Winter Fuel Payment

Roger Gale Excerpts

Wednesday 19th March 2025 Commons Chamber

[Helen Whately]

I do not want to fall into the same trap as the hon. Lady did when she made those accusations. What she has just said does not describe the position of the Leader of the Opposition. I also remind her that today is an opportunity for the Government to answer questions, and that is what she should be looking to the Minister, rather than the shadow Minister, to do.

[Sir Roger Gale (Herne Bay and Sandwich) (Con)]

I have always said that it is absolute nonsense that somebody like me, who is still working, and my wife, who is still working, should receive the winter fuel allowance. We were going to address that, which was right—so we should have done. If that is what is called means-testing, then I am perfectly happy with that. But what we were not going to do was to take money from the pockets of the poorest pensioners in the country, and that is what this Government have done.

[Helen Whately]

I could not have made the point better than my right hon. Friend.

I have one final question before I conclude: what was all this for? We clearly know who lost out and who suffered as a result of the cut to the winter fuel payment, but who benefited? To govern is to choose. All those who got inflation-busting pay increases after Labour did its deals with its trade union friends were the ones to benefit. Billions for the unions, but nothing for the pensioners. This will be the legacy of yet another Labour Government. The last one increased the state pension by just 75p a week; this one have taken away the winter fuel payment.

By contrast, it was the Conservatives who introduced and protected the triple lock, which saw the state pension increase by £3,700 during our time in office; it was the Conservatives who reduced the number of pensioners living in absolute poverty by 200,000—Labour will undo that by a quarter in its first year—and it was the Conservatives who delivered nearly £12 million in winter fuel payments and cost of living payments for pensioners, because we understand the need to help the most vulnerable through the winter. It is astonishing how many people Labour has already let down in just eight months—pensioners, farmers, business owners, young people looking for jobs, and, yesterday, disabled people—in its rush to fix its financial mess.

Earlier we heard the Prime Minister say that if a party has a big majority, it does not need to consult, so the onus is on all of us here. Colleagues, and especially Labour Members, have an opportunity today to make the Government listen. It is a chance to stick to our principles, stick up for our constituents and vote to see the truth.

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[Torsten Bell]

No. Apparently, means-testing the winter fuel payment is beyond the pale, but means-testing the state pension—the bedrock of pensioners’ incomes—is the future. The Leader of the Opposition’s self-image is of a bold iconoclast, but means-testing the state pension is not bold; it is bonkers. Never mind what the Conservatives say they would do now, what about what they actually did? Let’s talk about pensioner poverty.

[Sir Roger Gale]

Will the Minister give way?

[Torsten Bell]

I will not. Pensioner poverty halved under the last Labour Government, but the Conservatives’ record was higher pensioner poverty—an increase of 300,000 people on their watch. We are not pretending that all the problems facing the country can be solved overnight, but we are honest that unless we tackle the big challenges and take some tough choices, they will not be solved at all. This is a Government raising the state pension, rescuing the NHS and delivering for pensioners every single day.

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[Louise Jones]

We can carry on with our history lesson—[Interruption.] I am sorry, does the right hon. Member for Herne Bay and Sandwich (Sir Roger Gale) wish to intervene?

[Sir Roger Gale]

I intervene simply to inform the hon. Lady that it was David Cameron who introduced the triple lock.

[Louise Jones]

I believe it was then suspended, but I thank the right hon. Gentleman for his intervention. In his earlier remarks, he raised the valid point that no Member of this House should be receiving the winter fuel payment, and he spoke about the very poorest in this country facing that payment being taken away. We have protected the very poorest pensioners, but whenever there is a threshold, there will always be people who fall on the other side of it. I and my colleagues have been very aware of people coming to us who need us to help them find alternative sources of help.

--- Later in debate ---

[Josh Simons]

I thank the hon. Gentleman for his intervention. Conveniently, I shall be responding to exactly that point in a few minutes, but if he feels that I have not done so, he is welcome to intervene again.

Given that the state pension has risen by £900 and will rise again by as much as £1,900 over the course of this Parliament, the Government’s changes target the winter fuel payment on the basis of the principle of need. That is the right principle. I do not believe that taxpayers should foot the bill for pensioners with millions of pounds to receive winter fuel payments. It is true that some donate the money to charity, but many do not. According to the columnist Fraser Nelson:

“A millionaire I know has a tradition every year: he buys a bottle of vintage wine with his winter fuel payment and invites friends to drink it.”

Targeting the winter fuel payment is not just about the public finances; it anchors and preserves the policy in the right moral principle—the principle of need. It protects the winter fuel payment for those who need it most. Some object that although the principle of need is the right one, the changes set too low a threshold. That has not been my experience, and here I come to the point made by the hon. Member for Farnham and Bordon (Gregory Stafford). I represent more people of pensionable age than most Members, and many of them are struggling.

[Sir Roger Gale]

Will the hon. Gentleman give way?

[Josh Simons]

I will not give way at this point.

In towns such as Hindley Green and Hindley, Abram and Platt Bridge, Ashton and Orrell, pensioners who have worked all their lives are facing acute and sometimes painful challenges.

[Sir Roger Gale]

Will the hon. Gentleman give way?

[Josh Simons]

I will not, at this point.

[Madam Deputy Speaker (Judith Cummins)]

Order. May I remind Members that it is up to the Member on his feet to decide whether to take interventions?

[Sir Roger Gale]

The hon. Gentleman should show some respect to a pensioner!

[Josh Simons]

I do. I believe in laying out the argument, and once I have done so, in a couple of minutes, the right hon. Gentleman will be welcome to intervene. That, I think, is partly what the House is for.

After the announcement of this policy, I immediately entered into a partnership with Wigan Council to ensure that every pensioner I represent who is eligible for pension credit and help from the household support fund receives every single penny for which they are eligible. I made it clear to my constituents that I would not rest until my most vulnerable pensioners are protected. In recent months, Wigan council’s fantastic income maximisation team have secured almost £8 million in benefits that would not otherwise have been paid to Wiganers. I have invited the team to all the coffee mornings that I host with residents every month, and these alone have secured tens of thousands of pounds in benefits for the people I represent. I have encountered much the same story again and again. So many pensioners were convinced that they were not eligible for pension credit because they had never received a penny of benefit in their lives, and so many did not know about the household support fund, but it turned out that they were eligible. Opposition Members never wanted them to receive this benefit, but we have made sure that they get what they need and deserve.