Pension Schemes Bill

Sarah Edwards Excerpts

2nd reading
Monday 7th July 2025 Commons Chamber

[Sarah Edwards (Tamworth) (Lab)]

I am delighted to speak in this debate. In a former life, I was a trustee of a pension scheme and sat on its investment sub-committee. In my new incarnation, I am the chair of the all-party parliamentary group on pensions and growth.

Pensions sound boring to many, and they sound far away to the young. It might be easier to engage people if we talk about income in retirement. People are not saving enough; it is typically hard to think about, and it is a scenario that could be 30 years away for some. Albert Einstein said:

“Compound interest is the eighth wonder of the world. He who understands it, earns it; he who doesn’t, pays it.”

Paying into a pension pot from an early age exponentially increases the pension pot. That is one of the reasons why I am passionate about people understanding pensions—or, rather, their retirement income—and what we can do as a Government to boost them. The sooner we start, the wealthier we can all be in retirement.

The Pension Schemes Bill aims to strengthen pension investment by supporting around 20 million people who could benefit from the reforms through better outcomes and greater value in private sector pension schemes, increasing the amount available to them. I support the aim of the Bill to enable the reforms of investment management in the local government pension scheme in England and Wales. The aim of these reforms is to ensure that the management of LGPS investments delivers the full benefits of scale, including greater expertise, better value for money and improved resilience.

One of the key engines of growth will be unlocking the potential in our local authority pension funds to direct investment towards the UK and, in particular, local regional development. It is vital that investment reaches beyond those areas that fall under mayoral control. I therefore encourage the Minister, in taking the Bill forward, to foster emerging ideas on how local authority pension pools can help to review potential local investment opportunities to achieve the best outcomes.

[Matt Rodda (Reading Central) (Lab)]

My hon. Friend is making an excellent speech. She has convened a very powerful group—indeed, the former City Minister played an active part in its most recent meeting. Does she agree that this Bill is particularly important for our high streets and many other entrepreneurs in our local communities, to try to find new forms of investment to help them boost business?

[Sarah Edwards]

I thank my hon. Friend for that contribution. It is absolutely essential that we ensure that investment is getting to our high streets and towns, not just our cities, and that people see that change when they walk around.

I urge the Minister to take a supportive approach towards pools that are currently in transition, since they cannot necessarily reallocate assets while they are not members of the new pool that they are going to join. Their investment strategies are therefore effectively on hold until they join the new pool. I also ask him to liaise closely with colleagues in the Ministry of Housing, Communities and Local Government during the process of local government reorganisation. Whatever the new framework is for local government in Staffordshire, the pension fund will still be there. Local authority workers in my Tamworth constituency are part of the Staffordshire LGPS. It is one of eight authorities that are jointly own LGPS Central, which last year reported £29.9 billion in assets under management. The sheer scale of such funds is what underlines the link between pensions and growth.

The British growth partnership, announced in October 2024 by the Chancellor of the Exchequer and the Secretary of State for Business and Trade, sits alongside the British Business Bank, and its primary goal is to stimulate investment from UK pension funds into high-growth, innovative companies, thereby supporting the UK economy and creating new jobs. The partnership aims to raise hundreds of millions of pounds from institutional investors, including pension funds, to invest in UK venture capital. That will be supported by a cornerstone investment from the Government. Investments will be made on a long-term, fully commercial basis, independent of Government influence, leveraging the expertise and market access of the British Business Bank to identify potential companies. That will offer pension funds fruitful investment opportunities that deliver for their members as well as for the British economy.

By unlocking domestic investment, the partnership seeks to enhance the UK’s competitiveness in future industries, particularly in the technology and innovation sectors. I am fortunate that in my constituency I have an innovative technology company called PI-KEM, which has grown its business and workforce over the past 34 years. By linking pension funds to growth, it will be possible to have more such companies creating opportunities for skilled employment that sees Britain at the forefront of markets.

However, there is one area of caution: a trend towards Government finances being pooled into funds of which there is limited parliamentary oversight. While I understand and recognise the power of the larger funding pools, I must raise my concerns over how the funds will be reported on and how we will ensure that both taxpayer and pension member money is stewarded appropriately through the British growth partnership.

As the chair of the all-party parliamentary group on pensions and growth, it has been a great pleasure to meet with colleagues and hear from a variety of industry sectors about where they see the strengths and challenges in these proposals. I take this opportunity to thank the Minister for agreeing to attend a meeting of the APPG to assist us in gaining a greater understanding of the approach that he is taking in the next stages of the discussion of the Bill. I also take this opportunity to invite colleagues to come along and join us on Wednesday.

Chapter 2 in part 1 of the Bill reforms the regime governing trustee payments of surplus to employers and enables surplus to be paid out of more defined-benefit schemes. It is stated that trustee oversight and the regulatory framework will ensure the responsible and secure sharing of surplus funds.

The triennial revaluation of a scheme may determine that there is a deficit or a surplus, but despite being calculated by highly skilled actuaries, both are only a snapshot in time. For example, a scheme being evaluated this spring would have reflected the moment at which the US President’s decision to introduce tariffs hit asset prices. An alternative set of circumstances could have created an apparent surplus. I have been through this process as a trustee, and I have put on record—and must put on record again—my scepticism about whether the potential figure is the true one when it comes to the surplus. I ask the Minister to reassure my constituents, and pension scheme members in general, that he recognises that the interests of scheme members must always be the priority. It would also be welcome to understand how “surplus” is to be defined and calculated, as I have received at least four different versions by canvassing the pensions industry.

In chapter 4 of part 2, provision is made for providers of automatic enrolment and pension schemes regulated by the Financial Conduct Authority to change the way in which a pension pot is invested, to transfer a pot to a different pension scheme with the same provider, or to transfer a pot to another provider without individual member consent where it would be in the best interests of members, taken as a whole. I welcome the fact that the Bill states that a range of safeguards and procedures must be followed before an override or transfer can occur, as sadly, it is often difficult to engage members in the details of their pension. That is particularly true where a number of small pots are accrued early in a working life, which has become the norm in many communities with the rise of insecure work.

As such, I also welcome the efforts that this Government are making to create fair and secure work, because when that is coupled with a well-funded pension, working people are protected not just at work but when they sit on their retirement beach, thinking about how their working career contributed to that welcome rest. Will the Minister ensure that the safeguards are clear and given real prominence in discussion? There is a real need for such fallback powers, but there also needs to be a positive narrative about encouraging engagement.

Chapter 1 of part 2 confers powers on the Secretary of State to make regulations to evaluate and promote the provision of value for money by pension schemes. It will enable defined-contribution occupational schemes to be compared based on the value they provide, rather than just their cost. There is an argument that too high a focus on cost—management fees, for example—has had a detrimental effect on investment by pension funds. This stems from an approach that says that if the employer chooses a fund simply based on cost, the fund may look to minimise that cost, and may achieve that through the tracker funds that have come to characterise much of the market. That is potentially why little investment has occurred in the UK so far. Therefore, by pushing forward on the value for money agenda, the Minister can encourage more investment in the UK, strengthen competition in the sector, and ultimately offer better returns to members.

Chapter 3 of part 2 will require multi-employer DC pension schemes to participate in a default fund of at least £25 billion if they are to be used for automatic enrolment purposes. The aim is to encourage smaller funds to merge into larger ones that are more likely to invest in the productive finances of the UK. I suggest to the Minister that there are two issues here, the first of which relates to the market for assets. In any market, the price of a good rises if there is a shortage of that good. In this instance, the Government are being innovative and asking the pensions industry to invest in productive assets, which can include infrastructure and regeneration schemes that are vital to the places where people live. It is therefore vital that we balance the pace and scale of the development of new profitable investment opportunities with the use of any regulations to push investors in a particular direction.

To use an analogy, the Tamworth is a rare breed of pig. Unless an appropriate opportunity were available to expand supply first, any ministerial direction to buy stock of the Tamworth pig would just result in a spike in its price and poor returns for investors.

[Matt Rodda]

My hon. Friend is making a wonderful speech. May I also say that there is a wonderful pig from Berkshire as well, which has distinctive markings? However, moving away from animals, perhaps my hon. Friend wishes to say a little more about the success of the type of legislation she describes in Canada and Australia. It has delivered real value in those countries’ economies and real value for pension savers.

[Sarah Edwards]

Absolutely. There have been some really interesting changes arising from those countries’ reviews of their pensions markets, and I will be very interested to hear what the Minister has to say about what he has learned from those changes. Certainly, in the meetings that we have attended, we have learned a lot about some of the various initiatives that are driving real growth and real change in those countries.

I urge the Minister to focus on the process of expanding the pipeline of suitable projects, while building on the Chancellor’s success—and, I am sure, his own—in creating a voluntary framework for industry and Government through the Mansion House accord.

[Dame Meg Hillier]

My hon. Friend has referred to good opportunities. I think it was Islington council’s pension scheme that invested in social housing in its area. That gives a good return because, by and large, people pay their rent—it is a steady return over a long period of time. Given the desperate need for housing in this country, does my hon. Friend agree that that would be a real opportunity for these funds as they get bigger?

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[Sarah Edwards]

I absolutely agree. It is incredibly important that we make sure those investments are being driven towards the things that are going to change lives, and building houses will change lives. The other thing that my hon. Friend will be very aware of is the fact that the state pension is calculated on the basis that people are going to own a house in retirement. As we know, we are heading to a point at which many people will not own a home and their income in retirement may therefore not be enough, so we need to be alive to that situation.

In conclusion, this Bill offers a great deal to my constituents, with the prospect of better pensions through investing for the future so that living standards are higher. For younger generations, there is a real need for investment now in the long-term future of the British economy, so that they can eventually retire with an appropriate income to sustain them. There is also a need to channel that investment beyond our major cities and mayoral authorities to our shire districts, in order to deliver the change that lies at the heart of this Government’s mandate, and the Bill offers an opportunity to do that. I believe that it offers lots of positive opportunities, but as always there will be challenges. Like a good pension fund trustee, I ask the Minister to take the Bill forward with a listening ear as he seeks to link pensions and growth for the long-term benefit of us all.

Pension Schemes Bill (First sitting)

Sarah Edwards Excerpts

Committee stage
Tuesday 2nd September 2025 Public Bill Committees

[Mark Garnier (Wyre Forest) (Con)]

So do I.

[Sarah Edwards (Tamworth) (Lab)]

And I.

[The Chair]

We will now hear oral evidence from Rob Yuille, assistant director and head of long-term savings at the Association of British Insurers, and Zoe Alexander, director of policy and advocacy at Pensions UK. We must stick to the timings in the programme motion that the Committee has agreed. For this panel, we have until 9.55 am. Will the witnesses briefly introduce themselves for the record?

Rob Yuille: Hello. I am Rob Yuille. I am head of long-term savings policy at the ABI. We represent several of the largest defined-contribution workplace providers across group personal pensions and master trusts, insurers in the pension risk transfer market and retail pension providers. Between them, they serve tens of millions of customers and manage hundreds of billions of pounds in assets.

Zoe Alexander: My name is Zoe Alexander. I am director of policy and advocacy at Pensions UK. We are a not-for-profit organisation run for the benefit of our members. Our members serve 30 million savers, who invest more than £2 trillion in the UK and abroad.

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[Mark Garnier]

Q I have one final question. The key point, from the point of view of your members and the local government pension scheme, is that the interest of the members should not be trumped by the interest of the wider economy—their interest comes first. Is that right?

Zoe Alexander: That is right, but often those things are consistent, and our members would agree with that. Those things are not inconsistent.

Rob Yuille: I agree.

[Sarah Edwards]

Q I am interested in hearing a little more about unlocking surplus and some of the challenges, particularly in the way that it is described or calculated, and what the thresholds might be. Obviously, there is an opportunity, but there is also a balance around conflicts arising when an employer might wish to access the surplus. Perhaps you could comment on your understanding and interpretation of how the Bill deals with that issue.

Rob Yuille: The challenge is aligning it with scheme members’ interests so that they are not put at risk. If a surplus turns to a deficit, which it can do because it is by no means guaranteed, and if an employer then fails, there is actual detriment to those scheme members. As we know, economic conditions can change. It is an opportunity for employers, though—that is the purpose of it—and schemes can and do extract surplus now, often when they enter a buy-out with an insurer.

It does need guardrails, and the Bill includes the provision that it has to be signed off by an actuary and it is the trustees’ decision. That is important, but there is a related challenge about the interaction of the surplus and superfunds. Each of those is okay: you can extract a surplus, for the reasons that we have discussed, and you can go into a superfund if you cannot afford a buy-out. The problem is, if a scheme could afford buy-out, extracts a surplus and then no longer can, and then it enters a superfund, the scheme members are in a weaker position than they would otherwise be. There are a couple of things that could be done about that: either leave the threshold for extracting surplus where it is—which is buy-out level, rather than low dependency—or change the Bill so that the combination of surplus and superfund cannot be gamed to get around that. In any case, as you say, it is important to monitor the market, and for the regulators to be alive to potential conflicts of interest.

Zoe Alexander: Pensions UK is content with the idea of using the low dependency threshold for surplus release. We think the protections are sufficient. Providing that the actuarial certification is in place, the sponsoring employer is in a strong financial position and a strong employer covenant is in place, we think there are real benefits to be had from surplus release. We highlight the fact that some employers and trustees will be looking to move benefits from DB to DC using surplus release, or even to a collective defined-contribution scheme. We are interested in the potential of that to bolster the benefits of those types of scheme, and we would like Government to look at the 25% tax penalty that applies when doing that, because if those funds are kept within the pensions system, that is to the benefit of savers, so perhaps that tax charge need not apply.

[John Milne (Horsham) (LD)]

Q Do you think that the proposed value for money framework could have the unintended effect of causing excess caution or short-termism in investment decisions? If so, what mitigations would you suggest?

Zoe Alexander: There will of course be metrics in the value for money framework that look at the longer term, and looking at longer time horizons is really welcome. One concern at Pensions UK is about the intermediate rankings in the value for money framework meaning that schemes cannot accept new business. That may well result in schemes doing everything they can, at any cost, to ensure they do not drop from the top rating to the intermediate rating. That could cause damaging behaviours in terms of herding. We want to ensure that people in the intermediate ranking, whether that is within a couple of intermediate rankings—perhaps you have a top one and then a bottom one, but somewhere within that intermediate scale—you can continue to take on new business, and the regulator will perhaps put you on a time limit to get back into the green, back into the excellent rating. We think that if it is so binary that as soon as you drop into intermediate, you cannot take on new business, that will heighten the potential downside risks of investment behaviours that you are describing.

Rob Yuille: I agree with that. I strongly support the value for money framework—I think both our organisations do—and the intent to shift the culture away from just focusing on cost and to value for money more generally, but yes, there is that risk. There are multiple trade-offs here: it is about transparency and how much you disclose, versus unintended consequences of that. We want high performers but, for high performance, you need to take risks.

As well as what Zoe says, which we might build on, we do not want a one-year metric. One year is too short a period; pensions are a long-term business. There should be a forward-looking metric, so that firms can say how they expect to perform over the longer term and then regulators and the market can scrutinise it.

On the points that were raised about intermediate ratings, this is another area where there is a potential combination of two bits of the Bill. There is provision for multiple intermediate ratings. It was originally conceived as a traffic light system, so there would be three ratings. If there were four, it would be okay to say to schemes, “You are not performing; you need to close to new employers,” but if there are three, firms will do everything they can to play it safe and make sure they get the green. So the interaction of those is really important.

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[The Chair]

A last, short question.

[Sarah Edwards]

Q I just wanted to ask for your reflections on the current levels of funding in the UK compared with other funds. Canada is often touted as having a higher rate of funding. Can you comment on what you think some of the barriers might be? Why is that not happening, and do you think the Bill will address that?

Charlotte Clark: As Rob says, sometimes it is slightly overplayed. There is a lot of investment from UK pension schemes, whether they are DB or DC, within the UK. Why does Canada look like it invests a lot? It is a very mature system. We have two systems—one is in decline and one is in the ascendancy—whereas the Canadian system has been established for 40 years. The auto-enrolment system is essentially 10 years old, so they have a much more mature system. You see within those schemes that they have scale—they are very large and very mature schemes—and, in terms of things such as their investment approach, it is frequently internalised. They have been looking at private assets for longer than we have, particularly in the DC master trusts, auto—

[The Chair]

Order. That brings us to the end of the time allotted for the Committee to ask questions. On behalf of the Committee, I thank our witnesses for their evidence and apologise to hon. Members whom I am afraid time did not allow me to call.

Examination of Witnesses

Christopher Brooks and Jack Jones gave evidence.

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[Rebecca Smith]

The privacy piece came up earlier this morning as well, so that needs looking at.

Dale Critchley: If we deliver something that looks towards targeted support, where instead of just saying, “This is the solution you will go in if you make no choice,” we say, “This is the solution we think is best for you, and you will go in if you make no choice,” that would edge towards marketing, and we could not say that.

[Sarah Edwards]

Q I want to pick up on the changes around DC, and the fact that there are quite a lot of different things—we have talked about value for money, changes in scale and, obviously, default retirement ages. From your perspective, is there a sequencing that needs to happen to make sure that they work, and is that provided for? What would your guidance be around that?

Colin Clarke: I do not think the Bill itself necessarily has the timescales in it, because it will be left to secondary legislation to look at when all these things actually fit together. A very helpful document was published alongside the Bill, with a potential road map. There is a logical order in which certain things have to happen. For example, the value for money test will require movement of members from historical defaults into something that will deliver better value. To achieve that, the contractual override for contract-based schemes would need to be in place in good time before the value for money exercise happens. Otherwise, there will be constraints that might inhibit the ability to do that.

Similarly, with small pots, a lot of the measures will lead to consolidation at scheme level. That will address some, but not all, of the small pots issue. The road map sets out small pots being at the end, and that is a sensible place to put them, because there will be a lot of other activity that happens first that will solve some of the problems. It does not make sense for small pots to be moved before they are moved again—you could see things moving around a couple of times.

On guided retirement, the potential timing of implementation is quite tight if it is going to be 2027 for certain schemes, when we do not have any secondary legislation yet. It is very important that that is consulted on as soon as possible so that we have clarity. Dale mentioned working on various different solutions. We have been doing something similar at L&G, and they may well be the right thing for members, but we know that we will have to fit them around regulations and make some adjustments, so having clarity on those early would be very helpful.

Pension Schemes Bill (Second sitting)

Sarah Edwards Excerpts

Committee stage
Tuesday 2nd September 2025 Public Bill Committees

[Sarah Edwards (Tamworth) (Lab)]

Q I want to go back a little and talk about transfer of funds into pools. During the transitional phase there are funds that might have ordinarily been making investments and would have had a set of investment principles and a strategy, and who for 12 months may potentially not be making those decisions. Are there risks to the members in terms of value, or do you not foresee that being a problem?

Robert McInroy: It is important to point out that the members are not directly impacted by the scheme returns or cost: their benefits are set in statutes and are guaranteed. However, you can see how that might indirectly implicate them; for example, if there was a higher cost to employers because the scheme was not performing the way we would have liked, that could impact on their business.

Councillor Phillips: We know the deadline has been set for the transfer and it is very much business as usual until that happens. Of course, virtually all the funds have been contributing to their pools anyway, so it is just a case of transferring the rest. There are some sensible discussions going on about where it would cost money to pull out of an investment, and common sense must be the first rule, but the direction of travel is what the Government want to see: that the pool is effectively in charge of delivering that investment strategy, which still remains the responsibility of the fund.

Robert McInroy: Within the 21 impacted funds, there are two pools that are being wound up and they are to find a new home, and they do not know for certain where that will be. There is sometimes a degree of inertia in some of the decisions made: why would you make a new investment when you do not know whether that is going to fit into your new pool? I appreciate that is why there are some short timescales on this; we need to get clarity and move through this quickly, or there will be increased risk, but the short timescales create risk in themselves, so there is a balance to be made and a tension there.

[The Chair]

If there are no further questions from Members, I thank the witnesses for their evidence today. We will move on to the next panel.

Examination of Witnesses

Helen Forrest Hall and Sophia Singleton gave evidence.

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[Kirsty Blackman]

Q Thank you very much for all your hard work on this, for your passion and for how articulate you are, particularly for those people that cannot be there and cannot make the case themselves. I really appreciate it. I absolutely agree with what you are saying on indexation; I think it is incredibly important. You were talking about the people that would benefit from these changes. Are they overwhelmingly well-off people, or are they people that are really struggling because of the lack of indexation, and who would therefore be more likely to spend the money and to grow the economy by spending their money, if the Government are worried about balance sheets?

Roger Sainsbury: I have to say that there is a great range.

Terry Monk: I cannot remember what it is, but the average FAS member’s pension is something in the order of £4,000 or £5,000 a year, and if you look at the steelworkers, because they are our example, it is those sorts of guys. I worked in the City. I had a different job, but the majority of the people in the scheme had good benefits and good salaries but their pensions were important and they reflected the role they had in their life. I am not sure off the top of my head, but I think the average of the FAS pension is £4,500—some more, some less, obviously.

I want to make a point that I think Roger mentioned: at one stage, we were not at the table to talk as part of the pensions Bill. We lobbied hard. I know some of you have definitely put forward amendments to the pensions Bill to ensure that pre-1997 becomes part of the pensions Bill, which is why we are here today, but we had to work hard just to get that.

[Sarah Edwards]

Q I am interested in exactly what you were saying around the two-tier element, partly around the challenge of the fact that there are people who have got the full recompense or equivalent, and you have not. Do you feel that this is an opportunity to change that dial and set the record straight? Obviously, an amendment has been tabled. I recognise that; I just wanted to get a bit more from you on the fact that there are people who are in a completely different situation, and I just wanted you to build on that point that there are two sides to this. Some have not lost and some have.

Terry Monk: FAS stopped when PPF opened its doors in 2005, so most of the people in FAS did not have much opportunity to accrue any increasing benefits post 1997. The majority of them are old—the average age of the FAS member is now 73, which is much younger than I am. It is that age group of people who would really benefit, and their widows and their spouses—let us not forget them—and they would therefore spend money that they currently do not have to spend. They can afford their council tax. They can afford their heating. It would change their lives, in terms of feeling that they have achieved this success on their behalf and on behalf of the members.

Roger Sainsbury: I would like to talk a bit about the concept of an amendment. We have observed that one amendment has already been offered: new clause 18 suggested by Ann Davies MP. Our team and I have had a bit of a look at that in the last couple of days. While we very much appreciate her good intention in putting the amendment forward, it actually does not do the job in a number of respects. I do not know how many of you have ever grappled with the obscure and complex language of schedule 7 to the Act, but it is mighty complicated. Some time ago, I and my team spent several days trying to work out what an amendment should be to deliver what we wanted. I have got some first class people on the team, but in the end we decided we actually could not do it, and would have to leave it to the expert drafters in the Department.

That is yet another reason why—I mentioned it in the written evidence—at a meeting I have already asked the Minister if he would himself table the requisite amendment. When you come up against the sheer complexity that Ann Davies has obviously already come up against, this is another reason why we think that would be a very good idea. It is slightly unusual for a Minister to table an amendment to his own Bill, but it is permitted, as the Minister said when I was talking to him about it. In a complex situation like this, it would absolutely be the best way of getting straight to the desired answer, so I plead with all of you to join me in urging the Minister to take this on.

[Sarah Edwards]

I was contacted by my constituents, so thank you for that.

[John Milne]

I think you have answered all my questions already. We have tabled an amendment, and I would really appreciate your input on whether we could improve it or argue around it between now and when it is raised in Committee.

Roger Sainsbury: Thank you.