General Election Television Debates

Sammy Wilson Excerpts

Wednesday 11th March 2015 Commons Chamber

[Sammy Wilson (East Antrim) (DUP)]

I emphasise at the outset points that other hon. Members have made. We brought this debate forward not because we have some selfish party political interest, but because we believe that if there are to be debates about the shape of future government, and the input that parties will have, or potentially have, into future government, including in Northern Ireland, then the public should have the widest possible information about who will be involved and the ideas that will be put forward.

We recognise that even in a hung Parliament our role may be quite marginal, so we would have been quite happy for the parties that are most likely to form the Government of the United Kingdom to have their leaders debating the issues before the general public. We are not as arrogant as the BBC or some of the other broadcasters. We do not believe that we have some God-given right to be included just because we happen to have Members in the House of Commons or are putting people forward to be Members. However, once the rules were manipulated, changed, twisted and warped to include some smaller parties, but not all, we had a right to make the demands that we have made to the BBC and the other broadcasters that are included in this motion.

I do not believe that the debate about the debates has done politics any good at all. Despite what has been said, I do not see this as a problem that was made by politicians, although some people would happily point the finger at the Prime Minister or the Leader of the Opposition. The problem was primarily caused by the broadcasters. We probably all have our own interpretations of what their motives were. Was it simply that they believed that they could imperiously wave their fingers at the politicians of this country and tell them, “We will give you broadcasting time. Here are the conditions on which you will have it, and if you do not obey the rules that we have set down, we will punish you”? Another interpretation is that they simply wanted to sex up the broadcasts, and saw that perhaps a good head-to-head row between the Prime Minister and the leader of UKIP would do the job. Alternatively, given the left-wing bias of the BBC—I have sympathy with the views of some Government Members on this—perhaps it mainly wanted someone present who would take on the Prime Minister. I have a great belief in the left-wing bias of the BBC. Indeed, Mr Deputy Speaker, were you to give me time—I know that you will not, because I would be diverging from the motion—I could wax eloquent on that matter for a long time, but I will not do so.

[Ian Paisley]

Does my hon. Friend agree that the left-leaning bias of the BBC with regard to these broadcasts again opens up the debate that should properly take place about whether we should be paying licence fees for such an organisation to exist?

[Sammy Wilson]

I will desist from getting into a discussion about licence fees, the payment of licence fees, the non-payment of licence fees, the compulsory payment of licence fees, or whatever. That is another favourite topic of mine, but it is not quite relevant to the motion before us.

Whatever the reason for it, we now have an unbecoming shambles that is not doing politics any good. Despite what is said about how rubbishy people think politicians are, I think there is a general desire among the public to hear debates on the issues. However, those debates have to be in a fair and properly structured format. The unbecoming shambles that we now have brings politics in this country further into disrepute.

We have put forward an unassailable case. We would prefer a much tighter arrangement for the debate, but if it is to be opened up—I add the qualifications put forward by Members from the Alliance party and the SDLP, and ourselves—there are absolutely no grounds for saying that the fourth largest party in this House, which stands only in a regional capacity but is no different in that regard from Plaid Cymru or the SNP, and has more members than many of the smaller parties that will be included, and could have the same influence as all those parties, should be excluded. That is especially the case because, as my right hon. Friend the Member for Belfast North (Mr Dodds) said, it is not as though we operate in some kind of bubble in Northern Ireland and will not be competing against some of the parties that are represented on these Benches and that will be participating in the debates.

I will have a UKIP opponent and perhaps even have a Conservative opponent and, by proxy, I will have opposition from Labour in the form of the SDLP and from the Liberal Democrats in the form of the Alliance party. When I say “opposition” from competitors I mean it in the loosest possible sense of the word, because such opponents will be somewhere down at the bottom of the pile when it comes to counting the votes. I will also have an opponent from the Greens, but given the fact that the Greens in Northern Ireland want to prevent the good constituents of East Antrim from eating bacon butties on a Monday in order to save the planet or from seeing adverts for flying to the Mediterranean because they will put too much CO₂ into the air—

[Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle)]

Order. I think we will both agree that this is not about debates between the party leaders, and I am sure the hon. Gentleman wants to get back to that.

[Sammy Wilson]

The point I am making—

[Mr Deputy Speaker]

Never mind what point you are making. The point is that you are offbeat. Get back to the debates.

[Sammy Wilson]

I am trying to explain my point, Mr Deputy Speaker. My point is that the inclusion or non-inclusion of the Greens in the debates will not make any difference because their policies are so outlandish that nobody will vote for them anyway. However, they have been included, and given that they are a small party and much smaller than our party, our argument is that we ought to be included as well.

The problem, which has of course been created by the broadcasters, is that if we end up with seven parties, as we now have, or eight or nine parties, we will not have a debate—or even a beauty contest given some of the people involved. We will have a shambles or, as the hon. Member for Foyle (Mark Durkan) said, a Tower of Babel—utter confusion—with points not being properly debated.

The problem created by the broadcasters is one reason why we believe that there should be some attempt, even at this late stage, to resolve the issue either by accepting the inclusion of all parties with a sizeable representation and candidates standing nationally and regionally, or by finding some way to narrow the number down. We cannot have the worst of all worlds, which is including some and excluding the others.

Another part of the motion that has generated a fair range of comment is about how we proceed. The proposal for an independent body to make an adjudication may well come too late for this election, but that is not to say that it should not be considered for future elections; otherwise this shambles might be repeated. On the one hand, there are the politicians who have their agendas, but on the other hand, the broadcasters have their own agendas, as we now know. The broadcasters are no less guilty in all this than those that some of the public may see as self-seeking politicians. We therefore believe in the creation of an independent body.

The Minister of State, Cabinet Office, the right hon. Member for Tunbridge Wells (Greg Clark), asked how independent the body should be and how it could be made independent. Such an idea has already been rejected in the House of Lords, but only because greater faith was placed in the broadcasters than should ever have been placed in them. Now we have seen that they are incapable of the degree of independence and objectivity required to ensure fair, reasonable and rational debate on the issues, we must look again at having an independent body. It should be no more difficult to create an independent body to oversee broadcasts during elections than to have an independent body for any other job for which such a body is required. The Minister’s point about how we ensure the body’s independence should not cause us a great deal of concern.

Another issue that hon. Members have raised is whether whatever is decided should be mandatory, as the Labour party wants, or voluntary. Our view is that the job of the independent body should be to set the rules. If the rules are set fairly, there will be no need for coercion. People will be able to sign up to the conditions attached to the rules, so there should not be any unseemly rows. At the end of the day, I must say that I am not attracted to making participation mandatory. Even once the rules have been set and the parties have agreed to them, there should still be a right and an opportunity for the parties—they will have to explain the circumstances to the electorate—to decide whether to participate.

[Stephen Twigg]

Let me make it clear that I entirely share the hon. Gentleman’s sentiments. We are suggesting not that participation in the debates should be mandatory, but that it should be mandatory for the debates to be held.

[Sammy Wilson]

We agree that, once we have a framework for the debates, people should have the right to decide whether to participate in them.

The final issue is whether the debates should be held before or during the election campaign. I do not like the argument that if the manifestos have not been published, there could not be a debate. What do debates consist of? Very often, they are as much about looking back as about looking forward. They are about looking at the parties’ record in the past, because that is sometimes a far better way of judging what they will do in the future than what might be in their manifestos, given the cynicism of much of the electorate about manifesto commitments. We only have to look at the Liberal Democrats to think of how they made a major commitment, but moved away from it very quickly. A debate on the basis of manifestos may not be all that productive.

I can see the argument for having a debate in the period up to an election without its sucking the lifeblood out of the election campaign. As the hon. Member for Foyle pointed out, there are many formats for debating the issues. He mentioned the variety of formats used during the Scottish referendum campaign. Whether the broadcasts are straightforward head-to-heads between the two main protagonists, panel discussions, debates involving audience participation or a range of other things, they can be done in many ways, so we are not all that worried about their timing.

I must say that I can see the Prime Minister’s point that a shambolic debate, especially with seven different parties all fighting and squabbling for a bit of time in a one-and-a-half hour debate, might not be all that edifying in an election campaign and might distract from many of the other good ways in which parties and individual candidates seek to communicate with the electorate.

One issue that the independent commission must sort out—the hon. Members for Belfast East (Naomi Long) and for Foyle made this point—is the basis on which we make judgments about the parties, which is where this debate started. Should a television debate include all parties, those that reach a certain threshold of Members of the House, or those putting forward a certain number of candidates? Do those candidates have to stand nationally? Will the debates be based on the results of the last Westminster elections or the latest opinion polls? If we are to have a fair framework those issues must be considered by an independent body.

In conclusion, we cannot afford in this election to have the same shambles as we experienced in the previous one: it is not becoming to democracy or to the parties involved, and it is distracting. I suspect that the debate about the debate will be more interesting than the debate itself, especially if we end up with a seven-party squabble on TV, or a debate where the main issue is, “Why is the Prime Minister not sitting there and why is there an empty chair?”, or whatever.

Sometimes there are things that we as politicians can be blamed for, but I do not believe that the finger of blame in this instance can be primarily pointed at us. It is unfair that all the attention is directed on the Prime Minister, because he had a reasonable case for saying that the BBC was setting rules that placed him at an unfair advantage, so why should he co-operate in its game. If we are to avoid that in future, some of the proposals in this motion should be adhered to, followed through and worked on, so that even if we do not sort it out this time, we can sort it out for the next election.

Government Contracts (SMEs)

Sammy Wilson Excerpts

Wednesday 28th January 2015 Westminster Hall

[Dr McCrea]

I absolutely agree with my hon. Friend and will also deal with that as we continue with the debate.

[Sammy Wilson (East Antrim) (DUP)]

I am sure my hon. Friend will touch on the matter, but does he accept that part of the problem lies with the procurement rules that we inherit from Europe as part of an attempt to create the single market? They lay down pretty draconian requirements when it comes to bidding for Government contracts. We ought to be looking at how those requirements can be amended and how we can raise thresholds to avoid some of the European regulations on procurement.

[Dr McCrea]

I agree, but even within the European regulations, there are things we can do and that the Government should do more of to alleviate some of the problems that my hon. Friend mentions.

In the 2013 autumn statement, the Chancellor included measures designed to benefit small businesses, including the introduction of a £2,000 employment allowance from April 2014, making it cheaper to employ staff aged under 21. That incentive, according to the Government, will benefit up to 1.25 million businesses and result in about 450,000 businesses, or one third of all employers, being taken out of paying national insurance contributions altogether.

After the autumn statement, the Government launched the “Small business: GREAT ambition” scheme in December 2013—a series of measures designed to make it easier for small businesses to expand, including the introduction of broadband vouchers worth up to £3,000 in 22 cities throughout the United Kingdom, which were designed to let more small firms access faster broadband connectivity. It is disappointing to note, however, that Malcolm Corbett, head of the Independent Networks Co-operative Association, has said:

“The scheme has not proved as successful as the Government had hoped”.

I therefore encourage those businesses eligible to avail themselves of the scheme before the March 2015 deadline to do so.

--- Later in debate ---

[Dr McCrea]

I would not like to make policy on the hoof. An array of party colleagues are listening carefully and we are coming up to an election, so I would rather that my party make any policy decision.

[Sammy Wilson]

Before my hon. Friend moves on, does he accept that there is considerable merit in the point raised about the green procurement card, especially when it comes to the purchase of fresh food for schools and hospitals, which can be locally sourced? There is an environmental as well as an economic argument for sourcing such goods and services locally.

[Dr McCrea]

I am happy to agree with my hon. Friend on that point and am delighted that he has a genuine interest in that environmental issue. I am sure that will be noted carefully.

The old proverb says, “Give a man a fish and you feed him for a day. Teach him to fish and you feed him for life.” Although Stephen Allott, the Government’s appointed SME champion, argues that the

“big change is that procurement reform under Labour was a nice thing to have, whereas today saving money is central”,

the Government need to realise that people’s livelihoods are at stake. Owners of SMEs have often bravely given up a comfortable lifestyle and made significant investment to start up businesses from scratch. They are not mere pawns on a Government chessboard to be played when election time comes around. Much more needs to be done to upskill SMEs in the public procurement process. If a supplier has not bid before and is not very skilled at completing the tender, although it might be the best supplier, it will not win the contract. That was the point raised by my hon. Friend the Member for Upper Bann (David Simpson) a few moments ago.

Interestingly, Mr Allott has stated that the difficulty in fast-tracking the SME agenda arises because of staff cutbacks in the public sector, and notably cuts to the number of individuals in procurement. Such streamlining has led to greater aggravation. It may on occasion save the taxpayer money, but it does nothing to support SMEs. Mr Allott has gone further, stating that the pressures now borne by remaining procurement staff have led many to

“stick with the suppliers they know rather than spend time researching potential partners or having speculative meetings with untried suppliers”—

so it is not what you know but who you know. That leaves SMEs isolated while large companies continue to court those with influence.

On indirect contracts, how will the Government ensure there is a “David and Goliath” approach to prevent prime contractors from driving down prices and creaming off the best work for themselves, leaving slender pickings for their smaller partners? What will the Government’s SMEs champion be doing to help SMEs to get the best possible deal when working with large companies?

--- Later in debate ---

[Mr Iain McKenzie (Inverclyde) (Lab)]

It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Davies, for what I believe is the first time. I again congratulate the hon. Member for South Antrim (Dr McCrea) on securing this very interesting debate on public procurement—having heard myself say that, I may need to get out more if I find public procurement an interesting subject to debate.

I have witnessed procurement in the public and the private sectors. Indeed, in my time in local government, I was glad that our procurement was brought into line with some of the private sector practices and brought up to date. In my local environment, we had to bring in many of the SME businesses to spread the money around and create as much opportunity as we could.

We are all aware that small and medium-sized businesses are the backbone of the British economy and we need to ensure that central Government and local government do everything they can to help them through procurement procedures. The hon. Member for South Antrim gave a lot more statistics than I ever have to hand, but I can say that SMEs account for a large part of the private sector business in the UK and, I believe, 58% of private sector employment. That equates to 14 million people up and down the country being employed in SMEs.

This is about keeping things as local as possible. We know that 83p in every pound spent by local government procurers with local businesses will go back into the local economy. That in turn will stimulate the local economy and provide real employment opportunities there. It is a question of people stretching procurement as far as they can to get the biggest payback on what they are putting out there for goods and services.

SMEs are a major driving force of our economy and deserve their fair share of public sector procurement. Public sector bodies, including central Government, spend about £220 billion a year on goods and services. That indicates the complexity of the procurement. They procure everything from paperclips to chemicals—you name it. Government procurement is extremely complex.

Progress has been made in public sector procurement, and I will go on to highlight some of the advances made by the Government. I accept that steps have been taken and advances made. We have gone from almost a “catalogue” procurement process to what we see today—an approach that is more embracing of best practice and best value. I referred to a “catalogue” approach to procurement, which was simply taking something off the shelf and saying, “We have purchased from them for the last 10 years, so we’ll continue to purchase from them for the next 10.” That was not the best way to enable SMEs to get in on procurement by public bodies.

However, more could be done to improve the best-value approach. Not least is the fact that best value does not always mean the cheapest price, and what about people doing contract monitoring over the length of a contract to prove that they have a valued and performing supplier? We need to evidence contract monitoring if we are to make progress on procuring more locally and putting more into SMEs.

Public procurement is an underused tool when it comes to keeping trade as local as possible to local government and central Government spreading contracts around the country. It is essential that the Government take that on and spread the contracts as far and as wide as possible around the country. They should not simply look at a certain area where most of the spend takes place. If we are to regenerate areas, we can do so through Government procurement.

We also need to enhance contracts that we put out there by writing into the terms and conditions employment opportunities such as apprenticeships and therefore get more for the money we spend. More than half of SMEs believe that the process of tendering for Government contracts requires, as we have heard, more time and resources than their business can allow, making the tendering process too costly and time consuming.

We can take as an example what I have already highlighted—e-procurement. This is about going out and educating SMEs on what they need for e-procurement, and a common mistake is for them to fall into the same practice they used for tendering processes. As we have highlighted, broadband issues lead to difficulties when people are trying to download a tendering document, which takes a bit of time. It will bomb out at the last minute and, hey presto, they have missed out on the contract.

[Sammy Wilson]

The hon. Gentleman is making some thoughtful and worthwhile points, but does he not accept that the more we build into the contract and the procurement process not only price, but the qualitative issues he has talked about, as well as ongoing issues such as apprenticeships and employing the long-term unemployed, the more that adds to the complexity and the paperwork involved in the procurement process and to the monitoring of the contract? There is a balance to be struck between, on the one hand, taking the simple approach of looking at price only and, on the other, looking at quality, employment opportunities and all the other qualitative elements of a procurement exercise.

[Mr McKenzie]

I accept the hon. Gentleman’s point, but if procurement does one thing, it should be to get the most for what is spent. Monitoring whether we get jobs, especially apprenticeships, out of procurement would not be too difficult. The local council in my area has done that for many contracts. Those contracts have been gratefully received, and we have been really successful in keeping our youth unemployment down to a low level using those contracts.

--- Later in debate ---

[Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP)]

It is a pleasure to speak in the debate, Mr Davies. I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for South Antrim (Dr McCrea) on setting the scene, which he did clearly and specifically with reference to his own area. I thank other hon. Members for their speeches. It is a pleasure to see the Minister in his place—I look forward to his response—as well as the shadow Minister, the hon. Member for Wigan (Lisa Nandy). Yesterday some of us, in discussion with her, mentioned that there were 100 days to the general election, but she said she was more interested in the next 91 days, because in 91 days’ time something more important for her will happen. We wish her well for when that occasion arrives—congratulations.

This debate is about a topic central to economic progress, on which opportunities to speak are much sought after. SMEs are an area of great importance for Northern Ireland for many reasons. We each have numerous SMEs in our constituencies, and in Strangford they are vital to job creation. There are four or five that began from a small kernel or seed and now employ about 200 people. They are of the utmost importance, because they have been proved to be vital to rebuilding and strengthening the economy in times of much economic uncertainty, such as the past five years. Not only that, but they form the centre of any financial strategy for progress with sustainable regional and national growth. For those reasons we should in all ways promote and encourage entrepreneurship in SMEs. My concerns have to do with funding—its availability, information about it, and the ability of anyone to apply for it.

Another concern stems from the multi-level governance dimension. In the coming months much responsibility will fall to local government, with the reform of the Northern Ireland council structure. Additionally, there are concerns about forthcoming EU directives and their implications for SMEs and Government contracts. A particular European issue recently has been changes to how EU directives will affect SMEs. Figures I have been given suggest that perhaps 150 to 200 SMEs have been forced to close as a result. Perhaps the Minister will comment on that.

I cannot emphasise enough how important SMEs are to Northern Ireland’s economy; I hope that that is shown by Northern Ireland’s European entrepreneurial region status for 2015, which has a focus on SMEs. I congratulate agencies such as Invest NI, local councils and all the SMEs that contributed to achieving that status. A lot of effort went into striving for it, and that effort delivered. I thank everyone who made it a reality. It shows that we are already charging forward in investing in our people, their creativity and their innovation, all three of which are important. What has been achieved is a recognition that we need to put support for such endeavours at the top of our agenda for stimulating sustainable growth and development.

For one thing, local businesses in Northern Ireland were responsible for 90% of the employment increase since 2011. That figure should not be ignored; it represents an astounding one in seven of the working population being employed because of an SME. Invest NI support for local businesses has created or promoted 1,783 jobs from April to the end of November, through targets to assist in SME expansion. Arlene Foster, the Minister at the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Investment, and our friend and colleague in the Northern Ireland Assembly, has been active in that area, and has made it a priority. She is very photogenic and is regularly in the paper announcing the expansion of jobs. It is great when that happens on a regular basis in Northern Ireland.

All that should be celebrated, but there is still a long way to go before SMEs gain the clout that they need to compete against larger competitors, as my hon. Friend the Member for South Antrim suggested in his detailed and informative introduction. It is troubling that small businesses in Northern Ireland exported only 4.8% across the EU, while larger businesses exported 80%. There is clearly a gap in our efforts to assist smaller enterprises, which must be addressed with much haste, as my hon. Friend said.

[Sammy Wilson]

Although we are hearing about the downside to procurement and all the rest of it, there are encouraging signs in Northern Ireland. A small company that starts up in Northern Ireland will last 75% longer than a similar company anywhere else in the United Kingdom. We need to put out the message that start-ups are very successful and there is resilience.

[Jim Shannon]

We all value my hon. Friend’s knowledge of business life in Northern Ireland, and he makes a valuable contribution to the debate. Some 30,000 micro-businesses accounted for 89% of local companies. We must emphasise the need to look at the barriers that prevent the rise of SMEs, especially with regard to Government contracts, and address them coherently and fully. Steps have already been taken to look at the accessibility of funding, to simplify the application process and to remove the red tape of bureaucracy that bumps up the costs of application and development in public procurement.

I sometimes wonder how anyone ever gets through the early stages of a business. Years ago, there was less bureaucracy, but today we seem to be entangled with it at almost every level. On the ground, SMEs still find it difficult, costly and sometimes unfeasible to compete with larger competitors.

I congratulate the councils, Invest NI, South East Economic Development and other agencies. Financing their endeavours is only the first of many hurdles faced by SMEs, and it is vital to their success. To have that stage of the process so well accounted for by those valuable agencies is paramount. Through the assistance of such agencies, bank loans to SMEs totalled £408 million in the second quarter of 2014, which represents a rise of 29% on the previous quarter.

Although that work has been important and successful, there is still a lack of clarity about how to identify and access the many sources of available support. I would reject any process that further impeded the accessibility of money through more and more layers of bureaucracy. As of 1 April, Northern Ireland will downsize to a new system of 11 regional super-councils, through which we will do our best to simplify the process and walk SMEs through the steps of accessing Government contracts and funding.

The Northern Ireland Members present are all former Members of the Northern Ireland Assembly. My hon. Friend the Member for Upper Bann (David Simpson) reminded me when we were preparing for the debate that the Northern Ireland Assembly insisted that Government contracts in Northern Ireland must include a 30-day payment scheme for those who had contracts, many of whom previously had to wait 90 days or longer for payment. It is absolutely ridiculous that small companies should have to wait so long. We can take some credit for moving forward that process in Northern Ireland.

I welcome the fact that the UK Government have pushed forward in their goal of awarding 25% of Government contracts to SMEs. Entrepreneurship will drive our economy forward through innovation and creativity. Therefore, we really need to make the leap of innovation—of becoming a successful endeavour—an attractive idea, given the risks of setting up and upholding an SME.

My hon. Friend the Member for North Antrim (Ian Paisley) referred to broadband, which is a problem not only in his constituency but in all our constituencies. I gather from my constituents that he has had some success in banging together the heads of those responsible, and making sure that the DETI and the NIE get together and achieve success. In my constituency, we have a similar problem, and those involved in online businesses have been prevented from expanding their businesses by the lack of broadband. That seems ludicrous. I cannot understand how the problem can be so prevalent in this age of modernisation. It seems simple to me to make the connection within 100 yards of a business to help it to progress, but we find layers of bureaucracy, obstacles, obstructions and reasons for not doing so. We need to act on that system in good faith and make it better if at all possible.

I have concerns about the EU directives and their implications for our ability to invest in our vital SMEs. I acknowledge that a range of positive measures has come from the EU, and not everything is negative. I know we have lots of problems with the EU, but there are positive aspects on a regional basis, such as the merging of funding into an accessible single portal, which includes the structural funds, with an emphasis on encouraging SMEs as a pivot of national economies. However, I am concerned about the upcoming enforcement of the EU public procurement directive. The directive states that

“for public contracts above a certain value, provisions should be drawn up coordinating national procurement procedures so as to ensure that those principles are given practical effect and public procurement is opened up to competition.”

I am concerned about the implications for local, regional and national SMEs, and about our obligations to protect SMEs on a national level, given that they have put so much back into our economy—not only in growth, but in lowering unemployment levels. What exactly will that mean for the distribution of Government contracts? Will the implementation of the directive create any obligations that will impinge on our goal of awarding 25% of Government contracts to SMEs?

I welcome any measures in the public procurement directive that aim to cut red tape and assist UK companies to make the most of the single market. I hope that the promised new regulations will benefit SMEs by encouraging buyers to break contracts into smaller lots and by reducing the cost of the bidding process. The European Commission claims that they may reduce that cost by as much as 60%. SMEs in my constituency and nationwide need reassurance that the process of obtaining Government contracts will not become more elaborate, confusing or inaccessible, and that their interests will not be compromised by the implementation of the directive. I thank my hon. Friend the Member for South Antrim for giving us all a chance to contribute, and I look forward to the shadow Minister’s contribution and the Minister’s reply.

[Lisa Nandy (Wigan) (Lab)]

I thank the hon. Member for South Antrim (Dr McCrea) for initiating the debate. He was absolutely right to point out just what a force small and medium-sized business are across the country. There are 5 million of them, and they are what keeps our economy moving. He cited examples from his constituency, and I am sure that all hon. Members will have their own examples in mind. Taken together, SMEs are the single biggest employer in my constituency, and that situation is replicated in many towns, cities and rural areas throughout the country.

There is much more that we could do to support SMEs, which are one of the country’s greatest assets, and to unlock their talent, energy and commitment to their communities. I was interested to hear what the hon. Gentleman said about job creation in Northern Ireland over the past few years. It is fascinating to hear what small businesses manage to do despite all the problems and challenges that they face. Think what more they could do if we put in place more support and took away some of the barriers that they encounter.

We must acknowledge the extent to which SMEs have felt the squeeze in recent years, and the problems surrounding Government contracts, which are the focus of today’s debate, must be seen in that context. An economic policy that imposed huge front-loaded cuts on public services has undoubtedly had an impact on SMEs, because in many areas of the country—this picture is familiar to people in Wigan—that policy has created a toxic mix of unemployment, low wages and insecure jobs, which has stopped people spending money in small shops and businesses, thus costing those businesses trade and, in many cases, jobs. In a few instances, the situation has cost people their entire business, which was why I listened with interest to what the hon. Member for East Antrim (Sammy Wilson) said about the balance that must be struck between conditions on contracts and the need for simplicity. He is absolutely right to raise that point because there is a common picture throughout the country of contracts that contain unnecessary complexity that could be removed, with some concerted effort.

When we talk to SMEs, we often find that they are keen to use Government contracts as a force for social good, as my hon. Friend the Member for Inverclyde (Mr McKenzie) described when he spoke about apprenticeships and jobs, but they can need Government support to achieve that. The future jobs fund was a good example of a partnership involving public sector bodies at first, and later smaller employers that could not necessarily afford wage subsidies, but wanted to create opportunities. The programme had a significant effect on young people.

In my area, as is the case in many parts of the country, making the living wage a condition of contracts has been hugely helpful for many SMEs, partly because that means that they do not have to engage in a race to the bottom to undercut prices, because if the requirement to pay the living wage is clearly set out in a contract, such companies can compete without driving down the conditions of their work force. SMEs also benefit from that approach because if more people in towns such as mine are paid the living wage, it is more likely that they will have surplus income to spend in local shops and businesses, meaning that the cycle continues.

It is right to recognise that the picture has been very difficult for many SMEs across the country. The huge front-loaded cuts to many local authorities, health services and other public sector bodies have meant that SMEs have lost contracts. Many small businesses that could borrow money easily from banks on a short-term, sustainable basis a few years ago are now struggling due to the loss of trade and contracts. Taken together, all those things have been problematic for this group of businesses.

Despite the cuts, and although central Government are not handing out large contracts or spending huge amounts on public services, and are unlikely to ramp up that spending any time soon, there is far more that they could do by using the range of tools at their disposal. That was why the hon. Member for South Antrim was right to focus on Government contracts and procurement, which are among central Government’s biggest tools for good. Central Government spend £40 billion a year on goods and services, about 10% of which goes directly to SMEs. Over time—I am not making a party political point because this has happened over a considerable period—a trend has developed for putting in place centralised contractual arrangements that, for various reasons, have tended to shut smaller organisations out of the process altogether. As a result, businesses that are closest to their communities, and that deliver services and do the good that hon. Members have talked about, have become subcontractors in a supply chain, if they are able to compete at all. My hon. Friend the Member for Inverclyde said that he might need to get out more, and while I could not possibly comment on that, perhaps the same is true for the Government, because there is a regional and local picture to consider, too.

[Sammy Wilson]

Does the hon. Lady accept that, at a time of fiscal constraint, there is a need to get value for money from contracts? That sometimes means that contracts need to be centralised, but one way around that might be to encourage consortiums of small businesses to apply for larger contracts, because such contracts do not necessarily have to exclude small businesses. I sometimes wonder whether we have explored all options of how we ensure that we can have large contracts while still involving smaller firms in delivery.

[Lisa Nandy]

The hon. Gentleman is absolutely right. I was just about to address the difficulty that small and medium-sized companies face when bidding for public sector contracts. The hon. Member for South Antrim talked about the lengthy, expensive and unnecessarily complicated process, and the lack of support, so I will not rehearse those points to the Minister, although I am interested in his response to them.

One way in which we can ensure that small and medium-sized businesses are not shut out of the procurement process is by moving that process much closer to communities through the devolution agenda, with more commissioning at a regional level. In the past few years, local enterprise partnerships have been established in the place of the regional development agencies, which were very successful. In some areas, local enterprise partnerships still have to bed in, and we can do much more at the local, regional and national levels to make them work for local communities. I see this being played out at the local level, too, but when resources are scarce in local, national or regional government, there is a perceived tension between getting value for money and giving contracts to local providers or those that can offer over and above in relation to the social good. In reality, small and medium-sized companies are much more effective at delivering such contracts because they are rooted in their community, because they see the social impact of what they do and because they can have regard to a range of factors beyond just day-to-day profit making.

There is a good example of that, from which I hope the Government have learned. During the commissioning process for the Work programme, some smaller providers, including a number from the voluntary sector, pulled out because they felt that they could not make an impact through their contracts. We can see a good example of the problem of contracts being dominated by bigger companies, with smaller organisations acting as sub-primes, because St Mungo’s, the homelessness charity, pulled out because not one person was referred to it through the Work programme during the period of its contract. It is inconceivable to think that, had St Mungo’s been given the contract directly, it would have been unable to find people who were desperate to get into work and could have benefited from the intervention it could offer.

The hon. Gentleman was right to say that such dominance by a small number of larger companies is not effective at any level—it is not good for the public or for SMEs. This is not just about SMEs getting what they deserve; it is about ensuring that we are delivering the best value for money in our communities and across the country.

In the time I have remaining, I will address the length of time it takes for payment to reach SMEs for the services that they provide. We hear the complaint that bigger companies are contracted and small companies have to act as sub-primes. The Government could do much more to act in instances when they have made a payment to a prime provider but that has not yet reached the smaller company at the bottom of the chain.

[Sammy Wilson]

A possible solution when there is a substantial number of subcontractors is the greater use of project bank accounts. Rather than money being paid to the main contractor, it goes into a project bank account to be drawn out as invoices come in. In Northern Ireland, a main contractor can be excluded from applying for public sector contracts for a specified period of time if there are complaints that it is clearly not abiding by the terms of a contract.

[Lisa Nandy]

I would welcome the Minister’s response to the hon. Gentleman’s intervention.

Although the Government’s record on prompt payment is better than that of the private sector, the National Audit Office found a few weeks ago that the figures are skewed by the Government making prompter payments to a few large suppliers. Astonishingly, it is virtually impossible to assess the record of the Cabinet Office and many other Departments because paper invoices are not dated when they arrive, which is a method commonly used by smaller organisations. Despite the Government’s rhetoric, the situation betrays a casual attitude to something that can be make or break for many small businesses. It would be helpful to know what the Minister has done in the past few weeks to address the situation. Were the Government to pay invoices within five calendar days rather than 30, the reduced interest cost to businesses could be worth up to £88 million, according to the NAO, and the reduced cost to the taxpayer could be up to £55 million. The NAO report called for strategic leadership from the Government and I hope the Minister agrees that it is important that the Cabinet Office leads on this by ensuring that its own suppliers are paid on time.

In conclusion, the Government could draw on the success of other countries. Labour would set up a small business administration that could work to mainstream and hardwire such activity in government. That would require a huge cultural change, but there are small things that the Government could do more quickly, such as taking action on late payments, to signal their intent to unlock one of this country’s biggest assets.

[The Minister for Civil Society (Mr Rob Wilson)]

I am grateful to the hon. Member for South Antrim (Dr McCrea) for securing this debate on such an important subject. I know that much of his concern is born from the experience of a constituency case, and it is absolutely right that he should speak up for small businesses in his constituency. I join him in congratulating all those wealth creators who take the risk of running their own businesses and, ultimately, pay for the public services that we all enjoy.

From the outset, this Government have fully recognised the vital role that small and medium-sized businesses have to play in helping us to achieve the best possible value for money when we buy goods and services. That was why we included in our initial programme for government an aspiration that by the end of this Parliament 25% of direct and indirect Government procurement of goods and services by value should go to SMEs.

That was a bold step considering that, under the previous Government, Departments had no idea how much they were spending on SMEs. After a lot of hard work, we found that it amounted to 6.5% of Government procurement of goods and services in 2009-10, or £3.1 billion. That was a shamefully low figure, given that 95.5% of private sector businesses in the UK are micro-firms—companies with fewer than 10 employees. However, those micro-businesses together accounted for 32% of private sector employment and 20% of private sector turnover.

We recognised that something had to be done to remove the barriers facing SMEs bidding for Government contracts, and we have gone a long way to removing those barriers. During the past four years, we have increased accessibility and transparency, identified and tackled poor procurement practice and provided practical assistance to help SMEs. We are now taking steps to extend those reforms further across the public sector.

In 2011, to increase accessibility, the Government established the Contracts Finder for central Government. That is a one-stop shop to enable suppliers to find procurement and subcontracting opportunities, tender documents and contracts online and free of charge. The Government have also committed, for the first time, to the publication of future contract opportunities to provide greater transparency about future public sector business, and to help suppliers to plan for and win more business.

Contract pipelines also enable the Government to secure deals that offer better value for the taxpayer by allowing for early negotiation with suppliers. The contract pipelines have developed from £40 billion of future spend in 2011 to more than £191 billion on 19 pipelines by December 2014. This information provides a view of major contracting opportunities through to 2020 and beyond, and it includes projected spend on High Speed 2 and the Thames tunnel, to give just two examples.

We have also appointed Stephen Allott as Crown representative for SMEs to be a

“strong voice at the top table”

for SMEs. He works across Government, and with SMEs and their trade associations, to get full value from SMEs and to increase the number of SMEs bidding for and winning Government contracts. We also set up the Cabinet Office SME panel to provide a regular forum for SMEs to raise the issues that concern them most and to hold our feet, as a Government, to the fire.

[Sammy Wilson]

Will the Minister give way?

[Mr Rob Wilson]

I will continue for a little bit longer, if I may, because I have to get through a lot of questions to which I know the hon. Gentleman and others want answers.

To identify poor procurement practice, we have introduced a mystery shopper service. If a supplier encounters poor practice, such as an over-bureaucratic pre-qualification requirement or unreasonable selection criteria, they can blow the whistle and refer that to our mystery shopper service, which will raise it on their behalf with the contracting authority. We regularly publish the outcomes of mystery shopper investigations on the gov.uk website. We have now received nearly 800 mystery shopper cases, with four out of five investigations resulting in a positive outcome.

In addition, the mystery shopper service has started proactively spot checking procurements by examining procurement documents online. We have instigated nearly 500 spot checks to look at a range of aspects of procurement, and have found issues in around 20% of the checks that we have conducted, including burdensome pre-qualification questionnaires.

Some 45 of those spot checks tested compliance with the Public Services (Social Value) Act 2012 and involved asking contracting authorities to set out how they considered the requirements of the Act in the pre-procurement stage of service contracts. The sort of evidence that we look for includes whether any consultation took place with the market, and with current and potential service users, and how the conclusions drawn from such consultation were used to shape the requirement. In total, 20% of the authorities examined were unable to provide sufficient evidence of compliance, so we have advised them to ensure they consider the Act in future.

We are particularly conscious of the burden of pre-qualification questionnaires, which are used to select suppliers to be invited to tender, and the pressure that they can place on SMEs. To address that situation, we have eliminated the use of PQQs in 15 out of 17 Departments for all central Government procurement under the EU threshold of approximately £100,000. The two Departments still using PQQs—the Foreign and Commonwealth Office and the Ministry of Defence—are doing so only for security reasons. For those procurements that still require a PQQ, we have introduced a much simpler standard set of questions, which reduces the burden on suppliers and levels the playing field in terms of financial risk and evidence of experience.

We recognise that being paid promptly is vital to enable SMEs to manage their cash flows and to reduce the amount of time wasted on chasing invoices. We are determined to help businesses to manage their cash flows and to transform the culture of late payment. In 2010, to respond to the point made by the hon. Member for Wigan (Lisa Nandy), the Government reiterated our policy of paying 80% of undisputed invoices within five days and ensuring that the prime contractors pay tier 2 suppliers within 30 days as a condition of contracting with Departments. We expect our suppliers to follow our example on prompt payment and to pay their subcontractors within the 30-day limit. When this does not happen, we encourage suppliers to report late payment to the mystery shopper service.

We know that we need to do more to improve performance across the public sector, however. We have made much progress in the past four years, but following recommendations by Lord Young of Graffham, we now intend to extend these reforms across the public sector to non-devolved bodies such as the NHS and local councils in England.

We intend to introduce measures in the next few weeks to ensure that 30-day payment terms flow down the public sector supply chains into all new contracts, which will ensure that smaller suppliers benefit from prompt payment. Contracts Finder will be extended to become a one-stop shop for public sector contract opportunities. We have fully redeveloped the original site to make it more user-friendly, including by creating a powerful search facility to make it easier to find and bid for work, and providing the ability to look up contracts by location and postcode. The site will function on multiple devices.

I am conscious of the time, but I want to cover as many of the questions that were asked as possible. We heard about EU procurement rules being unwieldy, and we have negotiated a new procurement directive that will improve the chances of SMEs winning public contracts. Regulations to transpose that directive will be introduced very soon.

As for the EU procurement requirement, as part of this year’s new public contract legislation, there will be more open approaches for supplier procurement and a reaching out to more suppliers, including SMEs. The documentation required from SMEs is being reduced to make it easier for them to access opportunities. The UK engaged proactively in negotiations on a new directive on SMEs and EU markets.

I was asked about aggregating demand with regard to helping SMEs. Breaking large contracts into more manageable lots is key to ensuring that SMEs can compete for aggregated deals, and the new procurement regulations will require contracting authorities actively to consider that. The new public contracts regulations will apply across the whole public sector, apart from devolved bodies, and will include Lord Young’s recommendation to abolish PQQs. Under Lord Young’s reforms, we are requiring the public sector generally to advertise contracts on Contracts Finder. This includes an option to highlight any opportunity as applying to an SME.

The hon. Member for South Antrim talked about an individual company. The Highways Agency fully supports the use of Conemaster on its road networks. It has funded its use in road trials, as well as an analysis of its economic performance, which showed that Conemaster demonstrated a positive benefit-cost ratio of 2:1.

I think that is about as far as I will get on answering hon. Members’ questions, but I would like to say finally that we—

Recall of MPs Bill

Sammy Wilson Excerpts

Tuesday 21st October 2014 Commons Chamber

[Mark Durkan]

I thank the hon. Gentleman for making that point. Those of us who were members of the pick-up band that was organised by the hon. Member for Richmond Park wanted to ensure that there could be a trigger other than a parliamentary trigger, or a trigger from the courts, and the idea of putting what could be termed a 5% premise petition in the hands of constituents struck us as reasonable. Having been received, the petition would then have to be tested by a more qualified assessment—the 20% petition—and if that was successful, it would be followed by a referendum which would have to secure a 50% vote before a by-election could take place.

Some Members have expressed the fear that voters will be whipped up into a state of prejudice, and that there will be misrepresentation of people and a disproportionate focus on certain issues. I ask them to consider both the stages and the time scale that are proposed in the amendments that some of us support. It is even possible that the time scale is too long. The amendments would allow more protection and more measured consideration. The right hon. Member for Holborn and St Pancras (Frank Dobson) told us earlier that his constituents, who had a very clear view on a very specific issue, were eventually prepared to vote for an MP who held completely the opposite view, because they had reached a more rounded judgment on the nature of the MP’s job, and because they set great store by truth and people being honest about their opinions.

[Sammy Wilson (East Antrim) (DUP)]

As the hon. Gentleman well knows, notwithstanding the safeguards that he has described, in Northern Ireland a group with the organisational ability possessed by Sinn Fein could unseat an MP whom it believed to be vulnerable because that MP was already in a marginal seat. Such a well-organised group could surmount all the barriers that he has outlined, and request a recall on spurious grounds.

[Mark Durkan]

People can organise petitions, and perhaps they can achieve the 5% and perhaps they can then achieve the 20%, but after that there would be the referendum. Even in Northern Ireland, where people have their own views, I have always found them to be fairly tolerant of MPs with different views if they know that those MPs are being honest and diligent.

Many years ago, I had to run the campaign in South Down against Enoch Powell, who represented a minority opinion in the constituency at the time. I remember that even nationalists in that constituency said, “Well, whatever else he is, he is certainly a hard-working and diligent MP.” They did not agree with his views, but they knew his views, and they knew that he did his job. Of course, he also raised his hat to them when he was in the constituency and greeted them, and they seemed to like that as well. Even in the context of Northern Ireland, and speaking as a Member whose seat has been heavily targeted by Sinn Fein, which is investing an awful lot of effort and resources, I do not believe that fear of the outcome described by the hon. Gentleman is sufficient reason to oppose a more meaningful recall provision.

--- Later in debate ---

[Anne Marie Morris (Newton Abbot) (Con)]

The Bill is fundamental to us being a democracy, and I am proud that the Government have introduced it. We treasure democracy, and I believe we will continue to treasure it as the years progress. Being a Member of Parliament is an enormous privilege, and as a first-time MP in 2010 I have come to value that. It is a privilege because it is the only role I can think of that is based on trust—trust between the electorate and the individual. If my constituents do not trust me, or if I do not trust them, it simply does not work, and the Bill seeks to address where that trust breaks down.

I agree that there must be a real cause for recall, but I trust the people to work out whether or not there is that just cause. My problem with the Bill as currently drafted is that the decision is very much in the hands of us as MPs—after amendment of the original Bill, that decision has gone to the Standards Committee. Although the proposed amendments would introduce lay members to the Committee, I am far from convinced that the British people would accept and trust that. However the decision is made, I believe that it cannot be made by Members of Parliament.

I support my hon. Friend the Member for Richmond Park (Zac Goldsmith) in what he is trying to achieve, and he put it extraordinarily well. However, the issue of the trigger has been a continuing challenge, and the Government’s proposals, with just two triggers, have been challenged by many in the House. We are trying to find a way of giving people a say in the recall of their MPs, and that cannot be as narrow as the Bill sets out.

I entirely understand concerns that there may be abuse, but we must find a way forward. That is why, working with my hon. Friend and his committee, I suggested that one way of trying to ensure that the public know exactly what this is about, and are not filibustered by politicians, was to make it an obligation for whoever is requesting the recall to go on the record. That individual must be able and willing to come forward and put their name on the record, and someone who is a political mischief maker and whose name is well known will therefore give a message to the public about exactly what is behind that process of recall. Having somebody on the record whose name is made public is important, and I fought long and hard in the committee, where we discussed a number of amendments, to ensure that that was included.

The second point I fought hard for was the need for a reason. For all the reasons that the triggers are too narrow, there must none the less be something that sets out clearly what lies behind the recall and is known to the public. Not only must those reasons be set out clearly in the document, they must also be present, along with the name of the sponsor, in every polling station, so that anybody voting in the referendum knows who is proposing the recall and the reason for it.

Even that is not enough, however, and to me it is important that the Member of Parliament has a right of reply. That is absent from the Bill. It is mission critical for an MP to have that right of reply, and that that is on the table with the name of the sponsor and the reasons given for the recall so that Members of the public are fully informed about the decision they are making. No system is perfect, but I believe that that system is fairer and more reasonable, and will give confidence to the British people that we are honourable: that we stand by our word, we stand by our reputation and we stand by what we say and do.

[Sammy Wilson]

The very fact that the hon. Lady has outlined so many safeguards is an indication that she knows the process would be open to abuse, and that people would wish to abuse it. Her first suggestion is for a name to be on the front of the petition or whatever so we know who is sponsoring it, but surely any organisation would get an unknown and innocuous supporter to put their name to it, just as happens with judicial reviews in Northern Ireland on planning applications and so on, where the real person behind them is not known.

[Anne Marie Morris]

I would love to think that we lived in a world where we were all saints and there were no sinners. Clearly, there will be individuals who might well try to abuse the system. However, there is no system, whether it is the system my hon. Friend the Member for Richmond Park puts forward or the Government system, that is completely proof from any abuse. I take issue with the challenge from the hon. Gentleman on the name of the sponsor. I do not believe that the British people are sufficiently misguided not to look at the name. When they look at Mr Nobody, which I think is what he is suggesting, they will say, “Hold on a minute. Mr Nobody doesn’t generally get interested in these sorts of things,” and realise there is a stitch-up. I understand his concern, but we live in the real world. We do not live in a world of saints, but fortunately we do our best to deal with the sinners.

As part of the amendments put forward by my hon. Friend, what I propose will provide the comfort that I know a number of MPs want. At the end of the day, however, if we do not accept that we are here because of the trust of our constituents, and if we do not recognise that there has to be that mutual trust and respect, we have a problem. Indeed, we know we have a problem because right now people remember us for the expenses scandal. It really does not matter whether we were here at the time, we still have that black mark. We have to win that trust back and this is a very powerful way of doing it.

--- Later in debate ---

[Mr Graham Stuart (Beverley and Holderness) (Con)]

It is a pleasure to follow so many powerful speeches, none more so than that just given by my hon. Friend the Member for Bournemouth West (Conor Burns).

I have supported the efforts of my hon. Friend the Member for Richmond Park (Zac Goldsmith) in bringing forward a vision of a recall controlled by the public, not controlled, as it might be perceived, by Whips or by the Standards Committee, however well constituted. The speech by my right hon. Friend the Member for South Cambridgeshire (Mr Lansley) was telling. The question is this: is it possible to allow the public to trigger recall for wrongdoing without that being abused so that it strays into matters of conscience or towards constraining the public from deciding what is or is not wrongdoing? The Bill sets the offence at a level that leads to a custodial sentence or, in the context of this House, to a very long and severe sanction by the Standards Committee. Earlier, I posed the question of whether the public would feel cheated when somebody did something that they felt was dreadful but that, in the view of the Committee and the processes of this House, did not lead to a suspension of sufficient time to allow them to express themselves on the subject. That is at the heart of the matter, and that is what we are agonising over.

We have heard excellent speeches from, for instance, the hon. Member for Foyle (Mark Durkan), who set the issue in the Northern Ireland context. That is a good context in which to question how communities that are sometimes severely divided might seek to use the recall mechanism. Could it be misused in a way that undermines people in doing what they should do, which is to act in line with their conscience? It is worth noting that the hon. Gentleman, for his part, felt that he could trust the public, and felt that his predecessor would have been able to rely on his public even as he was doing things that they would not have agreed with, because they respected how and why he was doing them.

[Sammy Wilson]

Does the hon. Gentleman accept that all the conditions that have been attached to the recall mechanism as regards the thresholds that have to be met mean, to some extent, that those who are supporting the amendments do not trust the public because they believe that they need to put in a lot of safeguards to ensure that the public do not abuse the system?

[Mr Stuart]

That is a fair point. However, the public are not one thing, are they? The public are made up of a lot of individuals, and therefore one has to allow a certain collection of them to come together before starting to suggest that a recall reflects a wider public opinion. Otherwise we stand the chance of very small numbers of people being able to trigger it.

Oral Answers to Questions

Sammy Wilson Excerpts

Tuesday 14th October 2014 Commons Chamber

[The Attorney-General]

My hon. Friend will appreciate that corruption cases might be prosecuted by the Serious Fraud Office or, on a lower scale, by other bodies. We seek to present the evidence to the Crown Prosecution Service, if that is the appropriate body, and for it to consider in accordance with the usual test whether the evidence is there and the public interest is met for pursuing a prosecution. He will understand and know clearly that the Government’s commitment to dealing with corruption at every level is very strong, and that commitment will continue.

[Sammy Wilson (East Antrim) (DUP)]

Is the Attorney-General aware of the difficulties in obtaining successful prosecutions and the seizure of assets against criminal gangs operating from Northern Ireland involved in money laundering as a result of the non-operation of the National Crime Agency in that part of the United Kingdom?

[The Attorney-General]

Yes, of course. As the hon. Gentleman knows, the National Crime Agency’s writ does not run to Northern Ireland, but he is right that we need to work closely with the agencies that do work in Northern Ireland to ensure that we do the best we can to recover these assets. We will continue to work closely with the Northern Ireland Executive to ensure that that continues to happen.

EU Council, Security and Middle East

Sammy Wilson Excerpts

Monday 1st September 2014 Commons Chamber

[The Prime Minister]

I very much agree with my hon. Friend. In short, we need to see the rockets out, the Palestinian Authority in, and the borders and posts open so that that part of Palestine can be properly regenerated.

[Sammy Wilson (East Antrim) (DUP)]

Many of the controls being proposed will be effective only if they also apply to the Republic of Ireland, because of course people could enter the United Kingdom by coming in through ports of entry in the Republic of Ireland and across the land boundary into Northern Ireland. What discussions has the Prime Minister had with the Government of the Irish Republic on the proposals? Is it intended that intelligence will be shared with the authorities in the Republic, or will the proposals apply only to ports of entry in Great Britain, hence creating travel restrictions between Northern Ireland and the rest of the United Kingdom?

[The Prime Minister]

The hon. Gentleman makes an important point. The relationship, including on policing, security and borders, between the British and Irish Governments is probably stronger than it has been for many years, and we should build on that by discussing these measures with them and working together.

Syria and the Use of Chemical Weapons

Sammy Wilson Excerpts

Thursday 29th August 2013 Commons Chamber

[The Prime Minister]

Let me take an intervention from the Democratic Unionist party.

[Sammy Wilson (East Antrim) (DUP)]

I thank the Prime Minister for giving way. I doubt there are many people in this House who do not believe that the debate is a prelude to a decision that will eventually see us involved in Syria. Will he explain why if, as the briefing states, there have already been 14 instances of chemical weapons use, 100,000 people dead and 1.2 million people displaced, it is only now that he thinks that this is the time for greater intervention?

[The Prime Minister]

The point for considering this tougher approach is that we know there are the 14 uses of chemical weapons on a smaller scale—at least 14—and now we have this much larger use. This seems to me—and to President Obama, to President Hollande and to many others—an appropriate moment to ask whether it is time to do something to stand up for the prohibition on the use of chemical weapons. I cannot be accused on the one hand of rushing into something, while, on the other hand, being asked, “Why have you waited for 14 chemical weapons attacks before you do something?”

Oral Answers to Questions

Sammy Wilson Excerpts

Wednesday 10th July 2013 Commons Chamber

[Mike Penning]

The good news, and particularly the G8, showed the whole world the good things that are going on in Northern Ireland, and how its normalisation process has moved forward enormously. All that good news and good publicity will go if there is anything like what we saw on the streets in terms of rioting and paramilitary activity, which we should all condemn.

[Sammy Wilson (East Antrim) (DUP)]

I hope that Members on these Benches will welcome the cross-community efforts made by the hon. Member for Harlow (Robert Halfon)—an orange suit on Monday and a green suit today.

May I ask the Secretary of State how the Government intend to capitalise on opportunities for inward investment that originate from the G8 conference in Northern Ireland, and the good news that has flowed from that?

[Mike Penning]

The October investment conference that the Prime Minister will attend is the next step forward in showing normalisation and that Northern Ireland is a good place to invest. Before that, the world police and fire games—the second largest sporting event in the world—will be held in Northern Ireland, and 7,000 competitors and thousands of supporters will be in Northern Ireland to see how well it is doing.

Debate on the Address

Sammy Wilson Excerpts

Wednesday 8th May 2013 Commons Chamber

[Mr John Redwood (Wokingham) (Con)]

I welcome the Prime Minister’s speech and the contents of the Gracious Speech.

I urge my right hon. Friend to telephone the President of the United States and say that it is high time Guantanamo Bay was closed down, which we read the President is minded to do. It is a moral blot on the west that people are still there without facing trial or being released for their liberty. If there are people for whom there is not enough evidence for a proper trial but about whom there are still legitimate worries, could they not be let out under surveillance? Surely it is high time we no longer tolerated that prison.

I strongly support what the Leader of the Opposition and the Prime Minister said about our armed forces. They have shown enormous strength, great professional service and huge bravery, especially in Afghanistan. I hope that the Prime Minister and the Foreign Secretary will move to get our troops away from risk and danger in Afghanistan as soon as possible. Some might have to stay there for longer, to provide training and support, but surely the Afghans are by now sufficiently trained to do the patrolling and take on the more dangerous tasks. They have the local languages and contacts. I want our troops out of risk and out of danger. So many have died. They have created the conditions in which the Afghans can now have a more secure future, so please now trust the Afghans and take our troops away from those risks.

I hope that the Prime Minister will be extremely careful about being dragged into any intervention in Syria. None of us likes what the regime is doing—the terror, the bombing and the huge loss of life is unacceptable —but we also know that the forces of opposition range from the friendly and those in favour of democracy and liberty to very different types of people whom we would not normally choose to be our allies. While I welcome the Prime Minister’s wish to use what diplomatic weight the United Kingdom has to try to find a solution, I hope that he will resist any hot-headed moves to commit our troops to Syria, whether directly on the ground or indirectly, and be very careful about the idea that killing some more Syrians might be a helpful contribution to an extremely dangerous situation.

I welcome the fact that the Gracious Speech has relatively few Bills in it. That is very good news. We legislate too much in this House, and we often legislate in haste and repent at our leisure. I think everybody would agree that this Government are trying to reform a very large number of things already. A lot of very complex legislation has been put through affecting many of our public services. Surely now is the time for Ministers to supervise those reforms and ensure that they are well thought through, properly administered and embedded, while the rest of us must subject them, and every penny of public spending that Ministers propose, to increasingly extensive scrutiny.

This Government face a mighty task. They inherited an extremely broken and damaged economy. All Ministers now need to lend their weight and their talent to dealing with that one central issue and not get too distracted by other things of interest abroad, and we in this House need to make sure that every penny they propose to spend is well spent, because the origins of our debt and borrowing crisis lie in an enormous surge in public spending. Unfortunately, some of that spending was not well judged and did not lead to the better schools and hospitals that all parties and people of good will want but, instead, added to the complexity, the unnecessary cost and sometimes the waste throughout the public services.

In order to promote this economic recovery, I hope that my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister will inject a new sense of urgency through his new energy Minister in the Department of Energy and Climate Change. One of the most oppressive things about our current economic situation is the very high energy prices that have been imposed on individuals, families and businesses, and we now need to regard cheaper energy as fundamental to getting better economic growth. Our American friends and competitors have energy prices 50% below our own for running industry, which these days is often more energy-intensive than labour-intensive. That is too big a gap, and it is a matter of great urgency. I hope the Government will look very carefully at ways to get energy prices down and to go for cheaper energy in the United Kingdom.

[Sammy Wilson (East Antrim) (DUP)]

Does the right hon. Gentleman agree that the pursuit of misconceived green energy policies has contributed to the problem that he is identifying—namely, that we are now one of the most expensive places to generate energy in Europe and as a result our industries are suffering as regards competitiveness?

[Mr Redwood]

I think that the Government need to re-examine the whole carbon tax regime, which is not imposed by our Asian or American competitors, and the balance of power generation for electricity, because we seem to choose to generate a rather high proportion by extremely expensive means. I would impose this simple test: is it going to work and is it going to be cheaper?

The Government would be wise to understand that we may not be too far away from an unfortunate conjunction of events on a cold winter’s day when there is no wind blowing and we are very short of energy. I am worried that a number of our important old power stations are being pensioned off or forcibly converted before we have put the alternatives in place. As the Prime Minister has rightly said, that should have been done by the previous Government, who spent 13 years arguing over whether to have new nuclear or new gas and did not put in place the replacement and back-up power that we clearly need with a strategy that relies heavily on wind and other intermittent renewables and where an EU set of rules requires us to close down prematurely a series of older power stations that we might still need.

Indeed, I would hope that one of the new energy Minister’s urgent decisions will be to ask for permission or derogation to keep open some of the older power stations for another two or three years while the Government put in place the necessary permits, licences and investment framework for the replacement power stations—which will, I think, have to be gas powered—in order to ensure back-up and security of supply. One of the important tasks of government in the overall task of keeping the country secure is to keep the lights on, and we need to do more to make sure that that is happening.

I hope that my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister will encourage the Chancellor to go further and faster in sorting out the banks. Some of us are extremely impatient about the way in which the Royal Bank of Scotland, the recipient of so much public subsidy and shareholding, is still not able to help finance a proper recovery. It is extremely difficult to have a strong economic recovery in this country at a time when our major bank is still undertaking such a massive slimming programme and trying to reduce its loans and exposure to risk because it got itself into difficulties under the previous regulators and remains in difficulties under the new regulators. There are regulatory fixes; I do not wish to go into the technical details, but I hope that my right hon. Friend the Chancellor will move quickly and more purposefully to split up RBS and create working banks to finance the faster recovery that all parties in this House clearly want.

That would also help with private infrastructure. Those on the Government and, I think, Labour Front Benches are keen to promote more large infrastructure projects, and it would be very good if they could be financed privately. We are many years beyond the initiation of that idea under Labour, and then under the coalition, but we are yet to see the commitment of large financing to the power, transport and wider broadband and other communications projects needed for economic development and to trigger more economic growth through the construction industry. I hope that more attention will be directed to tackling those issues.

I am very pleased that at the core of the Gracious Speech, as the Prime Minister said, is his wish to do more to control our borders sensibly. I am a free-enterprise free trader—I am all in favour of talent coming in and of diversity in our country. However, I think that most of us believe that far too many people came in far too quickly, creating difficulties for housing, health and other service provision. When new people arrive in our country, we want them, as well as the people already settled here, to enjoy a reasonable lifestyle and for that to be achieved at a pace with which the existing community is happy.

I think the big mood of anger that we saw in Thursday’s elections stems from the feeling that many people have that some of those who arrive in our country get free and easy access to public services and benefits before they become British citizens and valued members of our community. People ask, “Is this fair at a time of cuts, pressure and difficulty? Can we really afford to have hundreds of thousands of new people coming in who are immediately eligible for high-quality public services and welfare provision?” When we see the details of what the Prime Minister is suggesting, I hope that a fair and sensible system will be introduced.

In meeting the European Union obligations on the freedom and movement of workers, it would be a very good idea to say that while of course people can come in to take a job, that would not make them eligible to receive a welfare or top-up benefit of any kind, and that it would not give them automatic entitlement to a lot of fringe benefits for their wider family. It should be the free movement of workers, not the free movement of benefit-seekers. I believe that the contributory principle is enforced in other parts of the EU, so why do we not have a rule that says that people can get access to welfare benefits and services only if they have paid national insurance for five years, or—to cover those who are already settled here but who, through no fault of their own, have not been fortunate enough to have a decent work record—if they have been in full-time education in Britain for five years? We need to look at whether we can use that contributory principle to provide some discipline.

Something that is of great interest to the trade union movement and the Labour party, as well as to the rest of us, is the impact that high volumes of migration have had on wages. Because Britain has been such a welcoming home to so many people, it has seen a large number of migrants from the rest of Europe. That has undoubtedly acted as a damper on wage levels at the lower end of the market. Often, people of great talent and skill come in and do jobs well beneath their skill level for very low wages because they are better than the wages where they come from. Some of that is a good thing, but too much of it creates enormous difficulties because it means that people who have been here for many years or were born here cannot get a job, the overall level of wages is rather low and living standards are not as high as we would like. That causes anger and tension in local communities.

Debate on the Address

Sammy Wilson Excerpts

Wednesday 9th May 2012 Commons Chamber

[Sammy Wilson (East Antrim) (DUP)]

Banking reform is important for the United Kingdom as a whole but especially important for Northern Ireland. We have a dysfunctional banking system, because so many banks have been caught up with bad property loans and so on. Does my right hon. Friend agree with me and people in Northern Ireland that the Government need to focus more on how measures to ease banking will affect banks in Northern Ireland and ensure that we get our fair share of credit easing and so on?

[Mr Dodds]

As Minister for Finance and Personnel in the Northern Ireland Executive, my hon. Friend deals with such issues on a daily basis, and he and his colleagues, including Arlene Foster, the enterprise Minister, and others are working hard to deal with them. He points, rightly, to the particular issues in Northern Ireland. Two of our banks are based in the Irish Republic. The property collapse in the Irish Republic and its eurozone problems are impacting strongly on the Northern Ireland economy. He is right, therefore, that particular attention needs to be given to how credit easing plays through to Northern Ireland, where we have peculiar circumstances that do not affect other parts of the UK.

One reason we have been pushing strongly—we have received a reasonably warm response—on the need to reduce corporation tax in Northern Ireland is that we share a land frontier with the Irish Republic, which has a much lower rate of corporation tax. I look forward to an announcement on that and other issues in this Session and perhaps to legislation in the next Session.

We welcome the emphasis on cutting business regulation. The Business Secretary’s remarks yesterday about the need to roll back the EU regulatory burden were also most welcome. We also support moves on executive pay. The recent revolts by shareholders in companies such as Aviva and Barclays brought cheer to hard-working families, but more needs to be done to empower shareholders through binding votes on pay at the top level. Such measures matter to people out there in the country, and they want action taken on them. That is where the focus needs to be.

We welcome the fact that driving under the influence of drugs will become a specific offence with appropriate punishment. I have received communication on that issue, as other right hon. and hon. Members will have, and although this measure will be of little comfort to those who have already lost family members in tragic circumstances—we have heard some very brave people speaking in the media about this—it will, I hope, prevent more deaths and injuries on our roads in the future.

Likewise, I welcome the much-needed groceries code adjudicator Bill. It will be warmly welcomed by farmers and other suppliers in my part of the world—not necessarily in my constituency, because at last count only three farmers were living within its boundaries, but in Northern Ireland, which is largely a rural area, it will be warmly welcomed.

Industrial Action

Sammy Wilson Excerpts

Wednesday 30th November 2011 Commons Chamber

[Mr Maude]

It is entirely correct that a large amount of taxpayers’ money is effectively used to pay for full and part-time union officials. There can be perfectly good justification for some of that, in order to sort out local disputes quickly and effectively, but that there should now be 260 full-time union officials on the civil service payroll is really hard to justify, and we are reviewing it.

[Sammy Wilson (East Antrim) (DUP)]

I regret the trade union action while negotiations are going on, and the Northern Ireland economy can ill afford the cost of this. Will the Minister confirm that the offer on the table is not a final offer and that, in ongoing negotiations, he will consider the impact on low-paid part-time workers and the appropriateness of raising the pension age for people who are engaged in physical activity, such as firemen?

[Mr Maude]

We absolutely take those points on board. I, too, regret the additional disruption that there is today in Northern Ireland, where the whole public transport system has come to a halt. As the hon. Gentleman says, the Northern Ireland economy can ill afford that kind of disruption. There is a great deal of flexibility within the negotiations. There are a lot of moving parts and they will be put together in different combinations in different schemes. We are very much aware of concerns of the sort that he raises.