Domestic Ivory Market

Rob Marris Excerpts

Monday 6th February 2017 Westminster Hall

[Luke Hall]

As I have said, I welcome the Government’s leadership. Other countries around the world are also taking action. Hong Kong has confirmed that it will totally ban all ivory sales within five years. In August last year, France proposed further restrictions on its domestic market. India has implemented a near-total ban. The US introduced a near-total ban on all ivory sales at a federal level in July 2016, and 80% of African elephant range countries support the closure of domestic ivory markets.

It is clear that the public support further action, as is demonstrated by more than 107,000 people—2,000 just over the weekend—signing the petition and therefore triggering the debate, which is the second on this subject in two months. Further research carried out by TNS in September 2016 found that 85% of the public think that buying and selling ivory in the UK should be banned.

[Rob Marris (Wolverhampton South West) (Lab)]

It has been suggested by some of those who are against a ban that a certification system could be introduced, whereby pieces of ivory to be sold in the United Kingdom market would have to carry a certificate indicating that they were pre-1947. The hon. Gentleman said a moment ago that radiocarbon dating is very expensive. I am not an expert. Can he give an indication of how much it would cost per piece?

[Luke Hall]

I cannot give an exact indication, but the point I was trying to make is that radiocarbon dating every piece of ivory would be hugely time-consuming and cumbersome. I will say what more I think the Government can do on this important matter later.

The Government’s response to the online petition stated that the consultation would be a

“step towards a total ban.”

That is welcome, but I urge them to take a bigger step by widening the remit of their forthcoming consultation to cover all possible scenarios, including a total ban on the domestic trade in ivory, while considering international examples that include tightly-defined exemptions for items such as musical instruments and items with very small amounts of ivory. That would allow the ban to be practical and enforceable. Parallel measures can also be taken, such as supporting foreign Governments to protect elephants and supporting education around the world.

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[Rob Marris]

The hon. Lady has just adduced a very interesting and helpful piece of evidence. She referred to carbon dating—that is how Hugh Fearnley-Whittingstall found those six ringers. Can she give us an indication of how much it would cost to carbon date each piece, to put into context whether it would be better to produce a certificated system?

[Pauline Latham]

I have no idea; I have never even thought about having anything carbon dated. However, the cost is not what matters. What matters is having something independently certified to prove that it is old and not new. We cannot expect the police or Border Force people to understand and to be able to look at a piece and say, “That’s post-1947 and that’s pre-1947.” It is just not possible.

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[Danny Kinahan]

Having a very clear date is absolutely right. I point out only that a date of 1900 means that we miss out on two of our greatest art movements, so we should keep that in mind. Coming from the other side, I want to see an ivory ban, but I want to see the trade being protected in the right way.

[Rob Marris]

I am not an expert in these things, but because of the horrors of the atomic bombs in Japan, 1947 does not seem to be a bad date for carbon dating. The hon. Gentleman just said that he does not particularly favour a carbon dating approach. He is much more of an expert than me, so can he indicate how much it would cost to carbon date each piece?

[Danny Kinahan]

My answer is no—I have never been involved in the carbon dating side of things. I have been involved in working out the provenance and the date so that we have the complete history of where something came from, and the value, but I have never been involved in carbon dating and have no idea how much it costs.

We have watched ISIS destroying Palmyra and the Taliban destroy the two fantastic Buddha statues in Bamiyan. If we had a blanket ban, we would be a little bit on the same page, in that we would be trying to get rid of some of the most beautiful items. If ivory were banned, it would not be looked after because it would be worthless. I have seen that happen with a most beautiful Edwardian shotgun stick. It was made illegal—it was banned—and was left in the local police station. It had to be cut into pieces, even though it was one of the most beautiful pieces I have seen—it had a little gold top and a lion’s head and everything on it. Are we really trying to go down that route?

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[Victoria Borwick (Kensington) (Con)]

It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Brady; I am sorry that my voice today is not quite as strong as it might be. I declare an interest: I am president of the British Antique Dealers Association and I have been advised by the British Art Market Federation, the Antiquities Dealers Association and LAPADA, which comprise a group of Britain’s most knowledgeable and highly regarded auction houses and specialist dealers in fine art, decorative arts and antiques.

The fact that a second ivory debate has been triggered by a petition to Parliament demonstrates the strength of feeling among the public about the plight of elephants. I therefore really hope that we can clear up these misunderstandings about ivory and about antiques. For the record, I must emphasise that the British antiques trade deplores the trade in poached ivory. The most important point that I need to make is that the antiques trade does not support the killing of elephants, nor does it support any system that allows raw ivory from post-1947 sources to be traded. Every hon. Member present agrees that we must look to our future, for our children and our grandchildren, but we must not throw away our past. We all welcome the proposals from my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs to remove from sale all ivory items that are less than 70 years old. Antiques collectors have no interest in items made from modern or poached ivory. We all welcome tougher measures to stop the sale of tourist trinkets made in recent decades.

This is, understandably, an emotive topic, so it is crucial to be factually correct. The e-petition claims:

“From 2009 to 2014, 40% of UK customs seizures were ivory”.

That is not correct. For example, the Border Force typically makes 500 drug seizures a month. Cases of ivory seizure represent less than 1% of all seizures. The British Antique Dealers Association’s understanding is that the Border Force does not regard the UK as the final destination for poached ivory. Most seizures are of one or two small carved items, often old objects that lack the necessary paperwork. A smaller number of seizures are of tusks and freshly carved trinkets that have arrived here in transit, destined for other countries, and I concur with my hon. Friends that that is something that we need to stamp out.

Last year’s TRAFFIC report, backed by the World Wildlife Fund, on the antique ivory trade in Britain concluded:

“Links with the current elephant poaching crisis appear tenuous at best, as researchers found no new or raw (unworked) ivory for sale, and only one item that was reportedly after the 1947 cut-off date for antique ivory.”

We all know that the largest market for ivory as a material is in the far east, as other Members have said this afternoon. Buyers there have no interest in most historical objects on sale in the UK; they desire ivory in any form and prefer it shiny and modern. Other EU countries must therefore stop exporting whole tusks to China. As has been mentioned, the Chinese Government’s announcements of further restrictions are very welcome, but they have to happen and they have to be enforced. They cannot come soon enough. It is in the far east that we must galvanise our resources. We should stop confusing ourselves on the topic by looking at our own medieval treasures in our museums, churches, homes and antique dealers. We must protect our history.

[Rob Marris]

The hon. Lady has connections with the antique trade, as she has declared. Can she answer the question that I keep asking, which is whether the antique trade would support some kind of certification system? There is already some paperwork—she spoke about paperwork on seizures and so on. Can she also tell me how much it costs to radiocarbon date a piece of ivory?

[Victoria Borwick]

Certainly. I can answer both questions. There are many parts of the art and antiques dealers’ trade for which we keep catalogues, make certifications and work among trade associations and specialists to keep certificates, records and suchlike. I have absolutely no doubt that when the Minister sets out her suggestions on a committee or a way of taking things forward, the trade will willingly look at ideas about the certification of finer objects with photographs and detailed descriptions of provenance, size and so forth, so that they can be properly catalogued.

With carbon dating, a very tiny item can be destroyed if too much is drilled out, which is why everyone is so reluctant to do it. However, as other Members have said, it is usually easy to tell. The usual cost is a few hundred pounds, but it very much depends on the complexity of the object. With early Chinese and other works of art that have been around for hundreds or thousands of years, there is always a lot of unhappiness about drilling out the left foot, because it inevitably spoils the item. I am sorry if that was a rather longer answer than the hon. Gentleman wished for.

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[Dr Lisa Cameron (East Kilbride, Strathaven and Lesmahagow) (SNP)]

It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Brady.

I thank the Petitions Committee and also the public, for the 107,000 signatures. I am sure that members of the public will continue to sign this type of petition until the Government act. My constituents remind me every week of the importance of animal welfare and particularly the importance of preserving and conserving elephant populations. That is important to them, it is important to me and—as we have already heard today from a number of Members—it is important for future generations.

I thank the hon. Member for Thornbury and Yate (Luke Hall) for opening this debate. It is an important and iconic debate at Westminster. I was pleased to speak in the debate last month and it is a privilege to speak again today, because in my mind preventing the ivory trade cannot be spoken about enough in Parliament until action is taken.

As we have heard, 415,000 African elephants remain, but in Mozambique and Tanzania, the decline in elephant populations has been as high as 48% and 60% respectively. As a result, the International Union for Conservation of Nature has concluded that

“Africa’s overall elephant population has seen the worst decline in 25 years, mainly due to poaching”

over the past 10 years. Some people in this House do not like experts, but we should listen to experts on this issue. Experts indicate that wild elephants could be extinct within as little as 20 years. My young children saw elephants for the first time last summer and I will never forget the amazement on their faces. They saw them moving around and saw the baby elephants with their mother, and they still speak of it today. Surely it is incumbent on us to ensure that that opportunity, that experience and that nature is there for future generations. We must preserve this iconic species.

Announcements from the United States and China point to the implementation of complete bans on the ivory trade in those countries. In addition, a number of other nations have implemented restrictions on the sale of ivory, including France and India in 2016, and Hong Kong, forthcoming, in 2021. Will the Minister join me in welcoming those moves, but also give assurances that the United Kingdom will follow suit, to maintain its prominence as a world leader in tackling the issue? It is very concerning that we are no longer at the forefront; sadly, we are lagging behind. Indeed, since the Conservative party’s pledge to press for a total ban on sales in both its 2010 and 2015 manifestos, more than 144,000 African elephants have been poached for their ivory. We seem to be dilly-dallying while the elephants are dying.

[Rob Marris]

I am genuinely on the fence on this. The hon. Lady prayed in aid of experts earlier. What expert evidence does she have that the total ban she seeks will lessen poaching considerably, or at all?

[Dr Cameron]

That excellent question is the crux of the matter, and it is something we need to pursue. In my mind, time is running out and we cannot allow that. We are dilly-dallying. If a near-total ban is not enough to preserve the elephant population, then it is not enough. Those experts are crucial to ensuring that the right decisions are made. The UK public need those decisions to be made and the Government need to follow them. The UK public support a ban on the ivory trade here, so a ban is not against public opinion. In fact, 85% of the public think that buying and selling ivory in the UK should be banned. We must consider the evidence. That is the crux and we must take it forward.

The other issue is sustainable livelihoods in Africa. The elephant brings much to the community and, as a member of the Select Committee on International Development, I am keen to see aid money going towards the conservation of elephant and rhino populations and helping the sustainable development of conservation in African countries.

Consultation takes time, and elephants and rhinoceroses do not have that time. If we want to preserve these species, do we have the time? We must take the lead. I wonder how many elephants have died in the month since I last spoke on the issue. It is so frustrating. If we cannot wait, the Government must act. The elephant cannot become the dodo of our generation under this Government. Is that the legacy this Government want?

The question is: is a near-total ban enough? We need that information. If it is not, then in my mind it is not good enough. It is incumbent on the Minister today not merely to respond, because time is running thin. We need to act. We need to act now, for our children, for their generations and for the human race, because they will forgive nothing less. We have heard today about chess sets, antiques, trinkets and all sorts of things in museums. Yes, we must find a place for those things and try to preserve them, but the crux of today’s argument is that elephants are priceless and we must act.

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[Rob Marris]

First, I thank the right hon. Gentleman for actually producing some evidence with that £500 figure. He will not be surprised to hear me say this, but it looks like having a certification system at £500 a pop for pre-1947 ivory is the way forward to balance things. He has spoken passionately, and I hope he gets on to this matter. I asked the hon. Member for East Kilbride, Strathaven and Lesmahagow (Dr Cameron) for some evidence that a total ban on the domestic ivory market, which is what the debate is about, will stop or lessen considerably—hopefully to zero—the poaching of elephants. I am not getting a causal connection there, because I am not hearing the evidence.

[Mr Paterson]

I am grateful to my not-so-distant neighbour for his kind compliments. First, it is easy to cheat, and people in the trade will cheat. Hugh Fearnley-Whittingstall may not be an expert. He is a BBC journalist, and he did a pretty simple test. He bought nine items. Six that were masquerading as pre-1947 were dated as post-1947. We must not underestimate the fact that there is massive cheating.

My hon. Friend the Member for Kensington quoted TRAFFIC. It did a survey in September 2016 of the whole of London’s antique sector. It found ivory items widespread across the city’s antiques markets. The report found that

“the UK plays a role in illegal ivory trade, at both import and re-export, but in particular as a transit country, with ivory seizures reported by the UK having increased in recent years.”

It also pointed out how cheating can go on. It mentioned a fascinating case. As a country, we reported exports of only 17 raw tusks, but importers’ records showed 109 tusks originating from the UK. There is no doubt whatever that an illegal trade is going on and that people are cheating. They give cover to other activities in other markets. We simply cannot take the high ground and ask other countries to ban activities, as the Chinese have done, if we have not set an example. Our proposed ban on post-1947 ivory is sadly now inadequate and is being overtaken by countries such as China and India, which have introduced bans.

[Rob Marris]

I am grateful to the right hon. Gentleman for producing evidence, but he has left me more confused. When I looked at it, I found that the August 2016 report by TRAFFIC, “A Rapid Survey of UK Ivory Markets”, stated that links between the antiques trade and

“the current elephant poaching crisis appear tenuous at best.”

Of more than 3,000 objects sampled, no new or unworked ivory was found. Only one item from the 1960s came after the 1947 cut-off date for antique ivory. Are we reading different reports?

[Mrs Anne Main in the Chair.]

[Mr Paterson]

The hon. Gentleman has cited evidence of cheating. The point is that the UK is by far the largest exporter of ivory items among EU members. According to CITES, the EU had a huge export volume of about 1,874 ivory transactions from 2006 to 2015, but we were easily the largest with 25,351. That is 54% of the EU total, and we know cheating goes on. Bluntly, we have to learn lessons. In China, it has always been an iconic key feature of great family occasions—a wedding, a banquet or a state occasion—to eat shark fin soup. It has come down from on high in recent years and the party establishment in China has said, “We have got to stop this because of the damage to shark populations,” and they have. Habits have changed.

The immediate reaction to ivory is, “Great. There’s world demand. It is marvellous that there is now prosperity in China and people are not dying of starvation as they were when I grew up. Let us let them prosper. Let them buy ivory and let us grow more of the item.” The problem is that we simply cannot farm elephants and rhinoceroses and meet the demand. If there is any legal activity, it gives cover to the illegal activity. That is a tragedy. I would love to be a Hayekian on this. I would love to say, “Let us open up savannahs and grow masses of elephants.”

We cannot cope with 600 million new middle-class people with middle-class aspirations in China, where ivory has great value and is seen to be an investment. That is the worst thing. Some are buying ivory knowing that the supply will dwindle and ultimately disappear when elephants are exterminated, and their product will go up. The answer is to follow what they did on shark fins. Let us simply make this a non-U item. It should simply not be acceptable.

We have stopped drink-driving. It is no longer acceptable in this country. It is very simple. I am afraid I totally disagree with the hon. Member for South Antrim and my hon. Friend the Member for Kensington. It is completely ludicrous to put things on the same level.

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[Rachael Maskell]

The hon. Lady knows so much about this subject matter—[Interruption.] She denies it. There may be other contributing factors, so that still does not necessarily date the actual ivory, and that is the subject for today’s debate. We have to move on from trying to draw arbitrary lines and making judgments, either with the human eye or with carbon dating—we have had contributions about the costing of that—and say, “Why make things so complicated, when out there across the country and in this House we want a total ban?” Let us move on from that debate. Let us be really pragmatic and bring in the total ban.

[Rob Marris]

My hon. Friend is making a powerful case. I am trying to be pragmatic. I keep pressing for the evidence. I have to say to her, with all due respect, that she is assuming what she is trying to prove, and I do not accept that as a legislator. She assumes that a total ban will save elephants. Can she give me evidence for that?

[Rachael Maskell]

If my hon. Friend will hold on for now, I will move on with my speech. I will pick up those issues. The problem is, as we argue and debate in here, the gangsters out there are laughing at us, as they are still making their millions on the back of dead elephants. To be seen to take leadership on this issue and to control the agenda, it is so important that we now move forward and see that total ban. We know that the Government promised that in their manifesto, and I have made it clear that Labour would also bring in a total ivory ban, so let us move forward on this today.

The clock continues to tick. We keep debating this issue, and I dare say that if movement is not made in the Minister’s contribution today, we will be back here again and again, and at question times, continually saying, “Let’s move forward, because there is a majority view of how we take this forward.” We cannot go back to the CITES conference or to Hanoi in 2016, or look back to what China has said. We are in 2017 and we have now got our opportunity to make our mark. I therefore urge the Minister to do that, because in 2018 I do not want the UK to be on the world stage as apologists. I want to ensure that we are proud of what we have achieved to save the elephant.

I want to pick up the point that this is not just about a total ban; there has to be a wider strategy built around that. That is right, and that goes to the point made by my hon. Friend the Member for Wolverhampton South West (Rob Marris). We have to make sure that we move forward. We have heard about the work that the Ministry of Defence is doing: the 1st Division is out there, training up people in the parks to ensure they have better security. That is part of the strategy and, as we have heard, education from the NGOs is absolutely vital, so that this generation and the next understand what is at stake.

We also need to think about what is happening with antiques, as we have heard debated today. I want to pick up the point strongly argued by the hon. Members for South Antrim (Danny Kinahan) and for Kensington (Victoria Borwick). I will take issue once again with calling them beautiful works of art. I am sorry, they are not. The reality is that animals have died for their production. We need to be honest about what we are dealing with. The problem is, every time these objects are glorified, value is added on to them and on to ivory. We want to see the value taken out of ivory. We do not want these items displayed as glorious parts of our heritage. It is a shameful part of our history, and we should name it as that and realise what we did in leading the world in those trades. We need to move on in the way in which we look at these pieces and name them for what they are.

Why have them on display? The Minister made an important point in the previous debate when she said that perhaps we could take them off the shelves of our museums. Perhaps that is the right way forward. I thought that was a progressive point, because that is a way of taking the value out of these items. That would be a first step in saying that they do not hold the value we have placed on them, and that would be a step forward.

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[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Dr Thérèse Coffey)]

It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mrs Main. As has been pointed out, we last debated this matter in Westminster Hall on 8 December 2016 and since then a further 30,000 people have signed this petition created by Ellen Cobb and chosen for debate by the Petitions Committee. I thank my hon. Friend the Member for Thornbury and Yate (Luke Hall) for opening the debate and I am pleased to have the opportunity to respond.

It is clear that all of us here are united in our goal to stop the poaching of elephants that are being slaughtered for their ivory. Elephant numbers in most African states have seriously declined over the last decade. The brutal actions of criminals are endangering the survival of one of the world’s iconic species. That is why the Government are already taking action to end poaching, involving proposals for legislative action, which I hope will be consulted on very soon. We are working in the international community to provide global leadership to reduce the demand for ivory and direct action on enforcement, tackling the issue at source and through illegal wildlife trade channels.

Illegal wildlife trade is a global issue that can be effectively tackled only with co-ordinated international action. The UK’s rules on ivory have their basis in the international CITES agreements, implemented via EU legislation, although UK rules are already stronger than required by CITES and the EU. We do not permit exports of any ivory tusks given the obvious potential for such international trade to be used to bring illegal, recently poached ivory tusks on to the market. We expect shortly to publish our consultation and a call for evidence on proposals to extend a ban on the domestic sale of ivory and the enforcement of such a ban. I like to think that the House will see then that our initial proposals will be among the toughest in the world.

[Rob Marris]

The hon. Member for North Ayrshire and Arran (Patricia Gibson) aid that while legal ivory trade in pre-1947 items continues, there will be an illegal ivory trade. That is true, but it is not the right question. The question is—perhaps the Minister can help with this—what is the evidence that if there is no legal ivory trade of pre-1947 items, there will be no illegal trade?

[Dr Thérèse Coffey]

I understand the argument that people have made about any market at all, and many of the examples cited today still allow a market in ivory. It will be important, in the call for evidence, for people to come forward and demonstrate that point, for the reasons I hope to set out.

Last September, my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State announced plans for a ban on the sale of worked ivory that is less than 70 years old—from 1947 onwards. That demarcation is used across Europe and was chosen because it was 50 years before the EU wildlife trade regulations came into force to regulate trade and protect endangered wildlife. By using that date for their proposed ban on the sale of ivory, the Government are on solid legal ground to bring a near-total ban into effect quickly. For control and enforcement, there are advantages in working with a date already used by the trade and the rest of the EU to draw a dividing line.

I recognise that many people want the UK to take an even stronger stance on the ivory trade and, as the petitioners demand, that there be no trade at all in ivory. Let me reassure the House that the Government are open to views on the matter. That is why the consultation will include an open question on this, with a call for views and evidence. I am regularly informed, and have been in this debate, that other nations have banned trade, so why have we not yet done so? I think that it would be helpful to set out to the House what is happening around the world.

The US has introduced what has been described as a near-total ban. The US Government can act only at federal level, and their ban covers trade internationally and between states, although it does not affect trade within states. The ban prohibits trade in ivory items that are under 100 years old and continues to allow the trade in pieces older than 100 years, as that is the US’s legal definition of an antique. The federal ban also provides for a range of exemptions, including musical instruments and items that contain a small amount of ivory. Four states have so far chosen to apply similar controls within their state. Those restrictions do not seem to apply to establishments for educational or scientific research purposes, which includes museums. My right hon. Friend the Member for North Shropshire (Mr Paterson) referred to action by California, but he will recognise that trade continues.