Child Benefit

Roberta Blackman-Woods Excerpts

Tuesday 22nd May 2012 Westminster Hall

[Mr Gary Streeter (in the Chair)]

There is obviously a lot of interest in this important debate. I have the power to impose a time limit, but I will not do so from the outset—let us see how we get on. However, a little self-restraint by colleagues would be most appreciated.

[Roberta Blackman-Woods (City of Durham) (Lab)]

It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Streeter. I thank Gingerbread, the Child Poverty Action Group, the Institute of Chartered Accountants in England and Wales and the House of Commons Library for producing excellent briefings for today’s debate.

Eleanor Rathbone, the great advocate for family allowances, which we now know as child benefit, entered politics in 1909. It is extraordinary that, more than a century later, we have once again had to secure a debate in Parliament to champion the basic principles of child benefit. There have been threats to child benefit before, but since 1945 when family allowances legislation was introduced—a watered-down version of the child support that Eleanor Rathbone and others had campaigned for—only the coalition Government have introduced legislation for the demise of the principle of universality that underpins child benefit.

Not everyone on the Government side is happy with the proposed changes, as demonstrated by the lack, bar one or two, of any Back Benchers on the Government side who wish to take part in this debate. In an earlier debate, the hon. Member for Christchurch (Mr Chope) pointed out that the Government’s proposals ask those on higher incomes with families to contribute more, while those on higher incomes without children are not asked to contribute more. I do not see how that can be fair. I do not usually quote from the hon. Gentleman, especially in agreement, but he has hit the nail on the head.

I would like to concentrate on two issues: the destruction by the Government of the universal principle, and the unfairness and unworkability of the proposed changes. The principle long established and supported on a cross-party basis is that society as a whole should contribute towards the upbringing of children, because we all share in the benefits of a properly supported future generation. Arguing for family allowances, Eleanor Rathbone captured that exactly:

“Children are not simply a private luxury. They are an asset to the community”.

The logic of accepting that view is that in a properly functioning society transfers are made to families with children—not away from them to pay for tax cuts to millionaires.

Her Majesty’s Revenue and Customs recently put out a press statement on the proposed changes, which told us that the Government’s plans for changing child benefit are legal. I have been in the House for a number of years and I am not familiar with Government Departments telling us that policy changes are legal. I can only imagine that it must reflect a measure of concern about the Government’s incompetence that Departments have taken to doing so. My concern, however, is not about the legality of the proposed changes, but that they are wrong and should not happen.

The CPAG has summarised the benefits of child allowances. They achieve horizontal distribution between families, from those without children to those with children, life-cycle redistribution—most people have children at some point and we want to help whenever families are most pressed—and intergenerational redistribution, and they place a value on all children. For those reasons and many others, the benefit should be kept in its universal form. The changes are grossly unfair and probably unworkable.

The ICAEW has branded the legislation seriously flawed in principle and in practice. It points to many problems and I will highlight a few. HMRC will be using the tax system to claw back from one individual a benefit paid to the other, which could be extremely difficult as families in similar situations will be treated differently. Despite the introduction of the taper, the changes could still lead to a huge disincentive for individuals to earn more. The worst aspect of the proposed changes is that a family with a single earner who has an income of more than £60,000 is significantly worse off through the withdrawal of the benefit, while two-earner couples with incomes of up to £50,000 each will not lose the benefit.

[Barbara Keeley (Worsley and Eccles South) (Lab)]

My hon. Friend is making a great start to the debate. When meeting people in her constituency during the local elections, was my hon. Friend struck by how hard that unfair and unworkable aspect of the change is hitting them? One voter I met, who voted Conservative at the last election, said that he will never vote Conservative again because of the unfair nature of the changes. I spent a long time talking to him and he just could not believe that they were going to be introduced.

[Roberta Blackman-Woods]

My hon. Friend has made an excellent intervention. The unfairness of the changes goes to the heart of the debate. I suspect that as more and more people wake up to what will happen to their child benefit next January, we will see an even greater public outcry.

The changes disadvantage single parents, and partnerships where one person has decided to stay at home. With changed family circumstances, it may be very difficult to claw back payments or decide who should pay them. Taxpayers could be penalised for failing to submit information that they have no access to, particularly if the relationship breaks down. The extra administration involved could place huge burdens on HMRC at a time of budget restraint, and particularly at a time of cuts in staffing levels. We are therefore left with a number of questions.

[Kate Green (Stretford and Urmston) (Lab)]

Does my hon. Friend agree that one problem is that it will be very difficult for HMRC and families to manage this process, given that family circumstances may change in the course of a year? What a person may believe at the beginning of the year is their child benefit entitlement or their tax liability could turn out to be different, leading to problems such as lump sums having to be paid back and the amount of time required by HMRC for administration.

[Roberta Blackman-Woods]

My hon. Friend makes an excellent point. The workability of the proposals will have to be reconsidered. We seem to be building into the system a number of problems for families. The Government could have learned from previous practice and not gone down this road.

We are left with a number of questions about the workability of the changes and the need for them, as well as questions about fairness. As late as 2009, the Chancellor was promising not to scrap child benefit. No doubt we will hear today that it has not been scrapped, but changed massively. More significantly, it has already been cut massively because of the lack of uprating with inflation. Therefore, child benefit and families with children have already been targeted for cuts, even without the cuts that have been made to tax credits.

[Sheila Gilmore (Edinburgh East) (Lab)]

Will my hon. Friend reflect on the fact that, in the run-up to the Budget, there was debate about child benefit and the coming changes to working tax credit, which affect some of the lowest-paid working couples in our society? The Government found enough time and energy to make some amendments on child benefit, but none to the proposals on tax credit.

[Roberta Blackman-Woods]

My hon. Friend makes an excellent point. She is right. The overriding question is, why have the Government chosen to target cuts in respect of families, particularly those with children? None of us have received a satisfactory answer; perhaps the Minister will provide us with one.

The second question is, why are women being targeted again by this Government? It is not only families with children that are being targeted, but women—mostly women who are single parents—and it is more likely to be women who are put under pressure not to claim by their partners, so that their partner’s tax does not change. Whether or not that happens in reality, the Government should not even countenance the possibility. Women will suffer in terms of pension credits if they do not claim. This is a real mess and is just one more aspect of the omnishambles Budget that needs to be changed.

It took more than 70 years from Eleanor Rathbone’s entry into politics to get universal child benefit paid to the mother for all children. I hope that it does not take another 70 years for these appalling changes to child benefit to be reversed.

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[Kate Green]

My hon. Friend makes an important point. If women come under pressure to forgo child benefit, rather than their partner seeing an increase in their tax bill—I believe that that will happen in some families—they will lose the benefit of their national insurance credits. That will have a lifetime impact on those women and their pension entitlement. We cannot wish to pursue a policy that risks making women poorer throughout their life.

This benefit is directed towards children and has been designed to follow a child and stay with them even if their family circumstances change. That is particularly important if a relationship breaks down, because a woman may have no other source of income at that point. It may be an acrimonious dispute in which she is struggling to extract money from her former partner, and child benefit is often the only source of income on which she can rely to get through that family breakdown and make the transition to single parenthood. When I was director of the National Council for One Parent Families, even women in relationships that were financially well off described to me how important child benefit had been at that moment of family change. If women start to forgo that benefit under pressure from a partner who later decides to leave the household altogether, I worry that we will disadvantage those women and their children, which is something that we will regret.

I am surprised by the Government’s approach because it introduces a policy that will act as a disincentive to work. Universal child benefit does not disadvantage those who move into paid employment, because the benefit remains. The incentive to increase income through more working hours or going for a promotion will be removed for some families, and I cannot understand why Ministers, who are often concerned to incentivise people to maximise their income from employment, wish to go down such a route. The Government have the right objective, but this policy seems particularly perverse.

As my hon. Friends and the hon. Member for Christchurch have highlighted, the complexity that is being introduced into the system is completely at odds with the Government’s stated intention to simplify the tax system. Simplicity is not just an advantage in itself, but it means that payment is more reliable, and more likely to be accurate and more predictable. There is also much less stigma attached to the receipt of a simple universal flat-rate payment for all families.

One criticism is often levelled against the payment of child benefit to richer people, and it would probably have been made this morning had more hon. Members attended the debate—today there are mostly proponents of child benefit in the Chamber, which is perhaps why the point has not been raised. I want to put on record my response to those who ask why we are giving child benefit to people on higher incomes and asking those on lower incomes to help pay for that. The fact is that we do not—and should not—make the same argument when it comes to the national health service or our children’s education, and we do not make it for the tax system or say that higher earners should not receive the benefit of the recent increase in the tax threshold. As I am sure the hon. Member for Christchurch will remember, the higher rate of child benefit for the first child was intended to replace what had previously been the married couple’s tax allowance. It seems particularly perverse that we are now effectively seeking to tax a tax allowance, instead of understanding that in every other part of the tax system, such allowances stretch across the income spectrum. Now, we have decided to treat child benefit differently.

[Roberta Blackman-Woods]

My hon. Friend is making an excellent speech and she has touched on the heart of the problem caused by the proposed changes. The Government are destroying the principle of universality that has underpinned this benefit for years. We should think of all children as being important to our community, and we all share in the benefits that children bring to society. To denigrate the principle of universality says something about the values of this Government. What will be next?

[Kate Green]

I am grateful to my hon. Friend. Her point about universality is fundamentally about the social glue, integration and the sense of communal interest in our children that universal benefits bring.

As others have said, these proposals are unjustifiable as a matter of principle, and unworkable in practice. Hon. Members have alluded to the difficulties of coping, both for families and for the Revenue, when family circumstances change. It may be complicated to pick out who has been a member of a household over the course of a year, or to state at what point they became one, so it may be difficult to assess at what point that should result in a tax liability.

--- Later in debate ---

[Sheila Gilmore (Edinburgh East) (Lab)]

I do not intend to say very much in this debate. The reason why I did not seek to catch your eye before, Mr Streeter, was that I thought that I might have to leave. I will have to leave before I have the benefit of the Minister’s response and I apologise for that, but I am serving on the Finance Bill Committee.

I want, however, to say a little about the difficulties that can arise in relation to family structures and so on. As someone who was a family lawyer, I know how relationships can not only break up but re-form, and that may happen over a relatively short period. That is a practical aspect of this issue that I am not sure has been taken fully into account. As family lawyers, we used to joke that we achieved a higher rate of reconciliation than marriage guidance counsellors. People’s lives are not linear. They do not necessarily go straightforwardly through this process: “Oh, I’ve fallen out with my partner. Now we’re separating and that’s it.” It is very common for people to encounter a circumstance that leads to a break-up and then to reconcile. It may be a very serious situation. Even in cases of domestic violence, people reconcile. As a solicitor, I might sometimes have wished that they had not; nevertheless, they do so.

A relationship structure can change quite a lot, even in a single financial year. That is an additional layer of complication. It should not be assumed that just because people are paying higher rates of tax that relationship breakdowns do not happen, because that is far from the case. That is yet another practical issue that must be addressed.

The position could have been very different. Perhaps all Governments wonder how they arrived at certain decisions. If we look back at this one, it seemed to arise from what looked like a clever wheeze. It was announced at a party conference, which is never a good time to announce policy, because it is the headline of the day that is very much wanted. I suspect that the thinking was, “Ah! We can really get the Labour party here. We are going to take a benefit away from higher rate taxpayers and the Labour party won’t dare to oppose that, so we will have got them on the run.”

We said right from the beginning, as well as dealing with all the issues about fairness and the reason why child benefit and its predecessor, family allowance, were introduced in the first place, that there was a practical issue. Many of the practical criticisms were voiced at that time. This all dates back to October 2010. A year later, those practicalities had apparently not been thought through very carefully. Some amendments have now been brought into being—at the last gasp—but those changes produce yet more anomalies. They produce a marginal rate of tax for some families that is far higher than presumably anyone would think was desirable for people who are in the middle ranges of income. Some families will face marginal tax rates of 50% to 60% because of how the changes take place and particularly the tapering. That has been introduced to try to make things a bit better, but arguably may make things a whole lot worse, because it introduces a whole new level of complexity.

Hon. Members have mentioned not just the community charge but the ill-fated and, in my view, ill-thought-out 10p tax rate abolition proposal. I have said this before and I know that many of my colleagues have. I was not in this place at the time, but as party members and activists, we have a view on these things and we thought, “Oh no, this is not good.”

[Roberta Blackman-Woods]

Is not the point about the 10p tax rate debacle—I think we would all accept that that is what it was—that when the outcome of that policy was made obvious, the Labour Government of the day reversed most of the adverse consequences of the policy? We see no indication from the current Government that they will do the same.

[Sheila Gilmore]

I agree. The point that I was making was that, sometimes, what looks like a clever idea to start with quickly unravels into something that is much more difficult. The slight amendments that were made to the current proposal before it was introduced into the Budget, far from addressing the issues, are making the whole thing even more complicated. Not much time seems to have been given to work these things through. Some campaigners are suggesting to the Government that it is not too late. If they are still minded to implement this proposal in some way, shape or form—I hope that they will not want to—they should at the very least not go ahead with it starting from January of next year, given that it has been so poorly thought out and the implications and problems have not yet been fully resolved. To put a hold on it and perhaps come back if they think that they have solved those problems—ideally, they would not come back with it at all—would be sensible at this stage. I urge the Minister to give that very serious consideration.

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[Cathy Jamieson]

I thank the hon. Gentleman for that intervention. It is not for me to interpret what the Conservative Whips Office is able to do to deliver people to the debate and ensure that they turn up. None the less, we have heard some very powerful speeches, not least from the hon. Gentleman himself.

[Roberta Blackman-Woods]

Perhaps we should also note, especially as the idea for the policy appears to have come from Liberal Democrat members of the coalition, that there are no Liberal Democrats here at all to defend their ridiculous policy.

--- Later in debate ---

[Cathy Jamieson]

My hon. Friend makes another useful point. We raised that issue with the Minister on the Floor of the House. Many people, because they get a bonus at work or because they are self-employed, will find at the end of the year that they have earned either more or less than they anticipated. Many self-employed people are not earning huge sums of money, so such issues are critical to them.

[Roberta Blackman-Woods]

My hon. Friend is being most generous. A back-dated pay increase is another circumstance that must be quite common.

[Cathy Jamieson]

That is an important point.

[Cathy Jamieson]

My hon. Friends have given very practical, real-life examples of the kind of circumstances in which people may feel penalised for doing particular types of work or for taking on additional risks and responsibilities. A thing that we hoped that we could persuade the Government to do, if nothing else, was not to implement the changes straight away, and perhaps the Minister could come back on that point. If they are intent on doing this—the Opposition believe that they would be wrong to do so, and I hope that they will pull back—at the very least would they be prepared to pause, produce a report and look at the circumstances in which people would be adversely affected?

My hon. Friends the Members for Bishop Auckland (Helen Goodman) and for Stretford and Urmston raised the tax implications, and my hon. Friend the Member for East Lothian (Fiona O’Donnell) mentioned national insurance contributions. The main concern around those is that when organisations such as the Institute of Chartered Accountants and others that deal with tax issues day to day say that the principles are wrong, it is of serious concern. The Minister has to say whether taxing an individual in respect of money that was paid to someone else is not a fundamental change in how individual taxation is dealt with. I will give him the opportunity to intervene if he wishes, but perhaps he prefers to answer in his speech. Such organisations have looked at the proposals and raised serious concerns. It is a shift and could open opportunities in other ways for similar proposals to be brought in, which would be extremely concerning for the reasons that other hon. Members have set out.

Until I heard the Minister’s earlier comment, I was not aware that his wife was a lawyer. I am sure that she has some views about how, rather than defending the policy, the Government now seem to be relying on describing it as absolutely legal, as was identified earlier. None the less, there are questions about how they arrived at that position. When the regulations to justify the legality of this were introduced in Parliament, were they discussed in relation to child benefit or any other benefit issues? Was it ever anticipated that those regulations would be used in such a context? Could he deal with that issue in his response? If he cannot answer today, I have tabled a parliamentary question that I hope he will answer in due course.

I want to give the Minister time to respond, so I will speed up. I have made those points because the report from the Institute of Chartered Accountants identified the issue of HMRC using the tax system to claw back a benefit from one individual that was paid to another. The tax system is based on individuals and the benefit system is based on households, so that undermines the principle of taxation. I have not seen anything from the Minister that describes how a household will be interpreted in the tax regulations. Families in similar financial situations could be treated quite differently, which undermines the policy of fairness. Changed family circumstances could, as we have heard, make it difficult or impossible to calculate the clawback, or determine who should pay it; and, indeed, we have heard examples showing that if family circumstances change during the year someone will be presented with a tax bill at the end of it, leading to greater uncertainty about family budgets.

There has also been concern about collecting the charge through PAYE coding. The report by the Institute of Chartered Accountants in England and Wales states that it could lead to delays of up to three years, and undermine the efficiency of the whole system, because any coding adjustment is an estimate, and it would be necessary to re-estimate the code repeatedly. We are no longer just dealing with the principle of child benefit; we are dealing with a fundamental change to the taxation system. That should be scrutinised further. I hope that the Minister will be able to give some responses to the issues that have been raised this morning. Will he also address the point made by my hon. Friend the Member for East Lothian—she raised, it, indeed, on the Floor of the House—and others about women who might forgo the opportunity to claim child benefit, but would not receive credits for their national insurance contributions? That is a serious matter that has not been addressed.

[Roberta Blackman-Woods]

Is it not critical that women should understand at this stage that that is a possible outcome of the changes? People have already started writing to me on the issue, and the Government need to take action.

[Cathy Jamieson]

It is an important point. I want to put another couple of related questions to the Minister. In the budget for dealing with the consequences, a certain amount of money was put aside for marketing. I raised with the Minister on the Floor of the House the issues of what information is available, and how to assess who is likely to be caught by the circumstances. I would like to hear exactly how the Minister intends to communicate to the individuals involved—to get the information out, and get the advice to those likely to be affected. How will he ensure that people do not make damaging decisions at a point in their lives when it may be easier to do that, without looking at the longer-term consequences? We all know that there are situations—we heard examples in the debate—in which an individual in a household may feel under pressure to do something that is not particularly to their advantage.

I hope that the Minister will be able to deal with the points I have made. I will finish by returning to the point about section 18(2)(a) of the Commissioners for Revenue and Customs Act 2005, which the Government have cited, arguing that it makes the use of the tax system legal in the present context. The understanding of the Association of Chartered Certified Accountants is that that use of the provision is a last resort in the giving of one partner’s information to another. ACCA suggests that only where taxpayers who must talk to one another to make the system work correctly do not do so should the section be brought into play. How will the Government assess when to use it and breach confidentiality? There are serious issues about what information about one partner will be given to another. Will it be only “Your partner is in a higher tax band”, or will it be detailed information? I do not think we have had an answer to that.

I hope the Minister can give us the information this morning. It is worth noting that earlier in the week the Institute of Chartered Accountants warned that the new tax would be an “operational disaster”. Surely that should be of concern to the Minister, and should mean that we get answers this morning, and that the Government think again.