High Speed Rail (Scotland)

Sheila Gilmore Excerpts

Tuesday 6th November 2012 Westminster Hall

[Sheila Gilmore (Edinburgh East) (Lab)]

It is a pleasure to speak under your chairmanship, Mr Chope. I sought the debate because of the huge importance that high-speed rail has for us in Scotland—for our economy and for Scotland’s development over a long period into the future. Obviously, like many other Scottish MPs, I have a personal interest: when Parliament is sitting, I spend nearly 10 hours a week sitting in trains. I quite enjoy it and I can get a lot done, but I think we are on the cusp of being able to achieve a modal shift in the way that people travel between Scotland and London. That is important, including for environmental reasons, because at the moment the journey time is such that on some occasions or in some circumstances, flying seems preferable. That adds to the pressure on London airports. If we could make progress on rail, it would help us to meet our environmental targets.

This debate follows a debate earlier this year led by my hon. Friend the Member for Glenrothes (Lindsay Roy). Since then, two things have happened. First, we have a new Secretary of State and a new Minister of State. Secondly, and perhaps even more important, the new Secretary of State made a very important commitment in his speech at the Conservative party conference last month. This is what he said:

“At the start of this year, the government committed to build a new line not just to Birmingham but on to Manchester and Leeds. Soon, I’ll publish detailed plans for the route north of Birmingham, but I want even more parts of our country to benefit. So we’re launching a study on the way to get fast journeys further north still, with the aim of getting the journey from Scotland to London to under three hours and making sure the north-east benefits too, because this will be a scheme for every person in Britain.”

[Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP)]

To follow on from what the hon. Lady is saying, this scheme will benefit everyone in the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland. Does she envisage this high-speed rail having contact with Larne, Cairnryan and Stranraer, thereby ensuring that the people of Northern Ireland can also benefit from the high-speed rail link, which ultimately will take them to London? Based on a very significant business plan—

[Mr Christopher Chope (in the Chair)]

Order. We must keep interventions short.

[Sheila Gilmore]

I thank the hon. Member for Strangford (Jim Shannon) for his intervention. I am sorry, but I was reading out a quote; it was the speaker of those words who stopped at Britain and did not talk about the United Kingdom. I think that any options that can be built in for some of these things would be very useful. Anyone who has ever travelled to Stranraer using the current arrangements will know just how difficult that is. It is a big disadvantage for both Northern Ireland and Scotland that we do not have a particularly good rail link down to the ferry ports.

In the debate in April, we talked about getting the journey time down to three and a half hours—that is what the previous Minister said—but a commitment to bring it down to three hours is a welcome further step in the right direction. That would hugely enhance connectivity. It would improve links, not just the Scotland-London link, but links to other parts of England and the major conurbations, which would make Scotland a much more attractive place to do business. It would boost jobs and growth throughout the country.

[Lindsay Roy (Glenrothes) (Lab)]

In the event of separation, what incentive would there be for the rest-of-the-UK Government to extend high-speed rail beyond Manchester to Carlisle and further north?

[Sheila Gilmore]

I thank my hon. Friend for his intervention. I shall go into that in a little more depth later. It does reveal the issue that we might be faced with. The importance of the scheme, particularly the northern part, to Scotland is probably greater, at this stage at least, than it might seem to be to what we are tending to refer to as the rest of the UK at that point. I certainly hope that the situation alluded to is not one in which we find ourselves.

[Mrs Cheryl Gillan (Chesham and Amersham) (Con)]

I congratulate the hon. Lady on obtaining the debate. Does she agree that it is very important to connect Scotland and England and that it would perhaps be advisable for the Government to consider starting with high-speed rail from Scotland to the north of England, and then finally down to London when the airport policy is decided, not least because that would send a signal to people in Scotland, who will be facing the referendum, that we want them in the United Kingdom?

[Sheila Gilmore]

I thank the right hon. Lady for her intervention. It would certainly be an interesting prospect if we were to be placed at the forefront of this. I agree that the connection with the debate about air travel and airports is also important. We should have a very clear, unified transport policy, not only for transport reasons but for environmental reasons, yet at times it feels as though there is a disconnect there. When it comes to people’s travel from Scotland, I am sure that if we did achieve high-speed rail in the near, not the very distant, future, we would see a huge transfer of both business and leisure travel to rail. That would be highly beneficial.

If there is to be a study, I have some questions for the Minister. Who is carrying out the study that we were told is to take place? Is it HS2 Ltd, the Department, or another external organisation? When are we likely to get a report with the information? That is important, especially in terms of timing, because it will determine whether the additional sections of line to Edinburgh and Glasgow could be incorporated in phase 2 of the project. Phase 2 is the part that involves the building of the Y network from Birmingham to Leeds and to Manchester. Broadening the scope of phase 2 would be critical in ensuring that the benefits of High Speed 2 are realised sooner rather than later. The alternative is that what I have described becomes phase 3, which would be very disappointing.

The estimated completion date of phase 1 is 2026. For the existing phase 2, it is 2033-34. If building to Scotland were to be a completely separate phase, on that sort of time scale we would not see the network reach Scotland until well into the 2040s. From our perspective, and in terms of growing the Scottish economy, that would be extremely disappointing.

We know that the Secretary of State intends to publish plans for the route between Birmingham and Manchester and Leeds by the end of this year. A recent written answer revealed that the Minister wants to bring forward consultation on phase 2 from 2014 to 2013. I warmly welcome all that, but I argue that the plans to build to Scotland should be published and consulted on, so that, at the very least, that section of the route can be included in the hybrid Bill for phase 2. I acknowledge that planning is likely to be at a fairly early stage, but there some key issues about the route to Scotland on which I hope that the Minister will be able to give us some reply, or at least an undertaking that he and his Department will examine that.

One issue is whether building to Scotland would involve two separate lines—one from Manchester to Glasgow on the west coast and one from Leeds to Edinburgh—or one line, probably from Manchester, that would split into a further Y in southern Scotland and link to both Edinburgh and Glasgow. That is already in place for certain rail journeys, and has been for a long time, as anyone who travels north or south on the sleeper will know. That mechanism enables Edinburgh and Glasgow to link to not only London on conventional-speed rail, but many other parts of the country, and it is a big boon for many people who travel that way.

Will the stations in the existing phase 2 be through-stations or terminuses, as planned for Birmingham? I would argue that through-stations are vastly preferable, because each service to and from Scotland could call at stations on the line, which increases connectivity and reduces the need for additional point-to-point services or people having to change to complete their journey.

At this stage, it is important to acknowledge that regardless of when the high-speed network is extended to Edinburgh and Glasgow, passengers in Scotland will benefit as soon as the first phase of the project is complete. Sometimes, the impression is given that high-speed rail is irrelevant to us at that stage, but if the line from London to Birmingham is connected to existing lines, it will allow trains to continue beyond Birmingham at conventional speeds, which could cut journey times from Scotland to London by half an hour. I hope that Scotland will be part of phase 2, but even without that or a phase 3, journey times could be down to three and half hours. Such reductions in journey times are critical when we are looking at the best methods of travel. To return to the environmental issue, it is the kind of difference that will make people realise that rail is by far the better way to travel. It will also fit in with our business needs, because travel will still be from city centre to city centre.

Will the Minister confirm that, from the completion of phase 1, through-running trains will go to both Glasgow and Edinburgh? HS2 will be linked to the west coast main line at Lichfield, and traditionally trains on that line serve only Glasgow, not Edinburgh. We are aware that there are capacity constraints on the west coast main line, but it would be frustrating if Edinburgh had to wait for the completion of phase 2 to benefit from through-running trains. We are not only talking about Edinburgh, but the entire east coast; people coming from further north would also be able to make use of such a connection.

I promised my hon. Friend the Member for Glenrothes that I would say a little about the circumstances that would arise should the referendum result in independence. The HS2 project, probably more than any other, encapsulates why we are better together. The Union means that Ministers in Westminster have a responsibility to look out for the interests of people in Scotland alongside those of people in England, Wales and Northern Ireland. That is demonstrated by the decision to facilitate through-running to Scotland from the completion of phase 1 and by the Secretary of State’s stated ambition to drive down journey times further in future. Should Scotland separate from the rest of the UK, it is possible that a benevolent Government in Westminster might retain those commitments, but that is not guaranteed. If Ministers decided that they would not fulfil those commitments, there would be no formal means of redress though, for example, voting against governing parties at the next general election. There would not even be forums such as Westminster Hall where Members representing Scotland could directly raise and debate the issues.

On a purely practical level, I cannot envision the Government of a separate Scotland persuading Ministers in the UK to pay for the hundreds of miles of expensive, high-speed track necessary to link Leeds and Manchester to the Scottish border. I believe that that is the point my hon. Friend wanted to make. UK Ministers would probably expect a Scottish Government to pay for that in addition to what would be required in Scotland—a huge additional expense.

[Graeme Morrice (Livingston) (Lab)]

I congratulate my hon. Friend on securing this important debate. She makes a powerful argument for the completion of the line to Edinburgh and Glasgow. On the latter point, does she take the view that an independent Scottish Government would not have the financial resources to ensure that the high-speed rail link continued to Edinburgh and Glasgow?

[Sheila Gilmore]

I think that is an extremely likely scenario. We are often faced with proponents of separation suggesting that nothing will change—we can keep the Queen, the pound and all sorts of things—so they will no doubt tell people that they can keep high-speed rail, but that is most unlikely to happen.

Even if the UK Government decided to build the sections between Manchester and the border, or the Scottish Government decided to pay for them, what would happen if there was a concerted campaign against the route and local people decided that they did not want the line to cross their communities? In such circumstances, why should a UK Government expend the political capital necessary to overcome the objections? We could again find ourselves unable to influence the debate.

I do not expect the Minister to say too much about independence, but I would like answers to the questions on the study, the possible route and through-running to Edinburgh. When will the study report? Will any proposed route be incorporated into the hybrid Bill for phase 2? What is the likely route to Scotland? Will the stations in the current phase 2 be through-stations or not? Will there be through-running trains to both Glasgow and Edinburgh when services start after the completion of phase 1 in 2026?