)]

I am disappointed that I had to ask Mr Speaker for this morning’s debate, disappointed that the Minister has had to come to the House to try yet again to defend his position and disappointed that the Government are all over the place on the question of wild animals in circuses.

I am grateful for the support of Members from both sides of the House, and I know that many loyal Government Members will be saddened that they should have to raise the matter. I thank those Members who are here today and those who have sent apologies for not being able to attend; this debate clashes with other business of the House and some Members who wanted to attend cannot do so. However, the hon. Members for Belfast East (Naomi Long), for Manchester, Withington (Mr Leech), for Truro and Falmouth (Sarah Newton), for Brighton, Pavilion (Caroline Lucas), for St Ives (Andrew George) and for Chippenham (Duncan Hames) and others are present, and I am grateful to them for attending.

I realise that after the forestry U-turn, the Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs cannot see the wood for the trees, but are Ministers really saying that the thousands of people who have signed The Independent’s online petition are wrong, that the 94.5% who responded to the consultation are wrong, or—dare I say it—that the vast majority of the British public are wrong? I understand that the Secretary of State has said that most people would prefer not to see wild animals performing in circuses. The British Veterinary Association has said that

“the welfare needs of non-domesticated, wild animals cannot be met within the environment of a travelling circus; especially in terms of accommodation and the ability to express normal behaviour. A licensing scheme will not address these issues.”

Despite all those people saying that 21st century Britain is no longer willing to allow wild animals to perform in travelling circuses, we have a Government and a Department that are dithering and scrabbling to find the flimsiest of arguments to avoid a ban. The Secretary of State is looking to implement a licensing scheme. It is likely to cost £1 million, but it will not resolve the issue—and I thought that the Government were opposed to new regulations and wanted to save money.

Why can DEFRA find time to bring in a new licensing scheme and £1 million to underwrite it, but it cannot pursue a ban? It cannot still be awaiting the consultation results, because they were available more than a year ago. It cannot be starting from scratch, as I understand from the Minister responsible for animal welfare in the last Labour Government that all the paperwork was in the Department’s red box last March. Is it that the Minister does not know his Annies from his Nellies? No; I think that he has learned that lesson. Perhaps it is because a huge number of circuses and animals are involved. No, only four circuses are involved—not 40 or 400, but four—and about 40 or so beautiful wild animals. At least, that is how many there are now, but under this marvellous licensing scheme it could well become 60, or 100 or more.

Are someone’s human rights being violated? The Minister of State seemed to think so, given his answer to an urgent question in the House on 19 May, yet DEFRA’s impact assessment, which was undertaken as part of the consultation, states that there are no human rights aspects. The thought that someone’s human rights could be infringed by banning wild animals from circuses would make a mockery of all rights.

[Simon Hart (Carmarthen West and South Pembrokeshire) (Con)]

Is there a reason why the previous Labour Government failed to address any of these issues in 13 years of government?

[Robert Flello]

I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for raising that point, but he is not correct. When the Animal Welfare Act 2006 was going through the House, we debated banning the use of wild animals and concluded that a report—the Radford report, which I shall come to in a moment—should be commissioned. Indeed, by March 2010 a ban was on the cards.

--- Later in debate ---

[Simon Hart (Carmarthen West and South Pembrokeshire) (Con)]

I, too, congratulate the hon. Member for Stoke-on-Trent South (Robert Flello) on securing the debate. I should apologise for referring to him earlier, I think, as my hon. Friend. Members may not know that we recently spent a week together in a tent in the Falkland Islands, where I became friendlier than I had perhaps intended—[Interruption.] That is reflected in his comments.

I am not here to make a speech in favour of wild animals in circuses. Such spectacles hold no great attraction for me—I would not go to one myself or take my children to see one. However, I have always been fundamentally opposed to the politically tempting prospect of abolishing things because it suits a particular political narrative. We have seen that total bans do not necessarily result in actual total bans and do not necessarily produce the welfare benefits that some passionate and articulate advocates suggest. Having listened to the debate so far, I am concerned that we are confusing two things which, to my mind, are absolutely different—the welfare of wild animals in circuses and the legality of abolition.

It is right and proper that we should debate the welfare of wild animals, and part of that debate should be about separating cruelty from suffering. Something that has beset animal welfare debates in this House for some time is the fact that we sometimes complicate the emotive description of the treatment of animals in the context of cruelty, which is not a scientific measurement, with that of suffering, which is or can be. We should perhaps put ourselves in a position to legislate on the back of reports and debates on the issue of wild animals in circuses, but that is entirely different from the debate on the legality of abolition.

It is absolutely proper that any Government take the legal advice that they are offered. We simply cannot go around ignoring legal advice on the basis that using expressions such as “total ban” plays to our popular instincts. People will sue us, and the taxpayer will pay if we get it wrong.

[Mr Leech]

Does the hon. Gentleman accept that it would be far better for the Government to publish the legal advice, so we can all have a look at it?

--- Later in debate ---

[Simon Hart]

I am sure that the Minister will come to that. There is always sensitivity when it comes to the publication of legal advice, particularly when cases are, or are possibly, in play. I do not think that there is necessarily anything to be suspicious about; I do not necessarily smell a conspiracy just because a Department fails to publish advice when we demand it. I am sure that the Minister will, as usual, give a compelling answer to the hon. Gentleman’s question.

The Department is absolutely right rigidly to stick to principle and evidence when it comes to decisions on legislating in favour of abolition or of regulation. In many debates on animal-related issues in this House over the years, Ministers have stood up and thumped the table, stressing their commitment to evidence and principle, and have then promptly gone and legislated in the absence of both. That has had long-term consequences for the animals concerned, which have failed to benefit from the legislation, and also for the taxpayer, who has been forced to pick up enormous legal bills—several of which I have been unashamedly responsible for—as the process is challenged in every court in the UK and further afield. It is absolutely proper that the Department should avoid getting itself into that particular pickle.

I can see us moving to a situation, over a period of time—a time scale with which I would be entirely comfortable—in which we no longer see wild animals used in circuses but neither do we subject the taxpayer to undue expense as a result of our over-enthusiasm to do something that is simply popular on the back of an electronic campaign that might catch the mood of the day.

[Mr Russell Brown (Dumfries and Galloway) (Lab)]

The hon. Gentleman has mentioned the taxpayer. The taxpayer comes in a variety of forms, one of which is the council tax payer. The scheme that DEFRA has proposed would place an additional burden on council tax payers, because it would fall to local authorities to license and to inspect but, ridiculously, they would not have the power to prosecute.

[Simon Hart]

I am grateful for that contribution, but I am not entirely sure that I sympathise with the hon. Gentleman’s position. The local authorities are in a more powerful position than he suggests in that they have the ability, presumably, not to regulate or not to license. Despite what the Government may say, that is, to some extent, a local authority decision. I do not want to steal the Minister’s ground on that issue as well, because he will almost certainly deal with it himself.

[Naomi Long]

Will the hon. Gentleman give way?

[Simon Hart]

I was into my final gasp, but go on.

[Naomi Long]

I thank the hon. Gentleman for giving way at such a late stage in his speech. He has said that he wants to move to a situation in which wild animals are no longer used in circuses. It is hard, however, to see how regulation would bring that about, because its use would almost be an acceptance that it is appropriate to have wild animals in circuses and that the only issue is the regulation of welfare. My argument is that it is inappropriate for wild animals to be held in such circumstances, because the circus environment is by its very nature not an appropriate place for them.

[Simon Hart]

The hon. Lady’s point is fair, but it goes back to my earlier comment about having to separate the moral, ethical argument about the appropriateness of wild animals in circuses from the legality of abolition legislation. Those things are entirely different; they always have been; and there is nothing particularly new about that. I am fundamentally not an abolitionist—I dislike banning things. I happen to dislike abolition not because I am a 1960s liberal but because I often see examples of the consequences of legislation not being the same as the intention of those who proposed it in the first place. It would be fine for me if we moved to a situation in which the circuses—I think there are only two or three—that use wild animals were not using them in five years’ time without our having to go through various legal challenges. Hon. Members and the Minister might take a different view, but that is my position, which I think strikes the right balance between trying to attain the highest possible welfare standards and not compromising the taxpayer’s interests.

[Penny Mordaunt (Portsmouth North) (Con)]

Will my hon. Friend give way?

[Simon Hart]

I will never finish at this rate, but of course.

[Penny Mordaunt]

I thank my hon. Friend for giving way. I have great sympathy with what he has said about finding a pragmatic solution that is good value for the taxpayer, but does he accept that even if the legal advice is correct, a legal challenge might be unlikely? I have a unique perspective on the issue, because I used to be a magician’s assistant. That was my first job, before I gave up that sensible career path for this crazy world, and I am happy to report that the only creature harmed in the shows in which I was involved was, frequently, me. I have some knowledge of the sector, and I think that a legal challenge would be unlikely. We have a pragmatic opportunity. Fewer than 40 animals would need to be rehomed. A ban seems to be the most pragmatic way forward.

[Simon Hart]

My hon. Friend makes an interesting contribution, particularly regarding her downward career path from magician’s assistant to politician. I must confess that I am not overly sympathetic to the process, for the reasons that I have given. Part of me is hugely resistant to the theory that the most pragmatic approach is simply to strike a red pen through an activity, because it suits our political agenda to do so. History is littered with examples of our having fallen for that temptation only to regret it at our leisure and expense.

I will finish on this point. I do not like making cheap political observations too often, but I will make another one now. We cannot ignore the fact that we have lived through 13 years of Labour Administrations who made a lot of noise about such subjects yet failed to do anything about them. Nothing much changed over those 13 years as far as wild animals in circuses were concerned. I hope that my south Atlantic colleague the hon. Member for Stoke-on-Trent South will forgive me for saying that it is a little rich to come here and lay the blame fully at the foot of the current Administration, when his party had such an opportunity to deal with the matter itself.

Farming (Droughts)

Simon Hart Excerpts

Monday 16th May 2011 Commons Chamber

[Dr Coffey]

I share my hon. and learned Friend’s great concern. More than 10 of us are in the House, which is unusual for an Adjournment debate. Hon. Friends present represent rural constituencies and urban constituencies. Given that some of our colleagues from across the way claim to represent rural areas, their farmers and constituents will be disappointed.

My hon. and learned Friend is absolutely right to say that this situation will come to impact on every single person in this country. One of the challenges that our farmers face is that irrigation is needed to meet the quality standards that our supermarkets demand for what they will sell on their shelves. This is also about the price that we are prepared to pay for our food. There is an impact not just on the price of a potato or an onion, but on the feed for our livestock because of a lack of forage and hay, which will have repercussions next winter. We will all pay a heavy price for that.

[Simon Hart (Carmarthen West and South Pembrokeshire) (Con)]

My hon. Friend might be surprised to hear a Member from west Wales complaining about the lack of rain, but does she agree that her point about feed price will have a significant downstream effect on dairy producers, who are beginning to realise that their industry will be affected in six to eight months’ time?

Pig Farming

Simon Hart Excerpts

Wednesday 23rd March 2011 Westminster Hall

[Mr Bacon]

They certainly do. They inspect or employ auditors independently to inspect British farms and say—Tesco has been saying this in correspondence with me over the past few days—that they do the same in relation to their foreign supply chain. I fear, however, that, when they have promotions at the discounted end of the market, that audit trail may run out and the provenance will not always be as clear as it should be.

Hon. Members may be disturbed to hear that there is evidence to suggest that British pork products are quietly being withdrawn from the shelves of our largest supermarkets and displaced by imports. Data from Kantar Worldpanel show that, over the past three years, the volume of pork on sale in British supermarkets that does not clearly identify a specific country of origin has increased, with a spike in sales of non-British pork having been recorded recently, in the past few months of this year and late last year.

Families in my constituency and across Britain who make their living from farming pigs may find their weekly shop at the local supermarket increasingly dispiriting. In-store observation by BPEX suggests that an overall increase in pork sales is being driven by promotional sales of imported pork that does not carry a quality mark. Imported pork has replaced British pork carrying either the quality standard or the red tractor. Where major supermarkets have run promotions on pig products that are multi-buy packs or are heavily discounted on price, it is mostly imported pork. According to BPEX, just one in five pork loins promoted by Sainsbury’s two weeks ago was British, Asda’s three for £10 promotion only included imported pork, and anecdotal evidence from BPEX members suggests that Tesco’s recent in-store promotion on the so-called gondola end—end of aisle—of three pork products for £10 also featured only Danish or Dutch meat.

That is borne out by Pork Watch, the bi-monthly survey of supermarkets conducted by representatives of the National Pig Association and by Ladies in Pigs. The most recent survey found that the overall number of pork facings—the shelf space allocated to a product line—has fallen from 80% in November last year to 77% in February, which is the lowest figure for the past 12 months. Facings of the red tractor or the quality standard mark for pork—both indicators that British welfare standards have been adhered to—have also fallen slightly from 75% to 73%, after making small gains last year. It is worth taking a particularly close look at Pork Watch’s findings on Tesco: it found that facings of “British” on Tesco pork had tumbled from 73% to 59% and red tractor facings had slumped from 63% to 55%—a fall of 14 percentage points in the British category, which is the largest decline of facings of “British” on pork in any British supermarket. About half of the pork on Tesco’s shelves does not bear the red tractor, which makes it unlikely that imported pork meets the UK’s welfare standards in all cases, despite Tesco’s claim that its overseas suppliers’ standards “broadly equate” to red tractor standards.

Let us be in no doubt that the situation facing British pig farmers is extremely serious. Of course, neither retailers, individual farmers, their industry bodies nor Members of Parliament can do much to influence world commodity prices. Feed is expensive because cereals are expensive, and that looks unlikely to change in the near future.

[Simon Hart (Carmarthen West and South Pembrokeshire) (Con)]

I hope that my hon. Friend can help me on one point. Presumably, the story he is telling ends with pig farmers leaving the industry. If that is the case, is the situation not serious for not just pig farmers, but for agriculture and indeed rural Britain as a whole? I suggest that problem goes much further than pig farming.

[Mr Bacon]

It does go much further than pig farming. People are beginning to exit the industry and many are worried about whether they can expect to still be in the industry by the end of this year. My point is that if we have a stronger pig farming and farming sector, that is good for Britain, for the rural economy and for the economy as a whole, and that that is good for the Tescos of this world and their like. If the supermarkets took a longer-term view, rather than just worrying about the next three months and the next quarterly results, it would be better for them in the end. It is not an accident that Morrisons’ fresh meat sales have increased by 12% since it announced its 100% British pork policy. I urge supermarkets that are not currently doing so to take a more pro-British stance. It is incumbent on institutions—and such companies are institutions—of the like, size and power of Tesco to do more than just think about one set of shareholders; they have to think about the entire community of stakeholders, of which they form such a powerful part.

Let me give an example. Tesco states on its website that it supports British farmers, and hon. Members will have probably seen the signs as they go into Tesco showing that it is the biggest customer of British agriculture. On its website, it identifies 27 farmers whom it supports: five produce apples and pears, five produce cheese, nine produce either beef or lamb or a combination of the two, one produces watercress, one produces rapeseed oil and one produces milk. There is not a single pig farmer among the 27.

--- Later in debate ---

[Dr Poulter]

I thank my hon. Friend for that clarification, which makes the point even more forcefully. As he says, only 30% of imported pork in our supermarkets meets UK standards, according to BPEX. We need action from the Government to put the onus on supermarkets to show greater corporate responsibility and to provide a more level playing field for British food producers and the goods they sell.

[Simon Hart]

The Minister might be able to comment on the appropriateness and legality of using the planning system to impose such conditions on supermarkets.

[Dr Poulter]

I thank my hon. Friend for that, and I look forward to the Minister covering that that in his concluding remarks.

Oral Answers to Questions

Simon Hart Excerpts

Thursday 17th March 2011 Commons Chamber

[Mr Paice]

I am sure that consumers have heard what my hon. Friend says without me getting into an internecine war between retailers. What really matters is that the consumer is properly informed of the benefits of buying British pigmeat. That is why the Government are keen, as he is, on country of origin labelling.

[Simon Hart (Carmarthen West and South Pembrokeshire) (Con)]

3. What representations she has received on the effects of the use of sky lanterns on livestock and livestock feed.

[The Minister of State, Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Mr James Paice)]

I have received a number of representations regarding the risks to livestock from releasing sky lanterns. I share those concerns and urge consumers to think twice before releasing lanterns. DEFRA officials are working with other Departments and the farming unions to see what action can be taken to reduce risks. The Department for Business, Innovation and Skills has written to local authority trading standards officials to encourage them to work with importers and manufacturers, and we are taking other actions.

[Simon Hart]

The Minister will be aware of that other great hazard facing farmers and livestock—namely fly-tipping, which currently costs taxpayers something like £1 million per week. Will he assure us that that will be addressed in the Government’s waste strategy, and to coin a phrase, will he be tough on grime, and tough on the causes of grime?

[Mr Paice]

I do not wish to open that can of worms, but I can assure my hon. Friend that we very much recognise the problem of fly-tipping and that it will be addressed in the waste review.

Oral Answers to Questions

Simon Hart Excerpts

Thursday 3rd February 2011 Commons Chamber

[Mrs Spelman]

We have been proactive in our engagement with all the devolved Administrations, and recognise the importance of direct payments to farmers. It is that assurance that the devolved Administrations are seeking, and I confirm that Ministers understand the challenges of farming in less favoured areas and will defend those interests.

[Simon Hart (Carmarthen West and South Pembrokeshire) (Con)]

T8. Can the Minister offer any help and support to the monks of Caldey island off the south Pembrokeshire coast in their attempts to introduce the red squirrel to their island?

[Richard Benyon]

I applaud the monks, and their Member of Parliament, for their support for this scheme. Like me, they have seen what has happened in Anglesey and the eradication of the grey squirrel there, which has almost been achieved. That will bring benefits for the regeneration of the red squirrel, and we are looking at it closely in connection with our project in the north of England.