Northern Ireland Troubles (Legacy and Reconciliation) Bill

Baroness Winterton of Doncaster Excerpts

2nd reading
Tuesday 24th May 2022 Commons Chamber

[Several hon. Members rose—]

[Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Rosie Winterton)]

Before I call the shadow Secretary of State, let me say that I am sure that colleagues will be aware that there are many people who wish to speak in the debate on this extremely important Bill. In order to avoid a time limit, I encourage Back-Bench colleagues to keep their remarks to about 10 minutes.

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[Claire Hanna (Belfast South) (SDLP)]

rose—

[Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Rosie Winterton)]

I call Jim Shannon.

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[Gavin Robinson]

It is important for the House to recognise that sometimes politicians talk about how powerfully these things affect us, but it is fair to say that from my hon. Friend’s contributions throughout the years he has brought a great deal of personal empathy and emotion to these issues. I make that intervention, and I will talk perhaps longer than you would normally permit in an intervention, Madam Deputy Speaker, and I will look for a nod from my hon. Friend whenever the time is appropriate—

[Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Rosie Winterton)]

Order. If the hon. Member for Strangford (Jim Shannon) would like me to come back to him after the hon. Member for Belfast South (Claire Hanna), I am happy to do that if at any point that is what he feels.

Northern Ireland Troubles (Legacy and Reconciliation) Bill

Baroness Winterton of Doncaster Excerpts

Committee stage
Wednesday 29th June 2022 Commons Chamber

Question proposed, That the clause stand part of the Bill.

[The First Deputy Chairman of Ways and Means (Dame Rosie Winterton)]

With this it will be convenient to discuss the following:

Amendment 73, in clause 2, page 3, line 11, leave out “one, two or”.

This amendment would require the ICRIR to comprise three other Commissioners, in addition to the Chief Commissioner and the Commissioner for Investigations. It is linked to an amendment to leave out paragraph 6 of Schedule 1.

Amendment 75, page 3, line 22, after “Troubles” insert

“sexual offences linked to conduct forming part of the Troubles”.

Amendment 74, page 3, line 25, at end insert—

“(4A) At least one Commissioner should have significant international experience or expertise.”

This amendment would include in the ICRIR’s functions referring Troubles-related sexual offences to prosecutors.

Amendment 76, page 3, line 41, at end insert

“and to the Northern Ireland Assembly and each House of Parliament”.

This amendment would require the ICRIR to provide a copy of its annual reports to Parliament and the Northern Ireland Assembly.

Clause 2 stand part.

Amendment 91, in schedule 1, page 48, line 34, leave out paragraph 6.

This amendment would require the ICRIR to comprise three other Commissioners, in addition to the Chief Commissioner and the Commissioner for Investigations. It is linked to an amendment to Clause 2(3).

Amendment 113, page 48, line 37, at end insert—

‘(1A) The Secretary of State must convene the appointments panel before appointing the Commissioners.

(1B) In this Schedule “appointments panel” means—

(a) the Attorney General for Northern Ireland,

(b) a member of the Commission for Victims and Survivors for Northern Ireland,

(c) the person who is the head of the Northern Ireland Civil Service, and

(d) a person with experience of managing major criminal investigations, appointed to the panel by the Northern Ireland Justice Minister.

(1C) The appointments panel must make a recommendation in relation to the appointment of a Commissioner.

(1D) Any such recommendation must be made with the agreement of all the members of the appointments panel.

(1E) The Secretary of State must act in accordance with the recommendation of the appointments panel in appointing a person to be a Commissioner.’

This amendment would require the Secretary of State to gain the approval of an appointments panel before appointing a commissioner.

Amendment 92, page 49, line 8, at end insert—

‘(4A) The term of office of a person appointed as a Commissioner under paragraph 7(1) must not begin before—

(a) the person has, in connection with the appointment, appeared before the relevant select committee of the House of Commons, and

(b) the House of Commons has approved the appointment by resolution no earlier than 10 sitting days after the person appeared before the relevant select committee of the House of Commons.

(4B) Sub-paragraph (4A) does not apply if the person is appointed as a Commissioner on an acting basis, pending a further appointment being made.

(4C) The reference to the relevant select committee of the House of Commons—

(a) includes the Northern Ireland Affairs Committee and the Justice Committee,

(b) if the name of a Committee is changed, is a reference to that Committee by its new name, and

(c) if the functions of those Committees (or substantially corresponding functions) become functions of a different Committee or Committees of the House of Commons, is to be treated as a reference to the Committee or Committees by which the functions are exercisable.

(4D) Any question arising under sub-paragraph (4C) is to be determined by the Speaker of the House of Commons.’

This amendment would require the appointment of Commissioners to be subject to parliamentary scrutiny and approval.

That schedule 1 be the First schedule to the Bill.

Clause 3 stand part.

Amendment 77, in clause 4, page 4, line 19, after “would” insert “reasonably”.

Amendment 78, page 4, line 21, after “would” insert “reasonably”.

Amendment 79, page 4, line 23, after “would” insert “reasonably”.

Clause 4 stand part.

Amendment 80, in clause 5, page 4, line 35, leave out “reasonably”.

This amendment would remove a limitation on the material which the Commissioner of Investigations may require a relevant authority to make available to the ICRIR.

Amendment 81, page 4, line 38, leave out “may” and insert “must”.

Amendment 82, page 5, line 1, leave out “, in the view of that authority, may” and insert “are”.

Clauses 5 and 6 stand part.

That schedule 2 be the Second schedule to the Bill.

Clauses 7 and 8 stand part.

Amendment 83, in clause 9, page 7, line 43, leave out from “subsection (1)” to end of line 44.

This amendment would remove the condition of appropriateness for another family member to make a request for a review where there are no close family members of the deceased.

Clause 9 stand part.

That schedule 3 be the Third schedule to the Bill.

Clause 10 stand part.

Amendment 84, in clause 11, page 9, line 35, at end insert—

‘(3A) A request for a review may be re-submitted to accord with the form or manner required by the Commissioner for Investigations.’

Clauses 11 and 12 stand part.

Amendment 111, in clause 13, page 11, line 10, at end insert—

‘(3A) The Commissioner for Investigations must ensure that each review—

(a) has access to all information, documents and other material held by Government Agencies that may be reasonably required for the exercise of the review,

(b) establishes whether any forensic opportunities exist to identify those responsible for a potential Troubles-related offence,

(c) identifies and engages any potential witnesses, members of the security forces or other persons who may be able to assist in identifying who is responsible for the Troubles-related offence,

(d) is conducted with integrity and objectivity, conforming to nationally recognised standards,

(e) does not overlook any investigative opportunities, and

(f) identifies and shares investigative and organisational best practice.’

This amendment would ensure that any review conducted by the ICRIR is carried out in line with the standards for Operation Kenova, the investigation into activities linked to an alleged British Army agent, known as Stakeknife.

Amendment 112, page 11, line 15, at end insert—

‘(4A) When exercising the powers conferred by subsection (4), the Commissioner for Investigations must ensure that each review is carried out in a timely manner.’

See explanatory statement for Amendment 111.

Clauses 13 and 14 stand part.

Amendment 95, in schedule 4, page 62, line 39, leave out “£1,000” and insert “£5,000”.

This amendment would increase the penalty for failure to comply with a notice under section 14 requiring the supply of information to the Commissioner for Investigations.

That schedule 4 be the Fourth schedule to the Bill.

Clauses 15 to 17 stand part.

Amendment 96, in clause 18, page 16, line 10, leave out “A to C” and insert “A to D”.

This is a paving amendment for Amendment 98.

Amendment 97, page 16, line 30, at end insert—

‘(6) If Condition C is not met because P’s account is found by the panel to be not true to the best of P’s knowledge and belief, the Chief Commissioner must direct the Commissioner for Investigations to submit a prosecution file to the Public Prosecution Service for consideration and direction.’

This amendment is intended to reduce the risk of claimants deliberately misleading the panel.

Amendment 98, page 16, line 30, at end insert—

‘(6A) Condition D: P has not fled the jurisdiction of any court in the United Kingdom [or Ireland] after being arrested or charged or being the subject of a warrant issued in connection with any Troubles-related offence.’

This amendment is intended to prevent the grant of immunity to any person subject to active proceedings who has moved abroad to escape prosecution.

Amendment 99, page 16, line 31, leave out “A to C” and insert “A to D”.

This amendment is consequential on Amendment 98.

Amendment 85, page 16, line 37, after “offences” insert “excluding rape and other serious sexual offences”.

This amendment would exclude rape and other serious sexual offences from immunity from prosecution.

Amendment 100, page 16, line 38, leave out subsections (9) to (12).

This probing amendment is one of a series removing general immunity from the Bill.

Amendment 115, page 17, line 7, at end insert—

‘(12A) But certain offences of sexual violence listed in Schedule (Exempt offences) must not be treated as within the scope of immunity from prosecution.’

This amendment is linked to NS1.

Amendment 101, page 17, leave out lines 13 and 14.

This probing amendment is one of a series removing general immunity from the Bill.

Amendment 102, page 17, leave out lines 21 and 22.

This probing amendment is one of a series removing general immunity from the Bill.

Amendment 119, page 17, line 24, at end insert—

‘(16A) Nothing in this Act confers any immunity from prosecution (after immunity has been granted to P) if P commits an offence under section 1 (encouragement of terrorism) of the Terrorism Act 2006 or section (Offence of glorifying terrorism: Northern Ireland) of this Act.’

Clauses 18 and 19 stand part.

Amendment 86, in clause 20, page 19, line 1, leave out subsection (4).

This amendment is intended to remove the possibility of immunity being granted solely on the basis of a perpetrator’s claims made with no corroboration.

Amendment 105, page 19, leave out lines 23 and 24.

This probing amendment is one a series removing general immunity from the Bill.

Amendment 106, page 19, leave out lines 26 and 27.

This probing amendment is one a series removing general immunity from the Bill.

Clause 20 stand part.

Amendment 87, in clause 21, page 19, line 41, at end insert—

‘(2A) The same panel membership must hear the whole of an immunity request.’

Amendment 88, page 20, line 3, at end insert—

‘(3A) Where a panel has been reconstituted in accordance with subsection (3), the reconstituted panel must hear the whole immunity request afresh.’

Clauses 21 and 22 stand part.

Amendment 89, in clause 23, page 21, line 6, leave out “reasonable”.

Amendment 90, page 21, line 16, leave out paragraphs (4) and (5).

Clauses 23 to 25 stand part.

That schedule 5 be the Fifth schedule to the Bill.

That schedule 6 be the Sixth schedule to the Bill.

Clauses 26 and 27 stand part.

That schedule 7 be the Seventh schedule to the Bill.

Clauses 28 to 32 stand part.

New schedule 1—Exempt Offences—

‘1 The following offences are not to be treated as within the scope of immunity from prosecution (see section 18 (12A)).

2 An offence under any provision of the Sexual Offences Act 1956.

3 An offence under section 1 of the Indecency with Children Act 1960 (indecent conduct towards child under 14).

4 An offence under section 54 of the Criminal Law Act 1977 (inciting child under 16 to commit incest).

5 An offence under section 1 of the Protection of Children Act 1978 (indecent photographs of children).

6 An offence under section 160 of the Criminal Justice Act 1988 (possession of indecent photograph of a child).

7 An offence under any provision of the Sexual Offences Act 2003.

8 An offence under section 63 of the Criminal Justice and Immigration Act 2008 (possession of extreme pornographic images).

9 An offence under section 62 of the Coroners and Justice Act 2009 (possession of prohibited images of children).

10 An offence under section 33 of the Criminal Justice and Courts Act 2015 (disclosing private sexual photographs and films with intent to cause distress).

11 An offence under section 2 of the Modern Slavery Act 2015 (human trafficking) committed with a view to exploitation that consists of or includes behaviour within section 3(3) of that Act (sexual exploitation).

12 An offence at common law of outraging public decency.

13 A reference in paragraphs 2 to 14 to an offence (“offence A”) includes—

(a) a reference to an attempt to commit offence A,

(b) a reference to a conspiracy to commit offence A,

(c) a reference to incitement to commit offence A,

(d) a reference to an offence under Part 2 of the Serious Crime Act 2007 in relation to which offence A is the offence (or one of the offences) which the person intended or believed would be committed, and

(e) a reference to aiding and abetting, counselling or procuring the commission of offence A.’

This new schedule would exclude sexual offences from being granted immunity, and is linked to Amendment 115.

[The Minister of State, Northern Ireland Office (Conor Burns)]

It is a humbling experience to come before the Committee to deal with the first of the two days in Committee of the Northern Ireland Troubles (Legacy and Reconciliation) Bill.

On Monday evening, I attended an event at Queen’s University Belfast hosted by the vice-chancellor Professor Ian Greer, where we heard video messages from President Clinton, Sir Tony Blair and my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister, and we heard speeches from me and the former Taoiseach Bertie Ahern. We gathered to pay tribute to my right hon. and noble Friend Lord Trimble, to thank him for his career of service in Northern Ireland and to thank his wife Daphne for her support of him over all those years. In my remarks, I said that we thanked him for his courage to compromise, his conviction to lead and his audacity to dream. I reflected on how much Northern Ireland has changed over the years since the Belfast/Good Friday agreement, of which he was such a key part.

The measure before the Committee is an attempt to try to continue the process of moving Northern Ireland on. I begin by genuinely and humbly saying that these measures are difficult, are a compromise and are contested. I pay tribute to my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State, who has had the courage to grapple with this issue when many others in the years since the Belfast/Good Friday agreement simply decided that it was too difficult.

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[Gavin Robinson]

On a point of order, Dame Rosie. For the sake of clarity and for the benefit of all Members, may I ask you to confirm that there will be a Report stage? I have listened to these exchanges, but given the timescale that we have for the Bill’s remaining stages on Monday—given that the second day of the Committee stage will end an hour before the moment of interruption—and given the likelihood of many Divisions, I expect that there will not even be time for a substantive Third Reading, let alone a Report stage.

Just in case people fall into the view that there will be enough time for a Report stage and the opportunity to table further amendments, I must express my view that that will not be the case on Monday. But I ask you, Dame Rosie, for clarification.

[The First Deputy Chairman of Ways and Means (Dame Rosie Winterton)]

Report stage is currently scheduled for Monday. As I understand it, amendments would need to be tabled at the close of Committee stage on Monday, as manuscript amendments. I hope that is helpful.

[Gavin Robinson]

Further to that point of order, Dame Rosie. In principle there can be a Report stage, but in practice, if the Committee stage runs until an hour before the end of proceedings and there are Divisions—four, potentially—there will be no time whatever for a Report stage or a Third Reading. We cannot predict what will happen with Divisions, but I am asking for confirmation that a set of circumstances could arise whereby no effective Report stage would occur.

[The First Deputy Chairman]

Obviously it is difficult to predict what would happen on the day. In such circumstances, Members can all agree that they wish to allow enough time for Report stage by means of shorter speeches or fewer votes. On the other hand, I understand that it is also possible for the business managers and the Government to table a Business of the House motion that could perhaps give specific protected time to a Report stage, but that would be a decision for the Government. Again, I hope that that is helpful.

[Simon Hoare]

Further to that point of order, Dame Rosie.

[The First Deputy Chairman]

I am slightly anxious that we will use the whole debate for points of order, but I will take this one from the hon. Gentleman.

[Simon Hoare]

It was my understanding, Dame Rosie, that the usual channels could alter the programme motion, but could you also confirm that when we reached the stage of what we normally describe as ping-pong, were such an amendment to be passed in the other place, we would debate it here in the context of the Government’s response to the amendment? That would also afford an opportunity for this place to accept an amendment from their lordships that the Government might still be trying to resist, although I doubt that they would. Is that not still open to us as Members of the House of Commons?

[The First Deputy Chairman]

This is something that I suggest would lead to ping-pong, as the hon. Gentleman calls it, but, again, the scheduling is not a matter for the Chair; it is a matter for the business managers and the Government.

I have a feeling that the Minister has heard all the points that have been made, and I think we should probably return to the debate.

[Conor Burns]

I am conscious that I have taken a significant number of interventions so far this afternoon, so, if I may, I will make some progress and talk briefly about the actual content of the Bill—

Northern Ireland Troubles (Legacy and Reconciliation) Bill

Baroness Winterton of Doncaster Excerpts

Committee stage
Monday 4th July 2022 Commons Chamber

[Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Rosie Winterton)]

Government manuscript new clause 1 and Government manuscript amendments 1 to 4 have been selected. They replace amendment 115 and new schedule 1, relating to sexual offences, which were agreed in Committee on Wednesday last week.

Manuscript New Clause 1

No immunity from prosecution for sexual offences

‘(1) This section applies if under section 18—

(a) a person (P) has requested the ICRIR to grant P immunity from prosecution,

(b) conditions A to C are met, and

(c) some or all of the identified possible offences are Troubles-related sexual offences.

(2) If all of the identified possible offences are Troubles-related sexual offences, the ICRIR must not grant P immunity from prosecution.

(3) Accordingly, section 18(1) and (7) to (16) do not apply.

(4) If some of the identified possible offences are Troubles-related sexual offences—

(a) the immunity requests panel must not decide under section 18(7) that P should be granted immunity from prosecution for—

(i) any identified possible offence that is a Troubles-related sexual offence, or

(ii) a description of offences that includes any Troubles-related sexual offence; and

(b) the ICRIR must not grant P immunity from prosecution for any Troubles-related sexual offences.

(5) Accordingly, section 18(7) to (13) have effect subject to subsection (4).

(6) In this section “Troubles-related sexual offence” means any Troubles-related offence that is—

(a) a sexual offence, or

(b) an inchoate offence relating to a sexual offence.

(7) For the purposes of this section “sexual offence” includes—

(a) rape;

(b) any offence committed by—

(i) sexual assault,

(ii) sexual activity, or

(iii) causing or inciting another person to engage in sexual activity;

(c) any offence relating to indecent images of children.

(8) For the purposes of this section “inchoate offence relating to a sexual

offence” includes an offence of—

(a) attempting to commit a sexual offence;

(b) conspiracy to commit a sexual offence;

(c) incitement to commit a sexual offence;

(d) aiding, abetting, counselling or procuring the commission of a sexual offence.

(9) The Secretary of State may, by regulations, make provision about the meaning of—

(a) “sexual offence”, or

(b) “inchoate offence relating to a sexual offence”;

for the purposes of this section (including provision specifying offences which are to comprise, or to be included in, that definition).

(10) Regulations under subsection (9) are subject to negative procedure.’—(Conor Burns.)

This new clause provides that immunity from prosecution cannot be granted for sexual offences. It replaces the amendments made on day 1 of Committee of the Whole House by amendment 115 and New Schedule 1.

Brought up, read the First and Second time, and added to the Bill.

Clause 2

The Independent Commission for Reconciliation and Information Recovery

Manuscript amendment made: 1, page 3, line 20, after “offences” insert

“other than Troubles-related sexual offences”.—(Conor Burns.)

This amendment reflects the exclusion of Troubles-related sexual offences from the immunity provisions by New Clause 1.

Clause 18

Immunity from prosecution

Manuscript amendments made: 2, page 17, line 7, at end leave out subsection (12A).

This amendment leaves out subsection (12A) inserted on the first day of Committee of the Whole House by amendment 115. It is replaced by New Clause 1.

Manuscript amendment 3, page 17, line 24, at end insert—

“( ) This section is subject to section (No immunity from prosecution for sexual offences).”—(Conor Burns.)

This amendment provides that clause 18 has effect subject to New Clause 1 (which provides that immunity from prosecution cannot be granted for sexual offences).

Schedule 4A

Exempt Offences

Manuscript amendment made: 4, page 66, line 26, leave out Schedule 4A.—(Conor Burns.)

This amendment leaves out the Schedule inserted on day 1 of Committee of the Whole House by New Schedule 1. It is replaced by New Clause 1.

Third Reading

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[Peter Kyle]

I echo the Secretary of State’s comments in congratulating everybody who has taken part in our debates and thanking them for their commitment to all stages of this Bill. We have had vigorous and sometimes difficult conversations, and we have heard some heartfelt explanations of how these issues have touched so many people’s lives.

However, the grinding reality is that, following Second Reading and the hours in Committee, the Bill still has no support from any Northern Ireland party, and it still has no support from any victims group in Northern Ireland. The Northern Ireland Human Rights Commission, a statutory body established as part of the Good Friday agreement, says the Bill is still unlikely to be compliant with human rights law. How can Ministers bring forward a Bill that fails stakeholders so comprehensively?

The Opposition have been responsible in trying hard to propose workable solutions. I hope Ministers will acknowledge that even when, last Wednesday, the Government could not carry the Committee of the whole House on a key amendment, we acted responsibly and worked constructively to try to solve that challenge with the workable manuscript amendments that are now part of the Bill.

Even though we have done our best to improve the Bill, we cannot agree with it as it stands on Third Reading. Our concerns are simply fundamental. The amnesty that the Bill gives to those who committed crimes during the troubles is too easy to earn. Amnesty is set above investigations, and the investigations are downgraded to reviews. Most fundamentally of all, the Bill gives more rights to people who committed crime during the troubles than it does to their victims. For those reasons, we will be opposing it on Third Reading.

[Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Rosie Winterton)]

I call SNP spokesperson Richard Thomson.