Defence Supplementary Estimate 2021-22

Baroness Winterton of Doncaster Excerpts

Wednesday 9th March 2022 Commons Chamber

[Bob Stewart]

I thank my right hon. Friend—who is a good friend and is gallant, because he was a midshipman once—for allowing me to intervene. One thing that the Russians are showing is that to take territory, people have to put boots on it. But, guess what? We are chucking our boots out. That is appalling and we must reverse that decision.

[Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Rosie Winterton)]

Order. Before the right hon. Member for New Forest East (Dr Lewis) comes back, I think it is important to let hon. Members know that I will have to impose a time limit when he has finished, otherwise we will simply not get everybody in. The time limit will probably be around six minutes, depending on how long he takes.

[Sir Robert Syms]

rose—

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[Sir Robert Syms (Poole) (Con)]

It is quite clear that since we ran down our defence establishment following the cold war, events have proved that we need to spend a lot more on defence. One thing about the cold war was that it froze a lot of conflicts in the world, because it involved the two great powers. Since we ran down our defence spending in the 1990s, we have been committed for years and years to several conflicts, firing in some and peacekeeping in others, so there has been a tremendous strain on the military budget over a long period.

The strength and value of our defence establishment is in the leadership, training, tradition and morale of its people. Our services have quite often been deployed with kit that is older or is not that good, but because of the quality of those men and women, they have been able to fulfil their task. What is coming out clearly from this debate is that we need more boots in the military, because that gives us a lot of options.

One thing we know is that while Ukraine has a defence establishment of about 200,000, it has 400,000 veterans in the Donbas, it has militia and volunteers and there are probably several hundred thousand people with Kalashnikovs running around, which is why the Russians are having a terrible problem. Being armed with modern anti-tank and anti-aircraft missiles adds a little bit of edge to that.

I think we need to revisit the integrated defence review, and I think we will need to spend more on defence. If Members disagree with that, they should talk to their constituents, because I think most of our constituents realise that this is one area in which we have to get it right. We need only look at a country where, in blocks of flats, schools and hospitals, children are being killed to realise that our own first duty as a country is to defend our realm—within NATO, but we must also have the ability to do this ourselves, because ultimately it is our responsibility to protect our fellow citizens.

This is, I think, a wake-up call for us, and I am sure that the Government will listen to what people are saying. The only question is whether we end up at 3% quickly or slowly, because I think that that will be the direction of travel. We need new kit, but it is it is clear that unless we increase the defence budget, we will not retain the personnel and secure the equipment that we need to remain a substantial military power. There are items in the review that we were going to do without for a while, such as AWACS—the airborne warning and control system—and I think that that is very short-sighted.

Let me say to the Minister that I think the Ministry of Defence will receive substantial support, from some Opposition Members and certainly from many Conservative Back Benchers, for a review of where we are now and where we are going to go. History does repeat itself. Sometimes we think it will not because no one will be stupid enough to do what people have done before, but we need only look at the Soviet-Finnish war of 1939-40 to see many parallels with what is taking place now.

This country has much to be proud of in its support for Ukraine. I would not particularly like us to be fighting tanks at the moment, because I suspect that we are rather short of anti-tank missiles—I hope the Minister is ordering new ones just in case—but the simple truth is that we need air power, we need more power in the form of ships to support our aircraft carriers, and we need more of our Army personnel.

As I said to my hon. Friend the Member for Plymouth, Moor View (Johnny Mercer), people have been training the Ukrainians for seven years, and some 22,000 have now been trained. I am sure they are putting that training to very good use at the moment in fighting for their survival. The British Army, even when it is not fighting, can help our friends by using its skills and abilities to ensure that the military in other countries gain the benefit of our experience. Of course, we have been at the other end of wars, driving along roads when people have shot at us, and we have learned many lessons over the years that we can impart to our friends.

I also think—my right hon. Friend the Member for New Forest East (Dr Lewis) understands this—that we should take on the lessons about psychological ops, propaganda and putting one’s own side of the story. Communicating with people is very important, and the Ukrainians, whatever their military skills, have the support of the world because they were quick to do that. The Russians may be just a Soviet tribute act, but they are behaving in exactly the way the Soviets would have behaved, spreading disinformation and not being honest with people. I have been amazed at the bravery of ordinary Russian citizens who, although they do not get the full truth from their media, have been willing to demonstrate and to be arrested and beaten. I wonder how I would behave if, living in Moscow or St Petersburg, I opposed an invasion. Would I be brave enough, or would my family be brave enough, to demonstrate in the same way? People show courage in tremendously different ways. You can be brave on the battlefield, but not quite so brave when you think you are going to be beaten over the head by a policeman or chucked into jail.

I think that the direction of travel in defence has to be more resources. We have to look at the integrated defence review. There will be a great deal of support from Conservative Members for moving from 2%—however the figures were added up—towards 3% or more. As a rich nation we can afford to do that, and I think we would be foolish not to do it, because at the end of the day everything else is trivial if people are in the situation that the Ukrainians are in.

[Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Rosie Winterton)]

I want to start the wind-ups at 6.30 pm, and I have four speakers left. That means that I will have to reduce the time limit to five minutes per speaker.

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[Mr Fysh]

The right hon. Gentleman makes an important point, but it is also important that that happens in a timely fashion. A capable machine is proposed to be made in my constituency. Leonardo’s AW149 is not only the best helicopter for the military purpose, but the best in terms of delivering jobs and delivering on that strategic asset that we have in the UK, through Leonardo’s facilities in Yeovil, for end-to-end helicopter production. It is also the only candidate for that requirement, which will deliver exports and jobs into the future. We do need to get that done as soon as possible and to support our people with the best possible equipment.

[Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Rosie Winterton)]

I call the SNP spokesperson.

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[Mr Francois]

On a point of order, Madam Deputy Speaker. There are breaking media reports of a Russian artillery strike on a maternity hospital in Mariupol, which unfortunately has resulted in a large number of casualties. I understand that the Prime Minister has condemned this as depraved. Bearing in mind the subject that we are debating, if anything that has only focused our minds. This is a tragedy that should be condemned by the whole House.

[Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Rosie Winterton)]

I thank the right hon. Gentleman for his point of order. As I am sure he realises, it is not a matter for the Chair, but he has put his point on the record.

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The Deputy Speaker then put the Questions on the outstanding Estimates (Standing Order No. 55).

[Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Rosie Winterton)]

With the leave of the House, I will put the Questions on motions 3 to 6 together.

Supplementary Estimates 2021-22 (Navy) Vote A

Resolved,

That, during the year ending with 31 March 2022, modifications in the maximum numbers in the Reserve Naval and Marine Forces set out in Supplementary Votes A 2021-22, HC 981, be authorised for the purposes of Parts 1, 3, 4 and 5 of the Reserve Forces Act 1996.

Estimates 2022-23 (Navy) Vote A

Resolved,

That, during the year ending with 31 March 2023, a number not exceeding 39,550 all ranks be maintained for Naval and Marine Service and that numbers in the Reserve Naval and Marines Forces be authorised for the purposes of Parts 1, 3, 4, and 5 of the Reserve Forces Act 1996 up to the maximum numbers set out in Votes A 2022-23, HC 980.

Estimates 2022-23 (Army) Vote A

Resolved,

That, during the year ending with 31 March 2023, a number not exceeding 109,670 all ranks be maintained for Army Service and that numbers in the Reserve Land Forces be authorised for the purposes of Parts 1, 3, 4 and 5 of the Reserve Forces Act 1996 up to the maximum numbers set out in Votes A 2022-23, HC 980.

Estimates 2022-23 (Air) Vote A

Resolved,

That, during the year ending with 31 March 2023, a number not exceeding 36,500 all ranks be maintained for Air Force Service and that numbers in the Reserve Air Forces be authorised for the purposes of Parts 1, 3, 4 and 5 of the Reserve Forces Act 1996 up to the maximum numbers set out in Votes A 2022-23, HC 980.—(Gareth Johnson.)

Estimates, Excesses 2020-21

[Relevant documents: Fortieth Report of the Committee of Public Accounts, Excess votes 2020-21: Serious Fraud Office, HC 1099.]

Resolved,

That, for the year ending with 31 March 2021:

resources, not exceeding £144,494,000, be authorised to make good excesses for use for current purposes as set out in Statements of Excesses 2020-21, HC 1006 and HC 1154.—(Gareth Johnson.)

Supplementary Estimates 2021-22

Resolved,

That, for the year ending with 31 March 2022:

(1) further resources, not exceeding £307,383,532,000, be authorised for use for current purposes as set out in HC 1005, HC 1120, HC 1135 and HC 1152,

(2) further resources, not exceeding £6,407,284,000 be authorised for use for capital purposes as so set out, and

(3) a further sum, not exceeding £21,485,755,000, be granted to Her Majesty to be issued by the Treasury out of the Consolidated Fund and applied for expenditure on the use of resources authorised by Parliament.—(Gareth Johnson.)

Estimates, Vote on Account 2022-23

Resolved,

That, for the year ending with 31 March 2023:

(1) resources, not exceeding £351,632,860,000, be authorised, on account, for use for current purposes as set out in HC 1004, HC 1119, HC 1126, HC 1134, HC 1153, HC 1155 and HC 1159,

(2) resources, not exceeding £58,924,316,000, be authorised, on account, for use for capital purposes as so set out, and

(3) a sum, not exceeding £361,722,188,000, be granted to Her Majesty to be issued by the Treasury out of the Consolidated Fund, on account, and applied for expenditure on the use of resources authorised by Parliament.—(Gareth Johnson.)

Ordered, That a Bill be brought in upon the foregoing Resolutions relating to Estimates, 2020-21, 2021-22 and 2022-23;

That the Chairman of Ways and Means, the Chancellor of the Exchequer, Mr Simon Clarke, Lucy Frazer, John Glen and Helen Whately bring in the Bill.

Supply and Appropriation (Anticipation and Adjustments) Bill

Presentation and First Reading

Lucy Frazer accordingly presented a Bill to authorise the use of resources for the years ending with 31 March 2021, 31 March 2022 and 31 March 2023; to authorise the issue of sums out of the Consolidated Fund for those years; and to appropriate the supply authorised by this Act for the years ending with 31 March 2021 and 31 March 2022.

Bill read the First time; to be read a Second time tomorrow, and to be printed (Bill 279).