Anti-social Behaviour, Crime and Policing Bill

Debate between Richard Fuller and Julie Hilling

Tuesday 15th October 2013 Commons Chamber

[Richard Fuller]

If the hon. Gentleman does not mind, I will not give way, because others want to get in.

I believe that 14 years is the right maximum penalty. I am grateful to my hon. Friend the Member for North East Cambridgeshire (Stephen Barclay) and my hon. and learned Friend the Member for Sleaford and North Hykeham (Stephen Phillips) for saying that, in many ways, it is equivalent to the maximum penalty imposed for dangerous driving. I believe that 14 years would send a strong message that owners must now take responsibility, and not just assume that it lies with the dog, and to judges, who today, even with the inadequate maximum penalty available, are not handing out very significant sentences when they should.

I want us to provide reassurance that this would be a maximum penalty, not a mandatory penalty, and that we are not asking people to lock up their dogs, as the hon. Member for Penistone and Stocksbridge (Angela Smith) mentioned; we have to get the balance right. I will listen to the Minister, who is casting a fresh set of eyes on this, but let us not forget that at the moment the dog gets a death penalty, but the owner walks away pretty much scot-free. That is not responsible. The Government need to be responsible today and say what they intend to do.

[Julie Hilling (Bolton West) (Lab)]

I want to speak specifically to new clause 6, other new clauses in my name and some of the amendments.

The House will be aware of the tragedy that occurred in my constituency on 26 March, when 14-year-old Jade Lomas-Anderson was killed by four out-of-control dogs in the house of a friend where she was staying overnight. My hon. Friend the Member for Croydon North (Mr Reed) has paid tribute to Jade’s dad and his friend Royston Brett, who cycled from Atherton to Westminster over the weekend to add their voice to those calling for the legislation to be strengthened in this area.

By all accounts, Jade was a smashing girl, full of life, kind to everyone and a good friend to many. When her parents were asked what Jade would have thought about their campaign for justice, they answered that she would have been the first to campaign, as she was such a caring girl. Her life was cut tragically short, but because of shortcomings in current legislation, no one can be held accountable. The tragedy has had a profound effect, not only on Jade’s mum and dad, Shirley and Michael, and her immediate family, but on the whole community of Atherton.

Jade’s parents have bravely led a campaign supported by the community and by Wigan council to ensure that no other family suffers like they have. As Michael says, this is a problem of epidemic proportions. According to the People’s Dispensary for Sick Animals, 1 million dogs have displayed dangerous behaviour towards people and animals in the past year. About 250,000 attacks are made by dogs each year and 12 postal workers will have been attacked by dogs today. The cost to the NHS and taxpayers is about £9.5 million. According to my figures, more than 6,000 people are hospitalised each year, many of whom will have received life-changing injuries, although my hon. Friend the Member for Croydon North said the number was higher. There have been 16 deaths since 2005 and I cannot even say that Jade was the last person to die, because in May 79-year-old Clifford Clarke was killed in Liverpool. In the area around Hag Fold, where Jade was killed, I know of three serious attacks since March. It is endless.

I am pleased that the Government are taking the issue seriously and that people could now be prosecuted for attacks on private property, and I sincerely hope that they will bring forward proposals to increase the penalties when the Bill goes to the other place, in the way that the hon. Member for Bedford (Richard Fuller) just described. I still believe, however, that they are missing a trick by ignoring the call from all the dog charities, the CWU, vets, nurses and the police to introduce straightforward legislation on dog control notices. I am sure that they believe their proposals will tackle this issue, but when all the dog charities and other vested interests are telling them they have got it wrong, they should listen. Fears that the Government’s proposals are too bureaucratic; that there would have to be more than one incident; that they would not apply if the dog had already been brought under control; and that they would not tackle the problem of dogs first becoming dangerously out of control must be taken seriously and be addressed either today or when the Bill goes to the other place. I hope that the Government see sense today and accept new clause 3.

Let me move on to new clause 6. I believe that the issue of having too many dogs in a household should be tackled as part of dog control notices. I wish I could talk in detail about the dogs that killed Jade, but unfortunately I cannot because the dogs’ owner still awaits sentence on dog cruelty charges. This demonstrates well how dog welfare and community safety are closely linked. For that reason, I will have to speak in the abstract.

Enterprise and Regulatory Reform Bill

Debate between Richard Fuller and Julie Hilling

Wednesday 17th October 2012 Commons Chamber

[Richard Fuller]

I thank my hon. Friend very much for that intervention.

[Julie Hilling (Bolton West) (Lab)]

I can understand why businesses do not want to face the reality of their actions, but we know that many businesses flout employment law, whether deliberately or innocently. If anybody breaks the law in any other walk of life, whether through a driving offence, robbing a shop or whatever, there is a penalty to be paid. Clause 14 is not about innocent omissions; it is about employers doing something deliberately. From many years of representing people, I know that employers often deliberately go against what is written in legislation. Surely they should have to pay some penalty for doing that, just as anybody would in any other walk of life. If someone breaks the law, they pay a cost.

[Richard Fuller]

The hon. Lady makes some good points from her experience, but my view is that we should focus our attention on ensuring that the aggrieved employee is in the best possible position to receive the maximum amount of the settlement that has been made in their favour. As was shown in evidence to the Public Bill Committee, in a large proportion of cases the employee does not get that amount. I do not see how it will help to add an additional burden on top of that, with the Government trying to take money as well. There seems to be a discord between that and our trying to do the best by employees. That is why I would rather the clause be completely removed.

I believe the shadow Minister said in the Public Bill Committee that in 59% of cases, employees do not receive the full settlement, and I would like the Government’s focus to be on reducing that figure. I believe that the clause is unhelpful, and as my hon. Friend the Member for Skipton and Ripon (Julian Smith) said, business representatives also believe that.

[Julie Hilling]

What, then, do we do with employers who continue to flout the law? I absolutely agree that the claimant should get the compensation to which they are entitled, but some employers continuously flout the law and just pay a small amount. Often, employees get a small award at tribunal anyway, depending on their age, length of service and income. What do we do with those employers?

[Richard Fuller]

That is an interesting question. My amateur response is that there are better ways to solve the problem than the method in clause 14. Imposing an additional burden in the form of money going to a different party, the Government, is not the optimum path to reach the resolution and outcome that both the hon. Lady and I would like to see when an employer has acted inappropriately and is not paying the bill that he or she should to the aggrieved employee. In general, as I have said a number of times, I would rather have the law presume that the employer is doing the right thing and will make the right payments. If he or she does not, there should be other measures, which perhaps the Minister can mention in her response.

As we have heard from my hon. Friend the Member for Skipton and Ripon, both the Federation of Small Businesses and the Institute of Directors have made representations to the Government that it would be better to remove the penalty on businesses imposed by clause 14. I have mentioned some of the representations made to the Government by the Law Society—that the benefits of imposing financial penalties on employers are not convincing—and, perhaps for slightly different reasons, from Opposition Members we have heard why the clause may not be good. I would rather leave those comments for the Minister to reflect on than push the amendments to a vote. I appreciate the hearing from the House.

Sure Start Children’s Centres

Debate between Richard Fuller and Julie Hilling

Wednesday 27th April 2011 Commons Chamber

[Richard Fuller (Bedford) (Con)]

I have listened with great interest to the debate. Speeches seem to have fallen into two categories: they have shown Sure Start as a shared success on which today’s debate gives us an opportunity to improve and they have made it a partisan issue and an opportunity to score points. We just heard from the right hon. Member for Birkenhead (Mr Field), a man whose comments are always listened to very attentively by Members on both sides of the House, and his speech was a classic example of the first of those two categories. He made some very good points, one of which I shall comment on—that is, improving and taking Sure Start to the next level. Of course, we have heard other speeches, most notably that made by the hon. Member for Hammersmith (Mr Slaughter), that are more partisan and point-scoring.

I felt that the shadow Secretary of State’s speech was uncharacteristically ineffectual today. I always look forward to listening to his speeches, but I felt that it fell somewhere in the middle, as though his brief told him to make some electioneering, rallying, partisan points but his heart told him that Sure Start was far too important to be brought down to that level.

I want to try to address some of the points and try to avoid some of the partisan claims. My first point concerns the closure of Sure Start centres. I know that many of my right hon. and hon. Friends went through the general election confronted by Labour party smear stories about our intentions for Sure Start. It was a disgraceful smear then and it is a disgraceful smear when we hear it repeated, albeit in a muted way, today.

I am glad to have heard Members on both sides of the House talk about those councils that, even in very difficult times, are showing their commitment by maintaining Sure Start centres and to have heard the commitment on that point from my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State. When we hear that councils such as Harlow and Kent, which my hon. Friend the Member for Sittingbourne and Sheppey (Gordon Henderson) mentioned, and, I understand, Liberal Democrat Councils and Labour councils such as Tameside have committed to maintaining Sure Start centres, surely that shows that this is truly a shared commitment for all parties. Why are other councils closing Sure Start centres? What have they done to find other savings? What sorts of overpaid jobs are they protecting? How analytical have they been about their budgets? Are we sure that they are not playing politics with children’s futures? I do not care what their political stripe is—I ask the Minister whether, through this process, he will pay close attention to the reasons why those councils are closing or threatening to close Sure Start centres.

[Julie Hilling]

Can the hon. Gentleman explain how a local authority such as Bolton can cut 25% of its budget without harming any of the services it provides?

[Richard Fuller]

That will definitely be a challenge. I know that the hon. Lady has deep experience in youth affairs and youth matters from her previous role, but people in Bolton have a higher level of public expenditure per head than we have in Bedford, where the deprivation level is about the same. When there are sharp reductions, that will cause some issues. That is an issue for her council to consider and it is crucial that services should come first for her council and for other councils. The methodology for delivering those services is where resources need to brought back into the budget.