Victims and Prisoners Bill (Third sitting)

Sarah Champion Excerpts

Committee stage
Thursday 22nd June 2023 Public Bill Committees

[Sir Oliver Heald]

No, that was the point I wanted to get at. Thank you.

[Sarah Champion (Rotherham) (Lab)]

Q Thank you both very much for the evidence you have given. It has clarified in my mind what an independent public advocate is. Do you both feel that part 2 meets the objective that you think should be at the core of the role, or does it need work?

Rt Rev James Jones: Could you specify what bit of part 2 you are referring to, in terms of needing more work?

[Sarah Champion]

No, because it is not in front of me. Do you think that the Bill would get you the independence that you want, and give the families a voice?

Rt Rev James Jones: At the risk of repeating myself, no, I do not. I think independence can be assured only by there being a standing public appointment.

Ken Sutton: I agree.

[Sarah Champion]

Thank you very much.

[Janet Daby (Lewisham East) (Lab)]

Q Good morning. Do you think that the duty of candour should be extended to include public servants, so that they have to proactively tell the truth? Shall we start with you, Bishop?

Rt Rev James Jones: Yes, I think that there should be a duty of candour on all public officials. Anybody who accepts public office should bind themselves according to their own conscience to speak with candour and not to dissemble when called upon to give the truth and an account of what has happened. But I do not think that that is part of this Bill.

--- Later in debate ---

[Sarah Champion]

Q Lord Wills, thank you for all the work you have done in this field. I want to build on Janet’s point. You have repeated that the Bill gives the Secretary of State unfettered powers. On re-reading part 2, it strikes me that it does not say very much at all about the powers that the independent advocate would have. What would you like to see in the Bill?

Lord Wills: You have put your finger on the whole problem with the Bill—lots of powers to the Secretary of State and very few for the independent public advocate. There are various details of the Bill where the drafting could be improved.

I return to two main points. In some way, families have to be given effective agency, and that must mean some fettering of the powers on the Secretary of State. I am agnostic about the way to do that, and I have always accepted that my private Member’s Bill was not perfect. I am agnostic about how you fetter the Secretary of State, but something like ensuring that the Secretary of State “has regard to” the wishes of the bereaved and surviving victims would be a good start in making a way forward.

The other point, as I have said, is transparency, which I cannot stress enough. We have to get to the truth as quickly as possible. The Hillsborough Independent Panel did a magnificent job in a very short space of time, when it was inevitably more difficult, because 20 years had elapsed. Therefore, my view is that there has to be a presumption—not a requirement, because there has to be an element of discretion—in the statute in favour of an independent Hillsborough-type panel being set up. The important point is it is not adversarial. Big public inquiries very easily become adversarial; all sides have lawyers that argue and dispute, so that often a fog of dispute comes over these events. The Hillsborough Independent Panel had none of that. It was an impartial search for the truth. There must be a presumption in favour of a similar type of panel in all future public disasters. That should not be an absolute requirement, but there should be a presumption in favour of it.

[The Chair]

Thank you very much for your evidence, Lord Wills. That concludes this session.

Lord Wills: Thank you.

Examination of Witnesses

Nick Hurd and Tim Suter gave evidence.

--- Later in debate ---

[Jess Phillips]

Q On the point that you made, Tim, about the person being a lawyer—as my colleague, Maria Eagle, pointed out, all the lawyers nodded—I am just wondering. I am somebody who has been a victim advocate who got to the truth my entire career and I do not have a law degree. Do you think that there is also potentially some need for special expertise in how to deal with, specifically, bereaved people and people who have suffered terrible abuses? I am thinking of big national disasters such as child abuse in children’s homes or something like that, where there is a big state actor. Do you think that there is potential for other skills to be important in that?

Tim Suter: Absolutely. In saying that a lawyer can do it, I completely agree with you. That is actually something I have seen improve remarkably through the course of the cases that I have been involved in—to the extent that for the Manchester Arena inquiry, there was something called the NHS resilience hub and it was fantastic. It was able to guide, support and assist the bereaved and victims. On the need for victim support and people who have specialist skills, I absolutely agree there is a role for that within the IPA.

[Sarah Champion]

Q A quick clarification—which Act is the 2005 Act that you referred to?

Tim Suter: Sorry, I used my shorthand for the Inquiries Act 2005: section 1—matter of public concern, set up inquiry.

[Sarah Champion]

Q Got it. You mentioned under-18s. In clause 27, under-18s are mentioned twice. Subsection (4) refers to the advocate providing “support” to such persons, but subsection (5) says they “may not represent” such persons. What is the distinction between the two and why do you say the Bill does not go far enough?

Tim Suter: I only looked at it quickly, but I just thought that it is almost saying that the IPA, through another support agency, can give you the voice of that child, or that person who is under 18, but it is not representing. I do not know where representing features in terms of the IPA.

[Sarah Champion]

Q So what would you like to see?

Tim Suter: I would like the IPA to be able to directly represent, subject to parental consent, someone who is under 18. It is just as important for those under 18, if they want to, to have that agency through the IPA. I think there is a real risk it gets lost.

On the Manchester Arena inquiry, we had a number of people under 18 giving evidence and they expressed the impact of the bombing on them so well, so clearly and so powerfully, and there is a real risk of creating a lacuna.

[Sarah Champion]

Q In terms of both getting to the truth and getting closure for those involved, how does having their representation help with that?

Tim Suter: I just think that there is a risk that they will not be able to access services in the same way and I think we all realise that those under 18 may have a need for very specialist services. So, just making sure that it is absolutely crystal clear that the IPA can help those victims under 18 to access the services that are more specialist is going to be important.

[The Chair]

If there are no further questions, that concludes this evidence session. Thank you very much, gentlemen.

Examination of Witnesses

Ruth Davison and Ellen Miller gave evidence.

--- Later in debate ---

[Siobhan Baillie]

Q Ellen, you talk about having teeth, but what does that look like? We have seen suggestions that police officers have their pay docked, for example, if they do not enforce the code. What do you mean by that? What does enforcement look like?

Ellen Miller: I would look at enforcement through the inspection and reporting regime. First, we must ensure that there is a Victims’ Commissioner and a Domestic Abuse Commissioner, and that they have the right to be very public and open. Ruth will have done this, and we have done this: when you have data and look at the differences in the level of funding, it is absolutely shocking and it is not reported. Some things that, for example, the victims grant gets spent on are just jaw-dropping. There is not that level of accountability. Accountability comes through inspections, the roles of the independent commissioners and reporting—and the right to properly kick-off in a way that will actually lead to something. There needs to be the equivalent health and care ombudsman: a proper complaints process.

Ruth Davison: I agree with what Ellen is saying. It comes back to putting the four overarching principles into the Bill. We have already seen reports saying, “That won’t go far enough. It won’t lead to the cultural change that is so necessary if victims are actually to be able to access those rights—not for those rights to just exist on a piece of paper that they may or may not be able to read even if they receive it, but to be acting throughout the whole process.”

Missing from the Bill as a whole is a recognition of how far there is to go in terms of tackling culture. The fundamental understanding of domestic abuse and of many of the crimes that are faced by women in this country is missing. We are calling for mandatory training for police forces, which would lead to the kind of enforcement and teeth that Ellen is talking about.

[Sarah Champion]

Q Thank you for what you are bringing to the table, and for what you do in your daily lives. Ruth, you spoke about the event at the beginning of the week with some of your service users. In the Bill, the victims code compels each criminal justice body to take reasonable steps to promote awareness. Is that enough?

Ruth Davison: No, it is not enough. You were there at the event, so you heard women saying, “What is this?” If they do not know what it is, it is not being upheld at the moment. We do not think that reasonable steps to raise awareness and make people aware of the code is adequate. Making it enforceable gives it teeth. I feel like I am repeating what Ellen is saying, but we need to go further.

These are women who are in a period of crisis in their lives. They may be being forced to flee their home with their children in the middle of the night, leaving friends, family, pets, and toys behind. They are dealing with all these institutions through no fault of their own. Those institutions need to have very clear and holistic approaches to their support. That is what is done on the frontline of community-based services, whether or not they enter the criminal justice system, report to the police and have their case dismissed due to lack of evidence, or endure the re-traumatisation of testifying again and again in the family court or in the legal case. Recognising that holistic support is essential, and embedding that in the Bill through the victims code being enforceable feels like a critical part of it, alongside the funding I am calling for.

[Sarah Champion]

Q It is usually the police who are the frontline staff that people go to first. Do they know about the victims code?

Ruth Davison: If they do, I do not think they are communicating it—so, no. I still think we find absolutely shocking responses from frontline policing, and at the moment obviously the level of police-perpetrated domestic abuse and sexual offences coming to light is only deterring people further from reporting to the police. The first place that many of them come—the frontline—is the national domestic abuse helpline or their local frontline community service, not the police. That needs to change, because police need to understand the dynamics of domestic abuse. I often say that if I spotted a suspicious package on the bus on my way here and I phoned it in, no one would say, “But what are you wearing and why were you on that bus on your own at that time of the day? Had you been drinking?” People would say, “Tell us where the package is,” and they would deal with the package, not start to interrogate me as if I were the criminal.

Far too many victims are unfortunately still receiving victim-blaming language and feeling as if they are criminalised themselves when they come forward. That is even before you get to the points made very well by Southall Black Sisters on Tuesday about the absolutely desperate need for a firewall to separate statutory services from immigration services, because women thinking they could be criminalised or lose their right to stay in this country is another massive deterrent to them feeling safe to come forward.

Ellen Miller: Can I add to that? There should also be a firewall to separate independent support for victims from the statutory organisations that have so often let down these individuals. That is why people are not going to the police. People are worried that their children will be taken away from them. They are worried about getting the father of their child in huge amounts of trouble. They are worried about what it might mean to them—they may not speak English in a particularly strong way, but have had it explained and know their rights. They may feel they do not have any chance of having their rights realised. Independence really matters, and that is something that is absolutely not universal in the support for victims. It is very hard, in some places, to get independent support. We see that in care: we have the independent health advocate, which is again written into the Care Act, but we do not have that provision for survivors of domestic abuse. That is a legislative issue.

[Sarah Champion]

Q I have two very quick questions, if I may, Chair. I am grateful that the Minister has tabled amendments around counselling notes. You were talking about the chilling effect of not having the firewall. I do not know if you have seen the Minister’s amendments, but why should it not be automatic that counselling notes are used or accessed by police?

Ruth Davison: Maybe this comes back to understanding the dynamics of domestic abuse. An abuser will isolate you, gaslight you, tell you no one will believe you and cut off your routes to support. Something we hear time and again from survivors who come to us—survivors who phone the helpline and come to community-based services—is the unbelievable relief of someone believing you, having some empathy, listening to you and treating you like a human being. Obviously, there is then all the practical guidance that the independent advocates are able to give, but not having anywhere to speak and being silenced through these processes that are highly traumatic is dangerous for women, dangerous for their mental health, dangerous for their children and dangerous for their recoveries. Having a safe space in counselling as well as with your independent advocate in a community-based service is absolutely critical. That should not be automatically accessible by the police—who we know unfortunately have a whole habit of using that against you and looking into your past, rather than the past and motivations of the perpetrator. A firewall is absolutely essential if we to start to see confidence rebuild.

Ellen Miller: There is something about what this crime is, as well. Intimate violence does the most awful, traumatic things to your brain, and it gives you the hugest impacts that will stay with you for a lifetime. I myself have survived sexual violence—35 years ago, briefly, in an attack. That stays with me forever. The gap between that happening then and going forward to a case and prosecution—what that did to me. I have worked with survivors of sexual and domestic abuse and violence. How can we leave people—women, mothers, fathers—without someone to help them sort that out? They have been severely damaged by what has happened to them, and it feels to me callous and appalling that we then have ISVAs who have to say, “Well, I know you really, really need support, but the choice is you can have support or you can have justice.” That is just not okay.

[Sarah Champion]

Thank you.

[The Chair]

We have to finish exactly on time—it is in the programme motion.