Proposed Prison: Port Talbot

Sam Gyimah Excerpts

Tuesday 12th September 2017 Westminster Hall

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Justice (Mr Sam Gyimah)]

To give some context, we are investing £1.3 billion to create an additional 10,000 “new for old” prison places with better education facilities and other rehabilitative services to help prisoners turn their lives around. In Wales, as has been mentioned, in February we opened HMP Berwyn to provide 2,000 uncrowded and efficient prison places. We have also begun work on building a new houseblock at HMP Stocken, re-roled HMP Durham and HMP Holme House, announced our plans to redevelop HMP Glen Parva and former HMP Wellingborough, and announced a programme of four further builds, which includes Port Talbot in south Wales.

The prisons being built in Wales are therefore part of a much broader context, which is about improving our prison estate throughout the entire country. As well as creating modern prisons that are fit for the 21st century, the proposed new builds will act as a boost to regional economies across the country. They will create up to 2,000 jobs in the construction and manufacturing industries, and new opportunities for local businesses.

[Liz Saville Roberts]

The figures show that last Friday the prison population stood at 86,235, which is up 1,268 on September last year. Alongside building new prisons, surely this Government should be prioritising a reduction in the prison population per se.

[Mr Gyimah]

Of course. We would all like the prison population not to be as high as it is, but punishment must fit the crime, and if people commit offences, they should be sentenced to prison. Of the two best ways to reduce the prison population, the first is to cut reoffending so that the one in two people who leave our prisons and reoffend are stopped from doing so, which means that we need modern, purpose-built prisons that can deliver education and employment training. Secondly, we must stop the conveyor belt from low-level crime to custody, which means reforming our probation services. We are working on those things in the Department.

[Liz Saville Roberts]

I am grateful to the Minister for mentioning the probation service. I understand that a review of probation is ongoing, in particular the transformation of rehabilitation, but I have not had the opportunity to ask whether there is a date for it to be published.

[Mr Gyimah]

The probation service review is ongoing. As the hon. Lady may know, the results of the first part were published in a written ministerial statement just before the summer recess, outlining the additional investment that has gone into the probation companies. We will be publishing the next set of results as and when they are ready. I cannot give her a firm date, but it will be shortly.

The substance of the debate is the Port Talbot location of the proposed prison, as discussed by the hon. Member for Aberavon (Stephen Kinnock). When assessing where to build new prisons, the Ministry of Justice worked closely with the Welsh Government to identify suitable sites for a new prison build in Wales. We undertook a comprehensive evaluation of more than 20 sites in south Wales, ensuring that various factors were taken into consideration, such as preference for sites located along the M4 corridor because of their accessibility and the travel time benefits they would bring.

After careful consideration, Port Talbot was selected as the best potential site for a new category C prison build in Wales. That was for a number of reasons, including the capacity of local infrastructure to support the prison and the potential to maximise the benefits of investment in the local community. In addition, the site is owned by the Welsh Government, who are supportive of our work to progress these plans. As I mentioned, supply and demand for prison places are misaligned. For example, we do not have enough category C prison places in south Wales; the proposed prison at Port Talbot would address that shortfall.

[Stephen Kinnock]

The Minister began to explain the infrastructure decision and why the Baglan site was considered to have better infrastructure than the Felindre site, but he did not give any more detail. As I said, junction 46 gives far easier access than junction 41, so why was Felindre considered to have poorer infrastructure than Baglan?

[Mr Gyimah]

Infrastructure is not just motorway access but the local infrastructure of the area. For a category C prison, which would effectively be a resettlement prison, ease of access to employment is important, so that prisoners can be released on temporary licence and come back easily. It is also important that local people can work in the prison without having to commute long distances, not to mention ease of access for prisoners’ families to visit them. All those things are taken into account when we look at local infrastructure.

[Imran Hussain (Bradford East) (Lab)]

Will the Minister give way?

[Mr Graham Brady (in the Chair)]

Order. I should make it clear that the rules of procedure do not allow for Opposition spokespeople to participate in half-hour debates—they are exactly the same as the rules that apply to Adjournment debates in the main Chamber.

[Mr Gyimah]

Thank you, Mr Brady—as ever, you are hot on procedure.

A modern prison at Port Talbot will support the rehabilitative culture that is essential to making communities safer. A fit-for-purpose establishment will ensure that families can visit inmates in a relaxed atmosphere, which is particularly important for children. We will ensure, as far as possible, that local labour is sought from Port Talbot and the surrounding area and that local businesses benefit. As a guide, in the design and build of HMP Berwyn, around £83 million was spent with small and medium-sized enterprises in addition to the £38.2 million that was spent on local businesses. The construction of HMP Berwyn provided jobs for unemployed people, apprenticeships and more than 2,000 days of educational work experience for local young people.

Based on the success of HMP Berwyn, where we estimate that up to 1,000 jobs will be created, the new prison at Port Talbot could generate up to 500 jobs and contribute £11 million a year to the regional economy. Some 66% of HMP Berwyn’s staff came from the local area.

[Stephen Kinnock]

We are talking about job creation and enterprise. What does the Minister advise me to say to local businesses in the Baglan area that have already said that they will shut up shop if the prison goes ahead, which would mean the loss of hundreds of local jobs?

[Mr Gyimah]

The hon. Gentleman passionately represents the views of his constituents. As he is aware, there is a statutory consultation process. We have extended the time available for that consultation, which will give us the opportunity to listen to the concerns of residents and respond appropriately. When a change of this scale is proposed, it is not unusual to get the kind of reaction that he has received. The onus is on the Ministry of Justice to explain to local residents what is happening and what the benefits are, and we will do that as we go through this process.

I know that the hon. Gentleman would like me to personally engage in this process, but the Prisons Minister does not have expertise in taking residents through a consultation—no MP does. However, experts in the Department have been through this process in other parts of the country, including Berwyn, and they will take his constituents through their understandable concerns.

[Stephen Kinnock]

The Minister is being generous with his time. We have invited him to a public meeting in Port Talbot on 20 September, but he has said he is unable to attend. Can he confirm that someone from his team can attend that meeting?

[Mr Gyimah]

There will definitely be officials from the Ministry of Justice there. I want us to go through this process, as we do with every other prison in the country. The Minister cannot just start popping around the country running consultations for all the new prisons we are building, but the hon. Gentleman has exchanged letters with me all summer and my door is always open for him to come and represent the views of his constituents, as he has done by raising the issues here. I promise that I will take everything he raises on board. Contrary to what he said about having to winkle out answers from the Department, he has used all the formal channels available to a Member of Parliament, and I dare say that he has received a response every time he has made an inquiry about this prison.

We are obviously focused on infrastructure and the benefits for the community. We are working with the Department for Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy and the Infrastructure and Projects Authority to develop innovation in the construction and delivery of new prison buildings. That is in line with the UK industrial strategy and will create new job sectors in the industry.

We have touched on stakeholder engagement, which is important. As I said, we are engaging with the Welsh Government and Members of Parliament, and with Neath Port Talbot County Borough Council to develop its plans for the Port Talbot site. We are pleased to have had the support of the leader of the council, Councillor Rob Jones, and the Welsh Government throughout the process.

[Liz Saville Roberts]

What consideration has the Minister’s Department given to technical advice note 15 and the fact that the site is on a C1 floodplain?

[Mr Gyimah]

All those issues will be flushed out during the consultation process. It is not in the Department’s interest to build a prison on a floodplain if that is a serious technical constraint. We should leave that to the experts to decide; I am not an expert and neither is the hon. Lady. The consultation and all the analysis will have to run their course, as they would in the build of any prison.

We value the contributions of local stakeholders in helping to shape the site’s development. As I have said, we will have two days of public engagement. The first event will focus on the statutory planning processes and will be a key avenue for residents to make representations about our proposals and for the Ministry to help residents to understand our plans for the site. In addition, the statutory process requires a 28-day public consultation prior to the planning application being submitted, after which the development proposals will be subject to the standard 13-week planning process. We have not even got to the planning application stage yet; there will be many opportunities for residents to contribute, to help shape the proposals and raise objections to the process.

I know that the hon. Member for Aberavon, who is an assiduous constituency MP, will hold his own public engagement event on 20 September. I welcome the interest in his plans, and I will speak to my officials to ensure that he gets the support that he needs for that event. I appreciate that some in the community are concerned about the creation of a prison at Port Talbot. We will work with the community as the project progresses, using the lessons we learned from the prison we built at Berwyn, to mitigate those concerns. We will continue to work with the Welsh Government, who remain committed to the project on the Port Talbot site, and we will work closely with them when developing the planning event to address the local community’s key concerns.

Although it is too early to give an estimate of the cost of designing and building the new prison, we will ensure best value for money for taxpayers. Funding arrangements for health and police services were mentioned; we will engage with relevant public sector partners to ensure that they are able to develop suitable plans for the new prison.

I congratulate the hon. Member for Dwyfor Meirionnydd (Liz Saville Roberts) on securing the debate, and the hon. Member for Aberavon on bringing up important issues that need to be aired with projects of this kind. I certainly do not see that as a nuisance; we need to go through this process and listen to residents. I hope that as we do, the work that is already under way to make our prisons true places of reform and rehabilitation will become apparent and show what this site can deliver for both prisoners and the wider community.

Question put and agreed to.