Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Ruth Cadbury and Jesse Norman

Thursday 26th October 2023 Commons Chamber

[Jesse Norman]

Of course, I have visited the technology that my hon. Friend is describing and seen it in action. We must balance the safety of patients and vulnerable road users with the potential benefits of this new technology, but I am very pleased to confirm that the Department will be funding research to advance our understanding of the impacts of this technology. The results will be published once the research has concluded.

[Ruth Cadbury (Brentford and Isleworth) (Lab)]

Heavy goods vehicles cause a disproportionate number of cycling deaths. To cut the number of deaths of cyclists by illegal freight operators in other places, will the Department look at the successful London scheme and encourage partnerships between local authorities, the Driving and Vehicle Standards Agency and police forces to address this problem?

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Ruth Cadbury and Jesse Norman

Thursday 13th July 2023 Commons Chamber

[Ruth Cadbury (Brentford and Isleworth) (Lab)]

4. What steps he has taken to improve infrastructure for cycling and walking.

[The Minister of State, Department for Transport (Jesse Norman)]

The Government, as the House will be aware, are investing more than any other in active travel, with more than £3 billion in investment over this Parliament, which enables the delivery of high-quality schemes across the country. Active Travel England is helping local authorities to deliver the greatest possible value for money in that investment by ensuring that relevant schemes comply with the guidance. It is also ensuring that any active travel schemes funded by the Department are of the highest quality.

[Ruth Cadbury]

In 2022, the Minister’s Department said:

“Increasing walking and cycling can make life easier and more convenient for people, whilst helping to tackle some of the most challenging issues we face as a society—improving health and wellbeing, improving air quality, combatting climate change and tackling congestion on our roads.”

His Department’s data confirms all that, including the role that low-traffic neighbourhoods play in all this. Now the Secretary of State has boasted that he has stopped funding for future LTNs as part of the two-thirds cut in active travel, which the local authorities do not have the money to build back up, due to the cuts they have had. Why are the Government pandering to the Twitter warriors and not the data and those in their own party who support investment in active travel?

[Jesse Norman]

I find that surprising, if I may say so, because this Government are not only investing, but seeking to reduce any possibility of conflict between drivers of cars and cyclists. I do not think the hon. Lady should disagree with policies that are designed to reduce that conflict. What we want to see is more choice for people in how they travel. Inevitably, many and increasing numbers of people want to use active travel, because of all its health and environmental advantages.

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Ruth Cadbury and Jesse Norman

Thursday 8th June 2023 Commons Chamber

[Jesse Norman]

The Government are committed to ensuring that roads are safe for drivers. I have no doubt that the roads Minister would be absolutely delighted to visit my hon. Friend in his constituency, and to talk to those community groups and other interested parties about this important issue.

[Ruth Cadbury (Brentford and Isleworth) (Lab)]

Since 2010, the rate of road deaths has plateaued. Is the Minister proud of that record, and when will he finally publish the long-awaited road safety strategic framework?

[Jesse Norman]

As the hon. Lady knows, when I was roads Minister, we did a lot of work on safety reviews for walking and cycling. I do not think anyone who looks at the statistics, which of course are not controlled by Government or any single force, will be proud of where they are. One reason why I am excited about the potential for new automated, driver-assistive and other technologies is that in principle, they have the capacity to reduce the number of fatalities and injuries very significantly. That is something we should all welcome.

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Ruth Cadbury and Jesse Norman

Tuesday 7th September 2021 Commons Chamber

[Mr Speaker]

I call the Minister.

[The Financial Secretary to the Treasury (Jesse Norman)]

Good morning to you, Mr Speaker. It is great to be in a Chamber that is 100% full strength after so many months. If I may make a personal note without undue deference, Mr Speaker, I will say that I thoroughly appreciated your remarks about standards within the Chamber.

To date, Her Majesty’s Revenue and Customs has not initiated insolvency proceedings against any taxpayer for a loan charge debt. No estimate can be provided for the number of people who have fallen into debt or who have been declared bankrupt and are subject to the loan charge because, where debts arise, HMRC is not always the only creditor. Some individuals are declared bankrupt as a result of a non-HMRC debt and some may choose to enter insolvency themselves based on their overall financial position.

[Ruth Cadbury]

We know that there are many, many thousands of nurses, social workers and other public sector workers who have been caught up in the loan charge. They took work via agencies that basically told them, “Sign here or you don’t get the work.” Checking to see whether they would be liable for the loan charge was not an option. Last week, the Yorkshire Post reported that a number of former services personnel had been affected and that one is feeling suicidal as a direct result. What does the Minister say to this veteran and the thousands of other public servants whose lives have been turned upside down by this retrospective taxation?

[Jesse Norman]

I thank the hon. Lady for her question. Taxation is often a difficult matter for the relatively small number of individuals who may be affected by particular pressures. Of course the Government recognise and understand that, but it is nevertheless the case—it is indeed a foundational principle of the tax system—that people should be responsible for their own tax returns. If I may, I would like to refer the hon. Lady to the very wise words of the former shadow Chancellor, the hon. Member for Oxford East (Anneliese Dodds), who said in 2018 that

“we would obviously welcome tightening in the area of disguised remuneration schemes…We are concerned that the measures in the Bill do not go far enough…There should be no excuse”—

these are her words—

“for people not to be aware of the situation”.––[Official Report, Finance (No. 2) Public Bill Committee, 9 January 2018; c. 30.]

I am afraid that she was right about that.

Finance (No. 2) Bill

Debate between Ruth Cadbury and Jesse Norman

Committee stage & Committee of the Whole House (Day 2)
Tuesday 20th April 2021 Commons Chamber

[Jesse Norman]

I have been held to account by my right hon. Friend and I am grateful to him for that, because that power—if I have any power—should always be held to account. Let me put the record straight: my hon. Friend the Member for Thirsk and Malton is an estate agent, and yet with that estate agency genius he combines the forensic skills of an accountant in holding to account, indirectly, members of the Government and, directly, the Opposition. I thank him for that.

My hon. Friend the Member for Thirsk and Malton pointed out that these disguised remuneration schemes are highly contrived. It is terribly important to remind ourselves of that. It is all very well to complain about the loan charge, but these are highly contrived schemes. My hon. Friend reminded us—as, indeed, did my right hon. Friend the Member for Sutton Coldfield (Mr Mitchell) —of the general rule that all taxpayers are responsible for their own tax, and that if, by implication, a scheme looks too good to be true, it almost certainly is too good to be true. Those are important messages and no Government should wish to weaken that important principle that people are responsible for their own tax.

[Ruth Cadbury]

I understand what the Minister has said. Of course, most of us are aware of our own tax bands. But how can the Minister expect basic rate taxpayers—a nurse, an IT contractor, somebody working in the film industry, even somebody on minimum wage—to do due diligence when nothing they read or have been sent ever mentions loans, and when they are given a convincing narrative that their tax is being paid for and they do not need to worry? Should not HMRC and the Treasury be addressing this issue, because it is a growing part of the employment market?

[Jesse Norman]

HMRC is addressing these issues. That is why this Bill has so many measures in it that are focused on the disclosure of tax avoidance schemes, toughening up that regime and improving the regime against the promoters of tax avoidance. But let me say to the hon. Lady that I thought her remark was dripping with condescension towards the ordinary taxpayers of this country. The fact of the matter is that people, from whatever walk of life, are perfectly competent—they do not need to be patronised by Labour Members of Parliament—at working out when something looks too good to be true. That is why so many—such a high percentage; well over 90% of people—do manage to work out what is too good to be true and behave on that basis. To suspect otherwise, when HMRC is absolutely working as hard as it can to make sure that the truth is out there and well understood, and is closing down opportunities for misleading advertising, in a recent initiative with the Advertising Standards Authority and a whole host of other things, is completely wrong.

I am grateful to my hon. Friend the Member for Burnley (Antony Higginbotham) for what I thought was a very robust and thoughtful contribution. He is absolutely right to highlight that HMRC has not been slow in this area. He was right to pick up the point about VAT on online platforms, but, of course, that is merely the tip of the iceberg. The hon. Member for Ealing North (James Murray) somehow suggested that we were failing to tackle this issue. The tax gap, as he pointed out, is 4.7%—a historic low. Let me remind the House and him of some of the actions that the Government have taken—leadership on base erosion and profit shifting over many years, the diverted profits tax, the corporate interest restriction, the tax charge on offshore receipts, hybrid mismatch rules, our new digital services tax.

Finance Bill

Debate between Ruth Cadbury and Jesse Norman

Report stage & Report stage: House of Commons & Report: 1st sitting & Report: 1st sitting: House of Commons
Wednesday 1st July 2020 Commons Chamber

[Jesse Norman]

I take my hat off to the astonishing hon. Member for Bradford South (Judith Cummins), who brought so much content into such a short presentation, and I thank her for that. We have an enormous body of material to get through quickly, so I shall deal initially with the question relating to new clause 26 on job creation and related measures. The new clause would require the Government to conduct an assessment of the effect of the Act on job creation. As the House will know, the Government have announced unprecedented support through the coronavirus job retention scheme, the self-employed scheme and the like. The Office for Budget Responsibility has said that those actions will directly help to support the incomes of individuals. The Treasury does not produce economic forecasts and the OBR does, publishing them twice a year. For that reason, I ask Members to reject the new clause.

New clause 12 relates to a matter previously considered in the Public Bill Committee, the impact on regions and nations. The new clause would require the Chancellor, within one month, to review the impact of the Act. As I emphasised in Committee, the provisions in this Bill have already been developed with careful consideration. Analysis of Government decisions on GDP is also carried out by the independent OBR. Again, we will continue to monitor the impact of the crisis, but I ask Members to reject the new clause. SNP new clause 18 would require a review of the impact of the Act on investment, productivity and employment. Again, it would require the Government to look at hypothetical scenarios, whereas the OBR is required by law to produce its forecasts based on stated Government policy, so I ask Members to reject the measure.

I come now to IR35 and the off-payroll working rules. I have been pressed vigorously on this issue by my hon. Friends the Members for Milton Keynes North (Ben Everitt), for Guildford (Angela Richardson), for Workington (Mark Jenkinson) and for Barrow and Furness (Simon Fell). Amendments 16 and 17 seek to remove the reform of these rules from the Bill, which would be a serious mistake, costing the country many hundreds of millions of pounds. The level of non-compliance at the moment with the rules is scheduled to cost the country £1.3 billion in 2023-24 if not addressed. As I do not believe the SNP really wants that, I encourage Members to vote against it.

I come now to the cross-party amendments framed by my right hon. Friend the Member for Haltemprice and Howden (Mr Davis), as it is important to engage with several of the things he said. He said that contractors could be pushed into a state of no benefits employment. It is important to note the contractors already receive a number of benefits funded by the Government when they are employees of their own personal service companies. Such benefits include statutory maternity, paternity, adoption, parental bereavement and shared parental pay, and they are provided by PSCs, which are then able to claim 100% of those payments plus 3% compensation from the Government. My right hon. Friend said that at least seven people have taken their own lives as a result of the loan charge. It is important to put on the public record that of course every single death of an individual is a tragedy. The circumstances surrounding those deaths have been considered by the coroner, the Independent Office for Police Conduct and HMRC’s own internal independent investigations. None of them has suggested, in these four reports, that HMRC is to blame for these deaths; no conduct issues have identified either by the independent office or internal investigations that would warrant disciplinary actions.

[Ruth Cadbury]

Will the Minister give way?

[Jesse Norman]

I am afraid that I just have to press on, because I have no time. My right hon. Friend raised the issue of a review on the loan charge. These are some of the most egregious and clearest forms of tax avoidance in the tax system. In reaction to my right hon. Friend the Member for Gainsborough (Sir Edward Leigh), let me say that it is hard to see how simplification of the tax system would prevent the kind of abuse we have seen through the loan charge or indeed potentially through IR35. The all-party group on the loan charge published a report rubbishing the independence of the Morse review. I can do no better than refer its members to the remarks made by my right hon. Friend the Member for Haltemprice and Howden, who described Sir Amyas Morse as

“principled and highly respected”

That was true then and it is true now.

New clause 31 would drive a coach and horses through long-standing principles of taxation, because the tax system relies on people being responsible for their own tax and there being as little discretion as possible in the system. Both principles would be overturned, as my hon. Friend the Member for Wimbledon (Stephen Hammond) hinted. For that reason, I urge the House to reject the new clause, if it comes to a vote.

Question put, That the clause be read a Second time.

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Ruth Cadbury and Jesse Norman

Tuesday 24th March 2020 Commons Chamber

[Ruth Cadbury (Brentford and Isleworth) (Lab)]

T2. I acknowledge that the Government are dealing with an incredible number of challenges at this time and pay tribute on behalf of all MPs to the work that has been done by Ministers, by those on the Front Benches and by the people behind the scenes who are supporting them in this work. The financial challenges of families with children have not yet been specifically addressed, so will the Treasury listen to the Child Poverty Action Group and work with the Department for Work and Pensions on a fairly simple solution that will put money directly into the pockets of families with children, which is temporarily to increase child benefit?

[The Financial Secretary to the Treasury (Jesse Norman)]

I am very grateful to the hon. Lady for the suggestion, and we will certainly look closely at the Child Poverty Action Group’s recommendation.

Loan Charge 2019: Sir Amyas Morse Review

Debate between Ruth Cadbury and Jesse Norman

Thursday 19th March 2020 Commons Chamber

[Jesse Norman]

I am very grateful to the hon. Gentleman, but if I may say so, I do not think that has been true. I think the conclusion colleagues have been pushing in this debate is that they disapprove thoroughly of tax avoidance, and their view is that this is not tax avoidance in many cases. If they accept that this is tax avoidance and that the issue is merely as to the remedy, that is of course a slightly different position, and one that I am happy to respond to.

I just want to make it clear that this is a form of tax avoidance. It goes to the wider issue as to whether people should have known what it was. The point is that it is tax avoidance, and it costs the Exchequer hundreds of millions of pounds a year. That has two effects: it deprives public services of the money they need to operate; and it forces other taxpayers to pay more to make up the shortfall.

The purpose of the loan charge was to combat this form of abusive tax avoidance. The loan charge was introduced as a new measure in 2017. Following a public campaign last year, we asked Sir Amyas Morse, as has been noted, to conduct a review of whether it was an appropriate policy response to the use of the disguised remuneration scheme. He had full control of the review’s management and recommendations. He took evidence from a very wide range of individuals affected, and he spoke to interest groups, MPs, tax specialists and many other stakeholders.

Again, the facts are not in doubt. Sir Amyas Morse, as has been recognised by colleagues today, is an individual of huge experience and great independence of mind, and he is widely respected across the House. He was independent in his review, and he was given wide scope in expert support. He produced a thorough and exacting piece of work—a 76-page, 30,000-word report—that drew on over 700 individual testimonies and impact statements, and which painstakingly worked through the issues before recommending notable changes to the policy, including substantial carve-outs as to who was affected. Sir Amyas was clinical and at times unsparing in his criticisms, including of Her Majesty’s Revenue and Customs and, be it said, of the Loan Charge Action Group. All but one of these recommendations were accepted by the Government.

Among those recommendations were two to which I want to draw the House’s particular attention. The first is Sir Amyas’s insistence, as we have heard across the House today, on the need for the Government to go further in going after and bringing to justice people who enable or promote tax avoidance schemes. I am therefore delighted that, as part of the Budget documentation we have produced today, we have published a policy document on “Tackling promoters of mass-marketed tax avoidance schemes”, and I draw the attention of all colleagues to it. It is a sober and thorough piece of work that looks at lots of different approaches as part of an integrated strategy.

The other thing that Sir Amyas pointed to—again, I think rightly, but also picking up on a widely anticipated and understood gap—is the importance of raising standards in the tax advice market. Again, I am pleased to say that, as part of the Budget documentation, we have published a call for evidence on this very topic, “Raising standards in the tax advice market”. I encourage all colleagues and their constituents to contribute to that approach.

[Ruth Cadbury]

I thank the right hon. Member for the points he is making about advice and information. However, I again come back to the fact that the low-paid and the averagely-paid—generally public sector workers—are still being sold these schemes. They cannot be paid through a personal services company, but they need to work freelance and locum, and this is still happening to them. If the Government see these schemes as contrived, why are they not doing more to stop the mass marketing of them, such as by making the promoters personally liable for defeated schemes and similar?

[Jesse Norman]

I have in my hand a detailed document designed to address this very issue. It goes through a whole range of different approaches and integrates them into a strategy. I would be delighted to have any input that she would like to make about other ways in which that can be improved and developed. We work on the basis of the law as it presently stands, and which we have inherited. It is itself the result of previous Parliaments, including of course the parliamentary consideration of the loan charge. We have to work with the hand we have got, and improve it as fast and as comprehensively as we can.

I will now address the motion directly and then, in the limited time I have, turn to the comments that have been made. Is the loan charge retrospective? Again, I think it is clear that it is not. It was introduced as a new measure in 2017. It taxes a loan outstanding at a future date. It does not change any law previously on the statute book.

It has been asked why the loan charge was introduced. In the words of Sir Amyas Morse, it

“offers an expedited means of collecting tax that is due”.

Is the loan charge unjust? Again, I would suggest not. If one asks the average man or woman in this country, I think they would say, “Everyone should pay their fair share of taxes. People are responsible for their own tax affairs. Real loans get repaid; if someone offered you a loan for which no repayment, no tax and no interest was due, it would probably be too good to be true.” And so it is.

The numbers seem to bear that out. More than 99.8% of the tax-paying population have never used a scheme. Even among the freelance population, the take-up has been only 2.5%. It is notable that Sir Amyas Morse was clear that he supported the essential purpose of the loan charge and that it should remain in force.

We have heard a lot about how the law was not settled in 2017. Again, as I said, I can do no better than refer colleagues to section A of the Morse review, which carefully reconstructs the history of the past 20 years of disguised remuneration.

Let me quickly turn to the many excellent contributions that have been made. I will start with the excellent contribution made as a point of order by my right hon. Friend the Member for New Forest West (Sir Desmond Swayne), who pointed out the excellence of my book on Adam Smith—I thank him for that, although I defer to the hon. Member for Kirkcaldy and Cowdenbeath (Neale Hanvey), as Kirkcaldy was, of course, Smith’s home town. My right hon. Friend the Member for New Forest West will recall—he taught economics so he must know about these things—that Smith not only set out the ideals of a well-functioning tax system, which we all aspire to achieve, but was, for the last 12 years of his life, a practising commissioner of customs, attempting to wrestle with an ever-evolving customs market and seeking to extract duty and tax due, and rightly so.

I would like to touch on the statesmanlike comments of the hon. Member for Bootle, the shadow Chief Secretary, which perhaps reflected his imminent expectation of taking my seat on this side of the aisle. He recognised that what people do not pay in tax due, someone else must. He is right about that. He noticed that if it looks too good to be true, it probably is. He is right to focus, as others have, on the enablers and promoters.

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Ruth Cadbury and Jesse Norman

Tuesday 11th February 2020 Commons Chamber

[Jesse Norman]

HMRC did pursue these cases quite vigorously. Sir Amyas found, on the basis of detailed consideration, that the law was clear then, and therefore HMRC rightly believed that people would accommodate it. Of course, it pursued people who had been avoiding tax through disguised renumeration schemes for many years before that, and it will continue to do so for those that have been carved out by the loan charge review.

[Ruth Cadbury (Brentford and Isleworth) (Lab)]

The Treasury has accepted some of Sir Amyas Morse’s recommendations, but there is confusion about some of them. A constituent of mine got caught in a disguised renumeration scheme before 2010, and yet he is still not convinced that he is in the clear and has that fear hanging over him. What does the Financial Secretary have to say about that?

[Jesse Norman]

The hon. Lady is quite wrong. We accepted all but one of Sir Amyas’s recommendations, and we did not accept that one because the issue he raised was already being handled very well within the system. If the hon. Lady has a specific concern, she is very welcome to raise it with tax commissioners or, indeed, with me, although on an anonymised basis because obviously I cannot deal with specifics.