Terminally Ill Adults (End of Life) Bill (Eleventh sitting)

Sean Woodcock Excerpts

Committee stage
Wednesday 12th February 2025 Public Bill Committees

[Danny Kruger (East Wiltshire) (Con)]

This morning, we adjourned in the middle of an intervention. I do not know whether the hon. Member for Banbury wants to resume it.

[Sean Woodcock (Banbury) (Lab)]

I think I had got to the end of it. I will let you carry on, sir.

[Danny Kruger]

Okay. I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for his intervention.

We have received significant written and oral evidence on how common it is, sadly, that vulnerable people experience this sort of subtle coercion—the undue influence from which we all want to ensure that people are protected. The lawyer Tamasin Perkins was referenced earlier, but not fully quoted. She is a private wealth disputes partner, so deals with a lot of complexities around people’s deaths. She has said:

“Coercion can be very difficult to spot as a legal professional (and for medical professionals too)…the real influence occurs behind closed doors.”

She went on to talk about

“frailty and vulnerability…a too close involvement in the decision-making process, or a sudden and inexplicable change of heart.”

All that is often teased out only through the course of the quite in-depth relationship that a lawyer can form in the course of supporting somebody to settle their financial affairs. That is not what is proposed in the Bill. The law firm Scott Bailey has made the point that

“sadly, we all too often speak to individuals who do not realise they are victims until they talk to us about their relationship”.

While the Bill correctly seeks to protect people from direct coercion, indirect coercion is much harder to spot, as is the coercion that people apply to themselves, which we will come to in the next group of amendments. I recognise that the Committee and the promoter of the Bill, the hon. Member for Spen Valley, have taken pains to ensure that we prevent coercion. I put on the record my support for the amendments in the name of the hon. Member for Lowestoft (Jess Asato) about the importance of providing training to all the professionals involved with coercive control, but I am not sure that training will be sufficient. It is important to insist that doctors who assess such applications are required to look directly for these particular forms of influence.

Let me explain our concerns as crisply as I can. At the moment, encouraging suicide will remain illegal under the Bill. That is an important principle. Clause 24 specifies that to assist someone to die according to the processes of the scheme set out in the Bill will not be treated as assisting suicide. The implication is that encouraging assisted suicide remains illegal. To the point made earlier by my right hon. Friend the Member for North West Hampshire, if we are worried that there might be a chilling effect due to the concept of encouragement still being illegal, logically the Committee should amend clause 24 to explicitly allow encouragement in order to prevent such a chilling effect. Either encouragement is okay, and we allow it as a concept, or we do not.

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We have a duty to protect all vulnerable people who might be put at risk by the Bill. I do not necessarily want to repeat the arguments from before, which related to different amendments, but they apply throughout the Bill, and we will no doubt be talking about the same things repeatedly as we go through the different clauses. Vulnerable people include people who do not want to take up the time of their children who have to care for them, or those who believe that it would be better for everyone else if they were no longer alive.

[Sean Woodcock]

On the point of people feeling that they are a burden, one moment that stood out in the oral evidence was that, although the Western Australian Government’s own statistics show that 35% of people opting for assisted dying cited being a burden as their reason for doing so, the practitioners who offer assisted dying to people were not aware of this fact. I had to clarify it for them. Is that part of my hon. Friend’s motivation for supporting the amendment?

[Naz Shah]

It is very much in support of that, and I want to tease out what my hon. Friend just said, which is important. One conversation we are having is about being a burden—my hon. Friend referred to the evidence that we heard—but another side to that is that when people feel like a burden, somebody benefits from that. That benefit is what the amendment teases out. That is what I want to understand.

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[Naz Shah]

The hon. Member makes a valid point: it could be an absolutely autonomous decision. In an ideal world, that is what we would like to get to, but we are not in an ideal world.

[Sean Woodcock]

I am grateful to my hon. Friend for giving way again, and I am sorry to interrupt her when her speech is in full flow. My response to the hon. Member for Harrogate and Knaresborough, which links to my previous point about Western Australia, is that we have been told throughout this process that clinicians can spot the signs of coercion and whether people feel that they are being manipulated. However, in Western Australia, the people administering assisted dying—who we are trusting, in this Bill, to be able to spot those things—were not aware that 35% of people in the state cited “being a burden” as their reason for going for assisted dying. That is my concern. Does my hon. Friend have a response to that?

[Naz Shah]

My hon. Friend makes a very important point—because if we visit this issue afterwards, that person is dead.

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[Sean Woodcock]

I am grateful for this debate, particularly as lots of people who, on Second Reading, were happy to pass the Bill through to Committee wanted the debate to happen. We should all welcome that, as I know the promoter of the Bill, the hon. Member for Spen Valley, does. I am grateful that we are here.

I will move away from the philosophical debate and return to what I said before lunch: this is about not just the role of the individual—though that is clearly important—but what we see as the role of the state and what we are comfortable with the state allowing. I see this amendment as very much linked to that. Does my hon. Friend the Member for Bradford West think there is something in that—about whether the state is happy for people to cite the benefit of others as a reason for opting for assisted dying?

[Naz Shah]

I thank my hon. Friend for his intervention. That is not something I had spoken to the right hon. Member for Braintree about. Thinking about it, his point is valid: there is always an overlap in terms of whether this is the state interfering or not interfering. In this instance, it is about the state and legislation protecting the individual and ensuring that an autonomous decision, which is what we are trying to get to, was reached, without any coercion, undue influence or subtle manipulation—whatever word we choose to use in these proceedings—and not for the benefit of others.

Too many arguments that I hear in support of the Bill seem to assume that all those who seek assisted dying will do so as a matter of autonomy—as a free choice. Honestly, it would be much easier to support the Bill if that were true, and I sincerely wish it were, because we would not have the issues we have been talking about all today and yesterday. However, we must pay heed to those who do not live their lives in that way. We in this House have a duty to protect those who feel like a burden to those close to them—or who are made to feel like a burden, whichever route that may take, and we have had plenty of conversations about that.

The amendment tabled by the right hon. Member for Braintree would permit doctors to halt an application for assisted dying if they had good reason to believe that an applicant was not acting for their own benefit.

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[Danny Kruger]

I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman because he highlights the absolute novelty of this law. We are proposing to do something completely unprecedented. As hon. Members have tried to argue over the last two days, it takes us into extremely dangerous waters with respect to the most vulnerable, so what we are trying to do, through what I concede are some fairly blunt instruments, is to write into the Bill some very strong and clear protections for the most vulnerable people. We have tried to do that in various different ways.

This would be novel. Of course, it is true that the criminal law currently recognises motivation—there are all sorts of aggravating factors that look into the motivation of an individual, so the law is not incapable of making that sort of judgment—but the hon. Gentleman is right to say that this would be a novelty. I am afraid the whole Bill is a novelty.

[Sean Woodcock]

While the oral evidence was divided on many things, I think there was unanimity that palliative care is in need of serious improvement across the board. I do not think a single witness said that palliative care was good across the country and could not be improved significantly. I mention that, linking back to the comment from the hon. Member for Richmond Park, because we are looking to create this law in a situation where a serious risk has been identified of people choosing to opt for assisted dying because of a fear of care costs and so on. That is my concern, and I see this as a safeguard to prevent that. Is that the hon. Member’s view?

[Danny Kruger]

That is absolutely right. It is a very depressing fact that it seems to be the sentiment of the Committee that we should allow people to request and receive an assisted death for the purpose of saving their relatives money. That does seem to be what people are saying.