Financial Services Reforms

Debate between Richard Fuller and Andrew Griffith

Tuesday 11th July 2023 Commons Chamber

[Andrew Griffith]

We have published today a consultation, and I hope the hon. Lady will feel that she can raise points during that. My hon. Friend the Minister responsible for pensions will always be happy to undertake engagement with the sector. Needless to say, we believe that we have the right balance of risk. The hon. Lady talks about volatility in the gilt market. That is one of the reasons we are so focused on not making unfunded spending commitments. The last thing that pensioners or the wider economy need is Labour’s £28 billion unfunded spending plans.

[Richard Fuller (North East Bedfordshire) (Con)]

I welcome the announcement of these reforms, but will the Chancellor and the Minister look further at two consequential areas? First, to make the most of the newly available capital, this country needs to attract the world’s best innovators, insurgents and entrepreneurs. The Labour party has already said that it does not want them here and will change tax policy to make sure they look to other countries. This Government need to come forward with measures that say, “We want the best and the brightest to come to the UK.”

Secondly, to make the most of these reforms, we need to ensure that our businesses can work speedily and with clarity. That means that regulators need to focus on what our companies are doing with these reforms, as well as protecting customers and consumers. Will my hon. Friend look at what further measures we can take on regulatory reform?

[Andrew Griffith]

The work of regulatory reform to make this country globally competitive and an attractive place to invest is never done, as my hon. Friend knows. He will also know that we are seeing right now the fruits of the Prime Minister’s vision and strategy, with firms such as OpenAI and Andreessen Horowitz—two of the leading technology firms changing our world—both choosing in recent weeks the United Kingdom out of the entire rest of the world as the place to do business.

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Richard Fuller and Andrew Griffith

Tuesday 20th June 2023 Commons Chamber

[Andrew Griffith]

Not for the first time, the Chair of the Treasury Committee is on the money in her understanding of what is driving the markets, and in her advocacy and championing of the fact that our lending banks need to do a good job not just for mortgage holders, but also for savers. I am happy to meet her to talk about how we can ensure that they do the best job they can.

[Richard Fuller (North East Bedfordshire) (Con)]

In his earlier reply the Minister talked about mortgages in the United States. He will know that in the United States it is common to fix a mortgage for 15 or 30 years, which gives certainty about monthly repayments and can of course be refinanced if mortgage rates go down over the term of the mortgage. I understand that the UK Treasury looked at the UK mortgage markets and at introducing long-term fixed rates, and found that at that time there was not much potential. Will he consider looking at that again?

Silicon Valley Bank

Debate between Richard Fuller and Andrew Griffith

Monday 13th March 2023 Commons Chamber

[Andrew Griffith]

That is, with respect, the whole point: it was a separate subsidiary. It did have a separate banking licence here and it did participate in the regulators’ stress tests here. There is risk in any financial system. What this House and our diligent regulators are focused on is achieving the right balance of risk. From time to time there will—as there was with the failure of the bank in the US—be factors that lead to challenges in any risk-based system, notwithstanding the good work by the regulators and the stress tests having been applied.

[Richard Fuller (North East Bedfordshire) (Con)]

I draw the attention of the House to my historical entries in the Register of Members’ Financial Interests as an adviser to a technology venture fund and as a board member of a number of portfolio companies, many of which will have had financing arrangements with Silicon Valley Bank, HSBC and other financial institutions.

On behalf of the technology businesses in Bedfordshire, I add my thanks to the Minister and his team for their swift response over the weekend. He will be aware, however, of general concerns about global liquidity for the technology sector. What is his assessment of how the SVB experience at home and abroad may exacerbate those and test the resilience of the UK tech sector? Although HSBC is a great bank—indeed, I am a customer of HSBC—Silicon Valley Bank succeeded over many years precisely because it was so closely attenuated to the needs of early stage and growth stage businesses. Will my hon. Friend consider what steps he can take to encourage the emergence of new challenger banks to repeat the successes and avoid the failures of SVB in the UK?

[Andrew Griffith]

As my hon. Friend knows, the Government are seeking to support challenger banks to make sure we have a vibrant and competitive sector. That includes looking at issues such as the level of MREL—minimum requirement for own funds and eligible liabilities—and making sure that we have proportionate banking regulation that is relevant to the risk involved. He makes important points about the culture and capabilities of SVB UK, which is why it was so important that we had to very swiftly find it a home. I have spoken today to the chief executive of HSBC, as well as to the former chief executive of SVB UK. They are both enormously excited about the future. They see this as a platform for mutual growth, taking our brilliant life sciences and technology businesses international and to a new scale. The Government will not rest until we have mobilised capital to turn us into that science superpower.

Digital Pound

Debate between Richard Fuller and Andrew Griffith

Tuesday 7th February 2023 Commons Chamber

[Andrew Griffith]

The right hon. Gentleman runs the risk, if I may say so, of confusing a particular attribute of what is a very large sector. This is not a cryptoasset; the digital pound would not have those speculative attributes. The fact that £10 in digital pounds would be fully exchangeable for £10 in His Majesty’s finest banknotes would prevent that divergence—if it did not, that would present the right hon. Gentleman with a profitable opportunity that he could use to supplement his other activities. He raises other questions, which are rightly the subject of the consultation. I extend the invitation to all parts of the United Kingdom, and we look forward to his constituents and compatriots being able to contribute.

[Richard Fuller (North East Bedfordshire) (Con)]

If I was the Minister, I do not think I would not be quite as confident in my response to the SNP Opposition spokesman: that a digital pound will not affect the pound in our pocket. However, I broadly welcome the consultation, and I am very pleased that this Minister will be overseeing it. He will be aware that during covid we went through a period of extreme authoritarianism in this country. He will also be aware of some of the risks from central bank digital currencies to individual financial freedoms—he enunciated some of them in his statement. At the end of the consultation, will the Minister therefore also look to draft a financial liberty charter that this House can vote on, to protect the freedoms that we experience with currencies today?

[Andrew Griffith]

My hon. Friend and, indeed, predecessor highlights one of the potential concerns: one is either instinctively too early or too late in bringing matters to this House. Although this is a long-term project—the consultation makes it clear that a digital pound would not be introduced before the second half of this decade—it is right that we start conversations on precisely the important matters that influence the liberty of every one of us at this moment in time. So while I will eschew his choice of words, I assure him that liberty remains paramount, which is one reason why it is very clear that any digital pound should not replace, but should sit aside, the anonymity that is currently offered by physical cash.

UK Infrastructure Bank Bill [Lords]

Debate between Richard Fuller and Andrew Griffith

Report stage
Wednesday 1st February 2023 Commons Chamber

[Andrew Griffith]

I hope the hon. Lady would never dream of trying to score cheap political points, as distinct from our good-natured and collaborative discussions in Committee. Rather than setting a new timeframe there and then, we looked at precedent in a quest for the optimal timeframe. I undertook to come back on Report and share a proposal with the House, precisely as I am doing today. Having listened and having made that determination, I can feel the warm radiation of support from the Opposition. I hope to see that good will extending to supporting the rest of the Bill without further amendment.

[Richard Fuller]

As it gets warm and huggy between the two Front Benchers, I would like to remind the Minister that I also tabled an amendment in Committee. I hope that he is feeling warm and huggy towards Government Back Benchers as well. He seems huggy, though I am not sure it is politically correct to say that any more. I want to emphasise that the Minister has been listening, which is why he has come back with the amendment. That is the right thing for him to do.

The serious part of my point is how the institutional culture of the bank is set. The Minister will know from his own experience that the first few years are very important. He says that the first review period will be seven years, and I understand that, but can he share with the House some of his thinking about how that responsibility will be balanced? I think Members on both sides of the House are concerned that we set the institutions and regulators out there a task, but then we do not have the time, the information or the control to hold them to the original principles that we have set. Does the Minister broadly agree with that? Is he comfortable with the way the legislation will now be framed?

[Andrew Griffith]

Let me assure my hon. Friend and the whole House that this institution will not lack the proper scrutiny. In that initial set-up period it will be reviewed by both the Cabinet Office and His Majesty’s Treasury. It will not lack scrutiny. It has an obligation to report annually. On some of the amendments we have discussed today, I have already procured a commitment from the bank to put more information into the public domain about its investments and their location, which Opposition Members have rightly pressed us for.

Although the bank is yet to reach its full complement of staffing and run rate of operations, it has already benefited from a serious review by the Public Accounts Committee of this House. I think it would be worth trying to correct some misapprehensions, but I do not for one moment take away the importance of regular scrutiny. We are talking about public money, and it is of the utmost importance that we engender trust as well as good value for public money.

That Public Accounts Committee report is a good and important piece of work. I absolutely commend the work of the Committee, which does a sterling job to protect the interests of taxpayers. We should always remember our duty of care when we are spending other people’s money. It is a good piece of work, and I am grateful for it. We will respond to it in the usual way through the Treasury minute process to get that on the record.

However, I want to address one or two of the points raised. The report raised concerns about governance, but this is an institution that has benefited from strong financial governance from the get-go. All deals done to date have been reviewed by the full UK Infrastructure Bank board before being approved. Because of that, early deals were also approved by HM Treasury Ministers to ensure that we protected taxpayers’ money.

I am proud, as we all should be, of the bank’s work as it continues to engage with the market and across Government, building on its first 18 months in which it has done 10 deals worth more than £1 billion of additive, incremental investment across all parts of the United Kingdom.

[Richard Fuller]

My hon. Friend has just used the magic word “additive”. Would he care to explain further, in the context of these new clauses and amendments, that the issue of additive capital is a crucial part of the bank’s responsibility? This is not just about protecting taxpayers’ money, but about attracting third-party private capital. One of the points about the proposal to spread the objectives is that it becomes harder to attract that capital when the mission of the institution is more diffuse. The more focus it has, and the more focus my hon. Friend has, the more likely we are to achieve the objective of additive capital that he has outlined so clearly.

[Andrew Griffith]

My hon. Friend is, once again, absolutely right. The principle of being additive is baked into the core charters and constitutions, as well as the steer that my colleagues and I will give.

New clause 1 would insert a provision to prevent the sale of the bank. I understand the concern that has been expressed by Members in the past, but I can reassure them that the bank is intended to be a long-lasting institution. I have detected a strong degree of consensus about the importance of this, both in Committee and here in the Chamber, just as our commitment to net zero is long-lasting and a subject of consensus. We intend the bank to be permanent; it is an essential part of the Government’s infrastructure strategy. Moreover, the new clause is simply not necessary. In the event that any future Government considered a sale of the bank—and that is not my expectation—it would require primary legislation at the time. The new clause cannot bind the House on a future occasion, and in any event it is not necessary, so I ask for it not to be pressed to a vote.

The hon. Member for Erith and Thamesmead has tabled a new clause and an amendment. New clause 2 would require the bank to publish an annual report addressing the geographical spread and ownership of bodies in which the bank invests. That is, of course, its core purpose, and I therefore do not think we need the new clause. We debated this proposal in Committee and, for the reasons that we set out then, we do not propose to accept it now.

The new clause is simply unnecessary, because the bank will already be reporting on its investments: it will publish a summary of them in its annual report and accounts. It captures data in all its deal assessments, and will be happy to make them publicly available. I have received a letter from the bank confirming that it will make publicly available the names of developers and/or sponsors of the projects it supports. It will also provide the geographical location of these projects. I feel pressed by colleagues on this matter. I have procured more information, as the hon. Lady has requested and, again, I ask for this new clause not to be pressed to a vote.

As for jobs, it is actions, not lines of statute, that count. We do not need to deliver an amendment to deliver good jobs; just ask the employees involved in the NextEnergy, Gigaclear and Fibrus investments which the bank has already supported. Every job is a good job. The bank is committed to pursuing the highest environmental, social, resilience and governance policy standards, and we do not feel that there is any added value in simply adding extra lines of statute or red tape for the sake of it, as the hon. Lady proposes. It is actions, not words, on which we are focused.

Amendment 5 asks for the bank’s objective to include reducing regional inequality and improving pay, productivity and living standards, as well as supporting supply chain resilience. However, those are already implicit in the bank’s current objective. That is the very purpose of setting up a UK infrastructure bank—the clue is in the name—and we now have a track record to show what the bank is doing to support regional and local growth.

[Richard Fuller]

Will my hon. Friend give way?

[Andrew Griffith]

I will give way one final time, but my hon. Friend will have to make it count.

[Richard Fuller]

I am not so sure about that, but I know that my hon. Friend has a lot of reading to get through. As he obviously knows, part of what is inherent in the net zero objectives is the fact that there will be an increase in supply chain resilience.

[Andrew Griffith]

My hon. Friend did indeed make his intervention count, because that is a very pertinent point. Of course, the whole purpose of the bank is infrastructure and capability building, and the commitment to regions is at its heart. Regional and local growth are among its core objectives. The more diverse infrastructure we have in all parts of this great United Kingdom, the more we are naturally adding resilience and achieving our objective. Indeed, the strategic steer set by the then Chancellor in March last year makes it clear that the bank must focus on geographic inequalities by reference to the levelling-up White Paper, which includes a comprehensive set of levelling-up objectives and measures and supports the Government’s strategic approach to levelling up. We would rather do that on a portfolio basis than investment by investment, as proposed by the hon. Member for Erith and Thamesmead.

Amendments 3 and 4, tabled by the hon. Member for Tiverton and Honiton (Richard Foord), focus on the important issue of water quality. This is an area where the Government do not need any lessons. We are taking the lead in this matter, and are taking the action that the hon. Gentleman’s party and its leader failed to take in coalition. Sometimes one detects the fervour of a convert, or even the working-out of some past guilt about their failure to take action on water.

Financial Services and Markets Bill

Debate between Richard Fuller and Andrew Griffith

Report stage
Wednesday 7th December 2022 Commons Chamber

[Andrew Griffith]

The financial services sector is central to our Government’s ambition to bolster our global competitiveness and boost growth in all parts of the United Kingdom. This Bill delivers on our ambition by seizing the opportunities of our departure from the European Union, tailoring financial services regulation to UK markets and delivering better outcomes for the economy, consumers, victims of fraud and businesses. There are many amendments for consideration today, so I will be as succinct as possible, and I look forward to having time to respond to hon. Members’ contributions later.

In Committee, I heard from colleagues on both sides of the House about the importance of holding the operationally independent regulators to account regarding their performance—in particular, that there should be regular reporting on their performance to support scrutiny, beyond just the annual report. Regulation is about not just the contents of the rulebook, but how effectively and on how timely a basis those rules are enforced and implemented.

The Government and regulators are both committed to the highest standards of operational effectiveness. That is why last week we published an exchange of letters with the regulators, making clear the intention to publish more detailed performance data in relation to their authorisation processes on a more regular basis. However, I also noted the clear consensus in Committee on the need to enhance the existing statutory provisions. In particular, I thank my hon. Friends the Members for Wimbledon (Stephen Hammond) and for North Warwickshire (Craig Tracey) for raising this important issue.

As a result, new clause 17 provides a new power for the Treasury to require the regulators to publish additional information on a more regular basis, where that is necessary to support this House’s scrutiny of their performance in discharging their general functions.

[Richard Fuller (North East Bedfordshire) (Con)]

I have seen the exchange of letters—that is very welcome—and I have read new clause 17. Both lack any specificity about what those metrics may be. I do not expect the Minister to respond now, but perhaps in his summing up, to reassure those of us on the Back Benches, he could provide some comfort about how specific he and the Treasury will get.

[Andrew Griffith]

I thank my hon. Friend who, as one of my predecessors, has made a significant contribution to getting the Bill to where it is today. I will try to indulge him, but he will also recognise that the Bill is about putting enabling powers in place, and there will be opportunities on future occasions to discuss how we deploy those.

New clause 18 introduces a requirement for the regulators to ensure that all members of their statutory panels are external and independent of the Treasury, the Bank of England and the regulators. That will codify the current approach taken by regulators, putting it in statute, building confidence in their independence and ensuring that it is maintained on a long-term basis.

New clause 19 introduces a new requirement for the regulators to publish a list of respondents to their public consultations, provided that the respondents consent. The requirement is limited to the financial services regulators and their specific statutory consultation in existing financial services legislation. New clauses 18 and 19 also address points raised by my hon. Friend the Member for North East Bedfordshire (Richard Fuller) and the hon. Member for Richmond Park (Sarah Olney).

I also note the interest of my hon. Friend the Member for Harrow East (Bob Blackman) in enhancing regulator accountability through his new clauses on a new regulators’ supervision council and ending regulators’ statutory immunity from civil damages. I understand where he is coming from, and I note that he chairs the all-party parliamentary group on personal banking and fairer financial services, but the Government’s position is that a new supervisory council would duplicate existing accountability structures. Indeed, none of the representations that I receive from industry says that the biggest thing that will help growth and competitiveness is another layer of regulators. There is also a great deal of existing accountability structures, including the role undertaken by this House and its various Committees, which is why that position was supported by the Treasury Committee in its July 2021 report. Removing the regulators’ statutory immunity from liability and damages would risk regulators over-regulating to avoid the risk of liability. There are already mechanisms for holding regulators to account, including the complaints scheme. That scheme is overseen by the independent complaints commissioner, who has powers to recommend redress.

--- Later in debate ---

[Andrew Griffith]

Fraud is of course a shared responsibility between the Treasury and my hon. Friends in the Home Office, and when it comes to the report that the hon. Member for Hampstead and Kilburn is quite rightly challenging us to produce as quickly as possible, we want that report to be right rather than quick, but we do need to bring it forward as quickly as possible. We will use the time wisely to engage with expert stakeholders, which could well include the training of which my hon. Friend speaks, and we will come forward with that early in 2023.

In addition, this Bill is a seminal moment in protecting victims of authorised push payment fraud. It will ensure swift protections for the vast majority of APP scam victims, reversing the presumption and making sure they receive swift reimbursement so that they are no longer victims of this crime. The measure enables the Payment Systems Regulator to take action across all payments systems, not just faster payments, which is where the fraud occurs most, so that it does not merely get displaced. The Government expect protections for consumers across all payments systems to keep pace with that.

[Richard Fuller]

My hon. Friend has not yet had an opportunity to talk about the Government’s initiative on stablecoins and digital currencies. Given that he has just talked about scams and some of the concerns with cryptocurrencies, is he reassured that what is in this Bill relating to stablecoins remains absolutely front and centre of the Government’s attention?

[Andrew Griffith]

I again thank my hon. Friend, who did so much work on this Bill. It is absolutely right that the Government keep an open mind to new technologies, and my hon. Friend the Member for Devizes (Danny Kruger), who is always very thoughtful, talked about this, but we have to understand the risks. While the risks to consumers of scams in the crypto-space, among others, is extremely high and has been well telegraphed, when it comes to looking at different payment systems—with the power of distributed ledger technology to solve issues such as settlement to make our financial markets cleaner, faster and more efficient—it is absolutely right that the Government consider looking at that, and we will be looking to do more in that domain.

UK Infrastructure Bank Bill [ Lords ] (Second sitting)

Debate between Richard Fuller and Andrew Griffith

Committee stage
Tuesday 22nd November 2022 Public Bill Committees

[Abena Oppong-Asare (Erith and Thamesmead) (Lab)]

It is a pleasure, Mr Bone, to serve under your chairship. It is an honour to follow the hon. Member for North East Bedfordshire. As he has highlighted, we have come to a substantial and key clause.

As the hon. Gentleman briefly stated, the clause sets out requirements for reviews of the bank’s effectiveness and impact. In particular, it states:

“The Chancellor must appoint an independent person to carry out reviews of…the effectiveness of the Bank in delivering its objectives, and…its impact in relation to climate change and regional and local economic growth (including the extent to which its investments in particular projects or types of projects have encouraged additional investment in those projects or types of project by the private sector).”

The independent person must share those reports with the Treasury, which must then publish the reports and lay a copy before Parliament. I welcome that there will be performance reviews of the bank. Given the importance of its objectives, it is right that its ability to meet its aims is evaluated. We will get to the frequency of the reports later. I am sure I do not need to reveal to Committee members that we think the current proposed frequencies are inadequate.

Amendment 14, tabled by the hon. Member for North East Bedfordshire, would add a third element to the reports: the independent person would have to consider the effectiveness and scale of private and other third-party capital attracted to investments by the bank. We have already discussed the concept of additionality—the idea that the bank should be adding value and crowding in private sector investment. Clause 9(1)(b) already makes reference to additional investment, so I am confident that that is already covered by the Bill.

[The Economic Secretary to the Treasury (Andrew Griffith)]

It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Bone. I thank my hon. Friend the Member for North East Bedfordshire for his diligence in endeavouring to ensure that the Bill properly protects taxpayers’ interests and properly mobilises the private sector investment that the country depends on. I also thank him for trying his hardest to keep Ministers and this institution to account. I would never seek to do anything to discourage him.

However, in this case, I would like to join hands with the hon. Member for Erith and Thamesmead and, regrettably, confirm that it is my view that clause 9(1)(b), which already talks about the degree to which investments in particular projects or types of projects have encouraged additional investment in those projects or types of projects by the private sector, will go a long way to accomplishing what my hon. Friend wants. I am happy to write to him on what I consider to be the effectiveness of the clause and explore whether there is some value to be added in changing it, but it is my position, as it is that of the hon. Member for Erith and Thamesmead, that clause 9(1)(b) already does that.

My hon. Friend the Member for North East Bedfordshire should be reassured that the Government are setting up this institution with great foresight as to how we keep it accountable. The mere fact that we are legislating at its inception for an independent review to be carried out is a very progressive thing. We are trying to ensure that all our arm’s length bodies are as effective as possible. Speaking personally, I think it would be an innovation for every other arm’s length body to have to have independent reviews at frequent intervals.

I hope that my hon. Friend will agree that the wording of the Bill is already sufficiently broad to cover what he is seeking and accept my assurances to explore whether it should be changed, and that he will not press his amendment to a vote.

[Richard Fuller]

I appreciate the comments by the Opposition spokesperson and, of course, my hon. Friend the Minister. My concern about subsection (1)(b) is that the focus on the extent to which investments have attracted additional private sector investment is subordinate to the effectiveness, in terms of the impact on climate change and regional and local growth. That essentially means that if there is a project that is very strong on achieving climate change goals, the bank will be perfectly happy to pursue that, even at an extended cost to the taxpayer. I hope I have not got the Minister wrong.

[Andrew Griffith]

To clarify, I do not read it as being subordinate; it is merely clarificatory that that is within scope. I thought it might be useful to put that on the record.

[Richard Fuller]

That is very helpful. With that assurance from the Minister, I am happy to withdraw my amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

--- Later in debate ---

[Andrew Griffith]

We are moving slightly away from the amendments, but I will write to all hon. Members with an update. The annual report is due to be published imminently; the hon. Member was not here this morning when I confirmed that I have signed off what I needed to do. I expect the report to be laid in the House of Commons Library in the coming days. Some 10 deals have been made so far but, because this is a subject of interest, we will ensure that everybody is aware of the deals and that we lay the annual report before the House as quickly as possible.

[Richard Fuller]

Will the Minister give way?

[Andrew Griffith]

If it is a choice, I will do it one final time. We will then move to the vote.

[Richard Fuller]

The Minister referred to coming back another time about clause 9(5). As my hon. Friend the Member for South Ribble said, when we are reviewing investments, a seven-year period, and perhaps longer, might be a reasonable period for consideration. As the hon. Member for Glasgow East said, there is logic to having a review every five years during a Parliament. To my mind, subsection (4) refers to the more essential period. Essentially, it says that we will not have our first report for seven years. My thought is that we need one more frequently than that. Will the Minister clarify whether he intends to come back to the Committee on not just subsection (5), as he said he would, but subsection (4)?

[Andrew Griffith]

With respect, these are quite different points. I do not intend to come back on subsection (4). There are many reviews. We should not confuse the additional process of bringing in an outside party and conducting an independent review. That is quite different from the normal regular accountability of publishing an annual report, disclosure, complying with the combined code, having good governance practices, the oversight of the Treasury Committee and any of the other ongoing reviews that the Government spawn all the time. This is a separate statutory independent review. It is an unusual but positive feature, and I do not propose to reopen the point, because that is the Government’s position. We thought about it, and it will take time for this entity to be operating at scale, when it is actually capable of providing a useful determination for the review.

[Richard Fuller]

I am looking expectantly across the room, but as I do not see any encouragement from Opposition Members, I beg to ask leave to withdraw the amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Amendment proposed: 21, in clause 9, page 4, line 21, leave out “7” and insert “4”.—(Abena Oppong-Asare.)

This amendment requires an initial report of the Bank’s effectiveness to take place within 4 years after the Act comes into force, rather than the current 7.

Question put, That the amendment be made.

UK Infrastructure Bank Bill [ Lords ] (First sitting)

Debate between Richard Fuller and Andrew Griffith

Committee stage
Tuesday 22nd November 2022 Public Bill Committees

[The Economic Secretary to the Treasury (Andrew Griffith)]

It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Davies. I thank Members for their work on the Committee this morning. Clause 1 is a technical clause that outlines that the company incorporated as the UK Infrastructure Bank will be referred to as “the Bank” for the purposes of the Bill, and links it in legislation to its company registration number. The clause is essential to ensure that the Bill refers to the correct legal entity. I recommend that it stand part.

Clause 1 ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Clause 2

Objectives and activities

[Richard Fuller (North East Bedfordshire) (Con)]

I beg to move amendment 10, in clause 2, page 1, line 14, at end insert

“, and

‘(c) to create long term financial returns to its shareholder(s).”

It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Davies, and to be the first Member, other than the Minister, to speak. As hon. Members look down the amendment paper, they will see that I have tabled a number of amendments. It is such a pity that so few Labour Members have bothered to show up to the Committee on such an important issue. I always thought that the Labour party thought that it was important to invest in green technologies and to level up. Clearly, the absence of Labour Members shows that that is just a paper commitment, not a real one.

This is an important Bill. Of course, in a certain regard it formalises what is already extant; however, it is important that we, as Members of Parliament, ensure that we provide the right objectives and activities to which the board and directors of the UK Infrastructure Bank should subsequently pay attention. In that regard, I have tabled two amendments to clause 2: amendments 10 and 11. If it is convenient with you, Mr Davies, I shall also speak to amendment 11.

--- Later in debate ---

[Andrew Griffith]

Perfect, Mr Davies. My hon. Friend the Member for North East Bedfordshire is not only a distinguished predecessor of mine, but is a doughty champion for the interests of the taxpayer, and we commend him for that.

We have set out in the framework that the bank must already generate a financial return as part of the company’s operating principles. As set out in the UK Infrastructure Bank’s strategic plan, that has been set at an admirable 2.5% to 4% by the end of 2025-26. The bank, as my hon. Friend said, has a triple bottom line, including a positive financial return as a requirement across its investments.

Putting that target into law—I cannot believe that my hon. Friend is an advocate of writing everything into statute; the statute is often large enough as it is without embellishing it with additional Christmas trees of prescription—could create legal problems for the bank and undermine its core purpose, given that there might from time to time be reasons outside of its control why it cannot meet the target in relation to every investment.

[Richard Fuller]

My hon. Friend is right: not everything should be written into statute, but there ought to be more clarity. Can he provide a couple of points of clarity so that I may withdraw my amendment? On the bank’s target of 2.5% to 4% return, is that a real rate of return, and above what cost of capital? And if the chief executive and the directors do not achieve that rate of return, what will be the consequences for them?

[Andrew Griffith]

I will write to my hon. Friend on the calculation of that return. The UK Infrastructure Bank is subject to the full panoply of disclosures, sanctions and accountability, not just to this place, as is appropriate, but under the Companies Act 2006 under which it is constituted. I do not believe, therefore, that there is a deficiency in that. For that reason, notwithstanding the very understandable spirit with which my hon. Friend advocates his amendment, I hope he will consider withdrawing it.

[The Chair]

Mr Fuller, do you want to withdraw the amendment?

--- Later in debate ---

[Andrew Griffith]

Clause 3 gives His Majesty’s Treasury the power to issue the bank with a strategic steer. We talked about that earlier as a mechanism by which the Government of the day can flexibly, and in an agile fashion, give the bank some direction. That steer will set out what, in the Government’s view, the bank should prioritise and focus its activities on. The strategic steer, and any revisions of it, will be required to be laid before Parliament.

The Chancellor issued the bank with its first strategic steer in March in order to inform the development of the bank’s inaugural strategic plan, which was published in June. That gave the opportunity to share an update on the Treasury’s interpretation of the bank’s strategic objectives and to clarify the definition of infrastructure that the bank should be working with. It highlighted the role that the bank can play in improving energy resilience, as well as setting out the outcome of the Treasury’s review of environmental objectives, confirming that there is significant scope in the bank’s existing objectives for it to invest in nature-based solutions.

We do not expect a steer to be issued more than once a Parliament, which will ensure that the bank has certainty in the long term to plan its investment strategy while keeping pace with Government priorities and ensuring policy alignment across infrastructure investment.

[Richard Fuller]

Can the Minister tell me whether the steer will include giving a bit more specificity to the UK Infrastructure Bank about where on the investment spectrum—emerging businesses, high-growth businesses, mature businesses—it should place the preponderance of its resources? Will the steer provide clarification from the Government to help the bank?

[Andrew Griffith]

The strategic steer is precisely an attempt to find the right balance between prescription—I understand that my hon. Friend does not seek that directly but wants to be able to command the bank to invest at particular points of the curve from time to time—and the bank’s being able to use its expertise and motivate its leadership by having a relatively broad set of parameters. We all understand that that is a careful balance, and we do not want to move it in either direction, but I agree with my hon. Friend that the strategic steer is a vehicle to achieve the purpose he seeks.

[Richard Fuller]

I do not mean to dwell too much on this issue, and I certainly do not want to irritate the Minister through my questioning, but I want to make the point that the skillsets required for the bank to be effective as an emerging-stage investor are different from those required for it to be an investor in a mature business or a high-growth business. My concern is that the bank will try to spread itself too thinly, particularly in the early stages.

[Andrew Griffith]

My hon. Friend makes a very wise and informed point. The UK Infrastructure Bank is not the only intervention that the Government make; the British Business Bank has a broad portfolio of ways to support the sector. I hope that between the two of them, with the strategic steer perhaps being used as a vehicle to align them, every outcome that my hon. Friend seeks can be properly covered. Again, he makes a strong point about confidence and capability, and about how we resource against different types of investment.

The bank is required under the clause to update its strategic plan to ensure that it reflects the changes when a strategic steer is issued, once per Parliament. That will ensure that the will of Parliament is satisfied within a reasonable timeframe. Given that the bank is ultimately owned by the Government and the taxpayer, it is right that we retain a power to issue the bank with a strategic steer to set out its priorities, which is why I support the clause.

--- Later in debate ---

[Richard Fuller]

Well, Mr Davies, I am sorely tempted to push this to a vote, notwithstanding the comments from my hon. Friend the Minister. I understand his point and would ask that in his direction he would issues around governance. I am disappointed that Labour is not prepared to support my amendment. Therefore, rather than my valiant quest end in ignominious defeat, I beg to ask to withdraw the amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

[Andrew Griffith)]

I beg to move amendment 5, clause 7, page 3, line 23, at end insert—

“(ba) the Board is to appoint one or more directors to be responsible for ensuring that the Board considers the interests of the appropriate national authorities when making decisions;”

This amendment would require the Bank’s Board to include one or more directors with responsibility for ensuring that the Board considers the interests of the appropriate national authorities when making decisions.

The amendment sets out the requirement for UKIB’s board to appoint one or more directors to be responsible for ensuring that the interests of the devolved Administrations are considered in the board’s decision making. The work of the bank is UK-wide and it has already supported projects in each of the devolved Administrations. Given that Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland have strong interests in infrastructure investment in their respective nations, we, the Government, are keen to ensure that UKIB considers their views throughout its strategy and decision-making, including board discussions.

Co-operatives, Mutuals and Friendly Societies Bill

Debate between Richard Fuller and Andrew Griffith

Friday 28th October 2022 Commons Chamber

[The Economic Secretary to the Treasury (Andrew Griffith)]

It is always a pleasure to follow the hon. Member for Hampstead and Kilburn (Tulip Siddiq). May I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Thirsk and Malton (Kevin Hollinrake), who has joined us on the Front Bench this morning?

I congratulate the hon. Member for Preston (Sir Mark Hendrick) on reaching Second Reading with his Bill and on the committed and passionate advocacy that he and his team have shown on behalf of the mutuals sector. It takes a team effort to get things done, as my colleagues could sometimes benefit from remembering, and this is no exception. I pay tribute to my predecessor, my hon. Friend the Member for North East Bedfordshire (Richard Fuller), for his hard work over the summer, with officials, to bring us to this important moment. I also thank the hon. Member for Cardiff North (Anna McMorrin), who started the ball rolling; it is delightful that she was able to join us today. As the hon. Member for Hampstead and Kilburn says, this is a cross-party endeavour, and it is all the stronger for it.

The fantastic speeches from Members across the House have brought to life the tapestry of co-operatives and mutuals and their contribution to society across the United Kingdom. We heard about the Darlington Building Society’s five-year sponsorship of the Darlington rail heritage quarter. We were reminded of Robert Owen and the origin of the Welsh co-operative movement. My hon. Friend the Member for Heywood and Middleton (Chris Clarkson) took us back to the birthplace of the co-operative movement. My hon. Friend the Member for Hastings and Rye (Sally-Ann Hart) spoke about the contribution of White Rock Neighbourhood Ventures, which is helping to build her society. My hon. Friend the Member for Devizes (Danny Kruger) made a typically thoughtful contribution; he not only auditioned for the support of the wider co-operative movement, but rooted co-operative and community values firmly in the tradition of Disraeli.

Let me say a little about the Government’s intentions for the Bill. I can confirm that we will support it because we believe in, understand and recognise the contribution that the mutual model makes to society and financial inclusion, which is important to hon. Members on both sides of the House, and the diversity that it provides for the financial services sector. We have a fantastic financial services sector in this country, and mutuals are an important part of that and we wish to see them continue. The scale is often not fully understood, but Royal London is the largest mutual life insurance, pensions and investment company in the UK, and has assets under management of £164 billion—8.8 million policies in force. Therefore, as well as contributing to their communities up and down the United Kingdom, mutuals are also a very important part of our financial sector.

We heard, too, from my hon. Friend the Member for North Devon (Selaine Saxby) about Parracombe, from my hon. Friend the Member for Bosworth (Dr Evans) about the contribution being made by the Hinkley and Rugby Building Society, and from my hon. Friend the Member for Warrington South (Andy Carter). This shows the real contribution that these organisations make.

Let me make some progress on the Bill itself. The Government see this private Member’s Bill as a valuable attempt to build on progress, and further support the mutual model by granting His Majesty’s Treasury the power to make changes to what co-operatives, mutual insurers and friendly societies are able to do under legislation.

The House will note that the final Bill is more focused compared with the original long title. Allow me to briefly set out what we aim to achieve through the Bill. The Bill will allow co-operatives, mutual insurers and friendly societies further flexibility in determining for themselves the best strategies for their business relating to surplus capital. More specifically, this allows the Treasury to create regulations to provide these mutuals with the option to restrict the distribution of surplus capital—defined as equity minus members’ shareholdings and share interest—to their members on solvent dissolution of the mutual, or on the sale or conversion of the mutual to a company. The Bill does that by providing the power to create regulations to allow co-operatives, mutual insurers, and friendly societies to choose to adopt legal restrictions on the use of their assets. The intention is that, where the members choose to adopt these restrictions, the use of the assets would be limited to specific purposes in line with the purpose of the mutual society.

The Government anticipate that this will provide additional safeguards against demutualisation for those societies that choose to adopt the so-called “asset lock”. The Government understand that many here today were motivated by the proposed sale and demutualisation of LV= in 2021. Although, ultimately, that sale did not go through, because the vote in favour of selling was not backed by a sufficient proportion of members, we understand that it is right to interrogate the demutualisation process and consider the case for reform.

Voluntary asset locks—to prevent the distribution of legacy assets on the dissolution, sale, or conversion of a mutual—are already successfully adopted and freely entered into by co-operatives, mutual insurers, and friendly societies. The aim of these voluntary asset locks is to limit the financial incentives that many believe sit behind demutalisation processes. For example, many mutual entities have adopted “charitable assignment clauses” into their rules. This determines that any capital surplus on the dissolution, conversion, or sale has to go to a nominated charitable cause and not to the members at that moment in time. Within this, it is an established practice for mutuals to adopt high voting thresholds when members are deciding on decisions that affect the future strategic direction of the mutual.

We think these aims are laudable, but what the Government want to do is to build on the safeguards already in place to preserve the mutual movement. By placing an ironclad guarantee in legislation, we aim to support mutuals to make these locks harder to unpick in the future so that a mutual’s funds continue to be used for their social purpose and the social contract with its members and future members continues to be honoured, where the members choose to implement it.

By bringing forward this legislation, we are granting these efforts with a statutory footing should a mutual and its members decide that this is the best route for them. The optionality of the statutory asset lock is key, for it leaves the decision on the future of a mutual in the hands of mutuals and their members. Throughout, we have been guided by the core value of what it is to be mutual—with the interests of their members and communities at the heart of what they do.

If possible, I would like to go further: in alignment with the spirit in which the hon. Member for Preston has introduced this Bill, we are exploring the options for delivering reviews of key legislation underpinning the sector, including engagement with the Law Commission to help us to finalise our approach. I cannot go further than that today, as my hon. Friend the Member for North East Bedfordshire pressed me to, but that is something we are looking at and will move forward with.

[Richard Fuller]

I am very grateful to my hon. Friend for the opportunity to press him again. As he makes these considerations, will he commit from the Dispatch Box that, at Committee stage, he will come forward with the framework of the recommendations and, if he is minded to pursue this with the Law Commission, what issues it might cover?

Better Jobs and a Fair Deal at Work

Debate between Richard Fuller and Andrew Griffith

Wednesday 12th May 2021 Commons Chamber

[Richard Fuller (North East Bedfordshire) (Con)]

It was an engaging speech by the hon. Member for City of Chester (Christian Matheson), and he made some important specific points that I am sure the Government will bear in mind. I wonder, however, whether he will accept this more fundamental point. In the 2019 election, when the country was looking for a person who could identify opportunities as the country went through substantial changes to its economic relationships by leaving the European Union, and a person who had the ambition and drive to fulfil those opportunities, it chose my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister. As we reflect on the elections last week, will he also accept that although there was a substantial amount of support for the successful vaccine roll-out, the Prime Minister and the Chancellor’s support for such a vast array of activity across Government was also rewarded by the public? Those fundamental points of trust in the Prime Minister and in his ambitions for this country are resonating with the public and are reflected in the Queen’s Speech, which I wholeheartedly support.

[Andrew Griffith (Arundel and South Downs) (Con)]

Does my hon. Friend agree that the only person to whom the hon. Member for City of Chester (Christian Matheson) should be directing his comments in respect of fire and rehire, as the events of the weekend showed, is the right hon. and learned Member for Holborn and St Pancras (Keir Starmer)?

[Richard Fuller]

My hon. Friend, as is customary, makes a poignant point, which I am sure will be reflected on with glee by those on the Opposition Front Bench.

The longer context for this Queen’s Speech is that, since 2010, the thread all the way through has been a focus on the value of work. In the first period of 2010 to 2015, a lot of that was about benefit reform, so that people who had to go out to work did not look at their neighbours and think, “Well, they’ve got a better life living on benefits”. The second part was the Conservative Government implementing a living wage commitment—a commitment this Government continue with. The third, which we are seeing in this Queen’s Speech, is the identification that ultimately what we are looking for is a lifelong commitment from the Government to support people’s skills development.

What is so exciting about the skills and post-16 education Bill is that it is starting to focus on potential. It does not matter who someone is, where they are, how rich they are or how poor they are; what matters is what their potential is for this country. However, I would urge the Government to look at three ways of going a bit further. First, can we broaden even further the scope of what we understand as potential? As we have seen, potential can come in academic potential and it can come in skills potential, but it can also come in commercial potential and it can come in artistic and creative potential. Where are the mechanisms—creative mechanisms—for those talents and for unlocking that potential?

Secondly, can we also get a better balance of where the risks for taking part in these programmes comes? At the moment, all of the financial risk lies on the person choosing what they decide to do. As a paper by Peter Ainsworth on the education, enterprise and giving-back grant suggests, institutions should have more skin in the game. There should be a sharing of risks between the institutions that are trying to tap into and unlock that potential and the individual who is seeking such forward movement.

Thirdly, why is there not an opportunity now to have more competition both between types of providers for Government resources—between the academic track or the skills track, and potentially the commercial track or the artistic track—and within those types, between universities, based on an accountability of how well institutions are fulfilling potential?

There are a number of measures in the speech that are particularly relevant to the people of Bedfordshire. The commitments on air pollution will be particularly relevant to people in Sandy and other parts of the community along the A1 corridor. I welcome, cautiously, the Government’s obesity strategies, but I worry that some of the measures may inadvertently harm certain producers, including Jordans, which is a manufacturer of healthy cereals in my constituency.

I firmly welcome the Government’s commitments to drug and alcohol rehabilitation in criminal justice, which was such a crucial part of the successful election of Festus Akinbusoye as police and crime commissioner of Bedfordshire last week. On planning, I echo the concerns that other Members have mentioned.

I do think the Government need to make sure that the 1 million existing approvals are actioned—that there is a tax and build schedule—otherwise the Government will not just face a northern powerhouse group on the Back Benches, but have a southern alliance to tackle.

Finally, looking across the Atlantic, one wonders how powerful countries and empires end. There are two substantial ways they do so in peacetime: the first is that Governments spend too much, and then tax their populations beyond their tolerance to take it; and the second is that Governments debase their currency, and then inflation lets rip and destroys savings. Let us make sure that, as a fundamental part of this, we maintain and hold up the probity of public finance.