Finance Bill

Rushanara Ali Excerpts

Tuesday 1st July 2014 Commons Chamber

[Mr Redwood]

The main reason they pay more tax, of course, is that they generate and declare more income here, which is surely what we want them to do. If the Labour party is with me so far in wanting decent public services, and if it is with me in accepting that the money for those services has to come from the better-off, because by definition we do not want to tax the poor, then surely it is with me in wanting to have more rich people here to venture, save, put their money at risk and to make more money with their money so that there is more of it to tax. This country is now very dependent on income tax from the top group of earners, who produce 30% of income tax, and on the capital gains tax, stamp duty and other taxes that apply mainly to rich people with big assets. That is sustaining public services. It is very important that Members of this House, who might not like those people—clearly the Labour party dislikes them intensely—recognise that they are very useful members of society and that their revenue is crucial to being able to redistribute money across the country. If Labour Members wish to have more equality, they must think about the optimising rate. Surely it is best to try to find the rate that maximises revenue, rather than a penal rate that satisfies people’s sense of jealousy—or whatever it is—about those who have or make a lot of money.

[Rushanara Ali (Bethnal Green and Bow) (Lab)]

The right hon. Gentleman is wrong about the Labour party disliking rich people intensely and should retract that statement. If he is not prepared to do so, perhaps he will explain why many people feel that his party dislikes ordinary families and poor families intensely, as highlighted by their policies.

[Mr Redwood]

That is simply not true. I am delighted to hear that the hon. Lady likes rich people—there are quite a few in her party, so let us hope she gets on well with them—but it is absolutely false to suggest that Conservatives have no interest in people who are out of tax altogether or who are on low incomes; we are desperately concerned that they should get better educational standards and have more opportunities so that they can get a job and then go on to get a better job. We wish them well, and we are very keen to work with all those in our constituencies so that they can take advantage of opportunities. We would like them to be on higher incomes. In the meantime, unlike the Government she supported, we have taken many more of those people out of tax altogether, because we think that those on an income of less than £10,000 a year should not have to pay tax. They will probably be receiving some benefit assistance.

Another point that the hon. Member for Birmingham, Ladywood did not respond to was the fact that the latest figures show that inequality rose under the Labour Government but has actually fallen a bit under the coalition, mainly because we have taken an awful lot of people at the lower end of the income scale out of tax. We have a very progressive system: the income tax system now exempts anybody on less than £10,000 and has a 47% rate, if we take national insurance as well on the highest incomes; and the benefit system rightly gives a lot of money to people at the low end of the scale and should not give any money to people at the top end.

--- Later in debate ---

[Mr Redwood]

I do not think that the economic circumstances were as different as the hon. Gentleman thinks. In the early ’80s the Conservative Government inherited an economic crisis from Labour, just as this Government did. There was a lot of unemployment and a big task in getting people back to work and getting the economy growing again, rather like today. The Government at the time managed to do that, just as this Government are, so I do not accept his point.

However, I find the fact that Labour is going backwards on these issues rather perturbing. Why can the modern Labour party not understand the basic points that the Labour party that was victorious between 1997 and 2010 understood fully? Why can it not understand that it is possible to take the tax rate too high and get less revenue? The Treasury has now accepted the doctrine of the Laffer curve and understands that putting the tax rate above the optimising rate would surely be a very foolish thing to do. It knows that that applies to capital gains tax, as it clearly does to income tax. I submit that 50% was well above the optimum rate, because we collected rather less revenue than many people would have liked. I welcome the fact that the Government have started to put that right.

I do not think that we need the study that the Labour party is recommending today, and I advise it to think again about what it learnt in the ’80s and ’90s but appears now to have forgotten. It shows that the former Labour Chancellor was clearly not crowd-pleasing when he refused to increase the rate from 40%—he was clearly antagonising many of his Back-Bench colleagues by not doing so—so there must have been a good reason for it. I think that reason was a sensible one: it would have raised less revenue, rather than more. I urge the Government to reject new clause 14.

[Rushanara Ali]

It is worth considering some of the context of our debate today on the Finance Bill. Almost 15 years ago, the then Labour Government introduced the national minimum wage. That historic measure increased the value of work for around 2 million people across the UK. At its heart was fairness and dignity for all at work. Yet today we are debating the impact of a substantial tax cut for 13,000 millionaires introduced by this Government. At a time when more than four out of five people surveyed in a recent Ipsos MORI poll said that they faced a cost of living crisis, the contrast cannot be overstated. It would be almost impossible to find so clear a contrast between the ambitions and motivations of two Governments. The bottom line in this debate is that the Government’s proposals in the Finance Bill do almost nothing to address the cost of living crisis.

[David Wright]

My hon. Friend mentioned Ipsos MORI. If we look at public attitude surveys, we see that one of the reasons why there is a breakdown of trust in politics is the very approach that she is discussing. People on low incomes—indeed, those on middle incomes—are facing a cost of living crisis, while the wealthiest are getting a tax cut. That is why people switch off from politics; they see the double standards being pursued by the Government.

[Rushanara Ali]

I could not agree more. I heard the speech of the right hon. Member for Wokingham (Mr Redwood), but it is clear that there are major divisions in our society. We should all be concerned about that. Tax breaks are given to those who do not need them—to millionaires; responsible millionaires will admit that the stance being adopted is divisive. We should protect those who are struggling the most as well as ordinary middle-income families in this cost of living crisis. I hope that the Government will take on board some of the points made about the social consequences of the tax inequalities that the Government are introducing and making worse.

Let us take my constituency of Bethnal Green and Bow as an example. Families there are significantly worse off than they have ever been. Child poverty is at 42% and there is still high unemployment. There are still major problems of worklessness and young people who are not in training or education. That is a major problem around the country: 870,000 young people remain unemployed.

Changes in taxes and benefits made since 2010 make one-parent families working to support children an average of £3,720 a year poorer. That staggering fall in living standards will affect the most vulnerable. The issue is not envy, but the fact that my constituents are struggling. They will rightly continue to ask why millionaires in the City are receiving a tax cut from the Government of about £100,000 a year. My constituents are working hard to make ends meet and their children are living in poverty. While they continue the battle to survive, they ask why the Chancellor is giving £3 billion a year in tax breaks to millionaires. How is that fair? How are we all in this together if that is the Government’s priority?

[Jonathan Edwards]

Given what the hon. Lady is saying, would she support a 50% rate on earnings above £100,000?

[Rushanara Ali]

I am here to debate the new clause. I am focused on what the Government are doing. I support the new clause because it is not fair that £3 billion a year should be going to millionaires. On top of that, as my hon. Friend the Member for Birmingham, Ladywood (Shabana Mahmood) mentioned, bonuses in the financial sector are up by 83%. My constituents are living between the City of London and Canary Wharf; they see the inequities and want a fair chance. They are not complaining about people earning a decent living, but they want the Government to be fair in how they tax.

[Mark Field (Cities of London and Westminster) (Con)]

The hon. Lady represents a seat next door to mine. We both have significant numbers of constituents living, as she would put it, in poverty—although poverty levels today are very different from those certainly in the first half of the last century and before—and significant numbers who are relatively well off. Does she not recognise that by reducing tax rates we are bringing more money into the Exchequer? She says that the issue is not about the politics of envy, but does she not recognise that higher rates of tax would bring less into the Exchequer to pay for the very services that our more poverty-stricken constituents so desperately need? She is undermining the very case she tries to make.

[Rushanara Ali]

I have great respect for the hon. Gentleman, but I do not agree. My hon. Friend the Member for Birmingham, Ladywood set out the facts in her speech, so I will not reiterate them; others want to speak. The hon. Gentleman will know about the disparities all too well. The Government have a responsibility to make sure that the tax system is fair, and fairness is at the heart of a progressive tax system admired by people in other countries. The changes that the Government have introduced—prioritising tax breaks for those who least need them while ordinary families continue to struggle—are deeply disturbing and unfair.

[Mr Iain McKenzie (Inverclyde) (Lab)]

We are hearing people say, “Tax them less and they will pay more.” Why does that not work all the way down the tax scales? We are seeing middle-income families being sucked into higher tax brackets to pay for the lifting of the less well paid out of tax altogether.

[Rushanara Ali]

The Government have made a great deal of their efforts to support middle-income families, but frankly their words have been empty. They have prioritised those at the top. Will the Minister say whether his Government will rule out reducing tax further for high earners to 40%? I give him the opportunity to say so now. The revenue that the Government are forgoing could be used to support others—to get young people back to work, for instance.

[Mark Field]

rose—

[Rushanara Ali]

I will not give way again as I am conscious that others wish to speak. I will conclude.

The Government’s so-called long-term plan should not be pursued at the expense of those in lower and middle-income families. That is why the new clause would rightly force the Chancellor to publish how much extra tax would be paid by high earners under the 50p rate. That would establish how much those earning more than £1 million per year would contribute. That would go a long way towards giving us the clarity we need.

Our vision is to work towards cutting taxes for the 24 million people on middle and lower incomes through the introduction of a 10p starting rate of tax. That is not only the way to a fairer system of taxation but the only way to nurture sustainable growth for all. After three years of flatlining, the growth that we are beginning to see is welcome, although it is still coming much slower than it is to countries such as the US and Germany.

Opposition Members have a vision for a broad-based recovery forged through the efforts of all people from all backgrounds. We must remember that average wages will have fallen by 5.6% by the end of this Parliament. How does that make our society one in which we are all in it together? I do not hear members of the Government or Government Back Benchers use that phrase any more. I challenge them to use it today if they still believe that it is not a joke as far as most people in this country are concerned. Only Labour’s plans for a fairer and more progressive taxation system will support the return of wages to a level seen before 2010.

In conclusion, I return to the basic premise of Labour’s argument. It is simply not acceptable or fair for millions of people to pay more in tax while millionaires pay less. Since 2010, tax rises and cuts to benefit have left average households worse off. Real-terms decreases in wages across this Parliament have made the financial plight of ordinary people across the UK tougher. People have become dependent on food banks as they have never been and there is rising homelessness in cities such as London. There is rising poverty—child poverty in particular—not only in my constituency, but up and down the country, but this Government still find the energy and will to reward the top 1% of earners while everyone else suffers.

The Government have pandered to the worst suggestions of their critics, namely that they are out of touch, have failed to spread any meaningful recovery to those who desperately need it and are out for the few and not for the many. For those reasons I support Labour’s proposals on the tax cut and support the new clause.

[Ian Swales (Redcar) (LD)]

It is a pleasure to follow the hon. Member for Bethnal Green and Bow (Rushanara Ali). I agree that we should be aiming for a tax system that is as fair as possible and accept that the timing of the top rate cut was not good for public relations or for feelings throughout the country. But let us examine the genesis of this situation.

In 2010, 6 April was an important day. It was the day that the top rate of tax was raised from 40p to 50p. It was also the day that Parliament was dissolved—the very last day that Labour Members sat on the Government Benches. They were sat on these Benches for one day with the top rate of tax at 50p. Clearly, as the right hon. Member for Wokingham (Mr Redwood) said, the rate was raised in the full knowledge that Labour was likely to lose the general election. It was the then Chancellor’s leaving present, which he knew would keep leading to headlines and would be the gift that kept on giving. Listening to the speeches made by Opposition Members today one would imagine that there had been a 50p tax rate throughout their time in government, and not simply on the last day on which they sat on the Government Benches.