Terrorism Prevention and Investigation Measures Bill

Debate between Richard Fuller and Diana Johnson

Tuesday 29th November 2011 Commons Chamber

[Diana Johnson (Kingston upon Hull North) (Lab)]

I thank the Minister for clearly setting out the bulk of the amendments. Having read the transcripts of the evidence sessions in Committee, it is clear that the Government were pushed and pressed, as is right, through effective scrutiny from all members of the Committee and Members in the other place, to table amendments to clarify the Bill’s intention. On that basis, the Opposition are satisfied with Lords amendments 1 to 10.

However, I want to comment on Lords amendment 11 and amendment (a) to it. As the Minister said, the Lords amendment increases the transitional period for which schedule 8 provides, during which a control order that is enforced immediately before the commencement of the Bill will remain in force, unless revoked or quashed before the end of that period, from 28 days to 42 days. The Opposition Front Benchers’ amendment would increase that transitional period to 365 days. It is worth pointing out that those who have put their names to the amendment include two former police and terrorism Ministers and a former Minister who dealt with terrorism in Northern Ireland in the previous Government. Those Members clearly have a lot of detailed information and experience in dealing with such matters, and they thought it appropriate to put their names to the amendment.

Why have we tabled amendment (a)? It is because we want to support the Government in keeping the country as safe as possible as they move to the new regime of TPIMs. I heard clearly the Minister’s comments about his commitment to national security being a top priority. Of course, the Opposition support that priority. However, we believe that a more flexible approach would be a better way forward on the transitional period that is in the Bill.

I certainly do not wish to reopen the debate on control orders, but we know that nine people are currently subject to them—a small number of people who are intent on doing grave harm to this country. It is not possible to prosecute them, but to keep the country safe, we need to impose intrusive restrictions on them. I think that there are 11 control orders in total, but nine have the power to relocate as one of the conditions. We know that the Home Secretary has used control orders with relocation provisions in cases CD and BM. In the case of CD, a challenge to the decision to relocate went to the High Court. It was dismissed and the relocation was upheld.

It is important to quote the Mayor of London, who obviously has a keen interest in those matters. He said on the case of CD:

“It’s clear from the court papers that he rejects and would like to destroy everything that makes this a great city. We don’t want this man in London.”

In moving to the new TPIMs regime, the relocation provisions will not be available to the Home Secretary in future. We want to ensure that no unnecessary risks are taken over the next 12 months. As hon. Members have already said, we will have major events in our city, including not only the Olympics and the Paralympics, but the diamond jubilee. So we need to ensure that London is kept as safe as possible in 2012.

[Richard Fuller]

The hon. Lady says that we need to ensure that there are no unnecessary risks, and she says, fairly, that she and other Labour Members share the Minister’s commitment to the security of the nation. But the Minister said that the period was necessary to ensure that effective arrangements were in place, and he believes that that period is 42 days. What evidence does the hon. Lady have that the period needs to be longer to ensure effective arrangements?

[Diana Johnson]

That is a very helpful intervention, because I want to move on to the evidence that was given to the Committee by Stuart Osborne, the deputy assistant commissioner for the Metropolitan police service and senior national co-ordinator for terrorism investigations. He also represents ACPO. The hon. and learned Member for Sleaford and North Hykeham (Stephen Phillips) asked Mr Osborne how long it would take for a new regime to bed in before it becomes law, to which he replied:

“I think I said it would take a year to procure and train sufficient additional assets before it would be ready to do that. We have to order some of the assets so that they are made in advance. To train a surveillance officer and then have them fully able to operate in a challenging environment probably takes at least 12 months before they are deployable. Once they are deployable, they have to work within the environment under a new set of regimes that will need to bed in.”––[Official Report, Terrorism Prevention and Investigation Measures Public Bill Committee, 21 June 2011; c. 10, Q31.]

On the basis of that evidence, which mentions the period of a year, hon. Members are concerned that we could be putting ourselves in a risky situation by rushing headlong into the new TPIMs regime.

Amendment of the Law

Debate between Richard Fuller and Diana Johnson

Wednesday 23rd March 2011 Commons Chamber

[Diana Johnson (Kingston upon Hull North) (Lab)]

Let me start by paying tribute to my hon. Friend the Member for Barnsley Central (Dan Jarvis) on making an excellent maiden speech. He talked about the spirit and aspiration of the people of Barnsley. I know that he will make a very good Member of Parliament and will certainly bring that spirit and aspiration to the House of Commons. Let me also say what pleasure I took in the election result in Barnsley. Seeing the good people of Yorkshire give the Liberal Democrats a real pasting—they put them in sixth place and made them lose their deposit—was enormously pleasurable.

The Chancellor talked about the necessity for growth across sectors and across the country. He also said that growth should be properly shared across all parts of the country. I want to talk about growth and the impact on the regions, and particularly the Yorkshire region and the sub-region in the Humber. We recently had some good news in Hull, which is that Siemens will hopefully set up a manufacturing site in east Hull to build wind turbines. That will result in about 10,000 jobs, which is excellent news for Hull and the Humber region. Like all Members across the House, I want a growing economy, high-skilled jobs for all the people in this country, and a well-educated and well-skilled work force. We have a history in Hull, having lost the fishing industry in years gone by, and other historic employment issues that we still need to address, so growth is important for my constituents and my city.

However, it is important that we take an economic reality check and ask what the Budget will actually deliver. The key thing—this has been mentioned by many hon. Members across the Chamber—is that the growth forecast was down last year, it was down this year and it is down the year after. The hopes and aspirations of all my constituents have been dashed by what has happened since this coalition Government came into power.

I want to set this debate in the context of what it means for my city of Hull. Since last May, £20 million has disappeared from Hull’s local economy because of the coalition’s council cuts. We will see £25 million leaving the NHS in Hull, while £160 million has already gone because plans for the regeneration project in Orchard Park have been axed. Hull’s housing pathfinder funding has gone. There is zero decent homes funding for the next three years. Some £21 million has been cut from Hull’s Building Schools for the Future programme, and the university of Hull is getting a 5% funding cut.

There are major cuts to services across the piece in the public sector in Hull, which has a direct impact on the private sector. I fail to understand why the coalition does not see that cutting the public sector to the extent that it is will not help growth, but produce even more problems.

[Richard Fuller]

Does the hon. Lady acknowledge that the country has record debts, and if so, which public expenditure cuts would she make?

[Diana Johnson]

I am concerned that our economy should grow, and I am trying to set into context—

[Richard Fuller]

rose—

[Diana Johnson]

Will the hon. Gentleman just let me finish? I paid him the respect of listening to his question; I would appreciate it if he would listen to what I have to say.

One way of getting out of the problems that we have experienced as a result of the bankers’ problems—not the Labour Government’s problems, as the hon. Member for Southend West (Mr Amess) tried to suggest—is to grow the economy. I am with the coalition Government on the need for a growth strategy for the economy, but the measures that have been taken so far will not help to grow the economy in Hull and the Humber.

[Richard Fuller]

Will the hon. Lady give way?

[Diana Johnson]

No, I want to carry on making the point about why there is a real need in Yorkshire and, in particular, the Humber to grow the economy. The measures that have been taken are not helping. The result of all that money being taken out of my city is that construction jobs are going and we shall not have the training or the apprenticeships that the Chancellor has talked about. For the first time, we have seen compulsory redundancies at BAE Systems, a major private sector employer just outside Hull on which many of my constituents rely for skilled jobs. It is a place where people want to work, but private sector jobs are being lost there.

The abolition of the regional development agency, Yorkshire Forward, is a huge loss to the region and to the building up of the regional economy. The coalition has introduced local enterprise partnerships to assist regeneration. We all agree that we need to regenerate areas such as East Yorkshire and the Humber, and Yorkshire Forward was doing a very good job of building up the economy. The Government’s answer was to remove the RDA and create a regional growth fund. Now, whenever a question is raised about where funding can be accessed, we are told to go to the regional growth fund. The housing pathfinder has been scrapped, and the Prime Minister told my hon. Friend the Member for Kingston upon Hull East (Karl Turner) to go to the regional growth fund for money. It seems to me that the fund must already have been spent about 100 times over. It is just ridiculous.