Oral Answers to Questions

Richard Bacon Excerpts

Thursday 9th January 2020 Commons Chamber

[Steve Barclay]

The hon. Lady says that as if she supported the Bill in October, but she did not. She did not support it when those things were in the clause, and now she is lamenting that they are out of the clause that she did not support. The reality is that the purpose of the withdrawal agreement Bill is to implement the international agreement that the Prime Minister has reached with the European Commission. Of course it is for the House, in the course of its business, to determine what standards it wants on workers’ rights, the environment and other areas. The Prime Minister was clear in the manifesto that we are committed to high standards in those areas. I think that is something that the hon. Lady and I can agree on.

[Mr Richard Bacon (South Norfolk) (Con)]

Does the Secretary of State agree that, contrary to what the hon. Member for Bedford (Mohammad Yasin) said, we need dynamic alignment like a hole in the head? The purpose of Brexit is to enable us to make our own laws and rules, set our own taxes and chart our own course.

[Steve Barclay]

My hon. Friend has championed Parliament’s taking control of these issues for many years, and he is absolutely right: it is for this House to determine the standards, and we should have confidence in its ability to do so.

Compliance with the European Union (Withdrawal) (No. 2) Act 2019

Richard Bacon Excerpts

Thursday 26th September 2019 Commons Chamber

[James Duddridge]

No, not at all. The hon. Gentleman is right to say that the timetable is highly constrained, but after three and a half years we have only ourselves to blame collectively as a House.

[Mr Richard Bacon (South Norfolk) (Con)]

Nearly every question from the Opposition has included the word “if”. Does the Minister feel that it is unreasonable to expect him to have a crystal ball and predict what situation this country will face on 19 October, and what complying with the law will require? Is it better just to accept his assurance that the Government will obey the law?

[James Duddridge]

I thank my hon. Friend for that question. A lot could change between now and 19 October, and providing clarity that we will obey the law is clearer than picking specific laws and saying how we will obey them.

EU Exit Day Amendment

Richard Bacon Excerpts

Wednesday 27th March 2019 Commons Chamber

[Mr Walker]

I suspect that my right hon. Friend may well welcome the chance of that shorter period, but I think the answer is simply that that was the decision reached by the European Council and agreed by the Council and the UK.

Put simply, the instrument does not set the date of our departure, which has already been agreed. It reflects that in domestic law. While the instrument itself is straightforward, its effect will apply across the domestic statute book, so it is important that I set out the details of what it will do—this comes to the point of my right hon. Friend the Member for Gainsborough (Sir Edward Leigh). I have explained this to my ministerial counterparts in the Scottish Government and the Welsh Assembly, setting out why the UK Government are taking the instrument forward.

[Mr Richard Bacon (South Norfolk) (Con)]

My right hon. Friend the Member for Wokingham (John Redwood) did not ask the Minister to restate the position. He asked why the European Council went for the earlier date, rather than 30 June. Why did it do that?

[Mr Walker]

My understanding is that that was the Council’s view of when we would have to give notice that we would be holding European elections, if we were staying in for longer, and that is why it set that date as the date by which we would have to have made our mind up as to whether we are leaving. But that is for the European Council to determine. I am not a spokesman for it.

Currently, major changes to our domestic statute book reflecting our exit from the European Union are due to take effect on exit day, which is defined in the EU withdrawal Act as 11 pm on 29 March, despite the extension terms that have been agreed at international level. These changes apply across a huge number of policy areas, from emissions trading to Europol. All these changes are designed to ensure that our statute book works when we leave the European Union, and all are due to take place on exit day. This definition has effect across the whole UK statute book. Now that an extension to article 50 has been agreed in EU and international law, we need to amend that date to reflect the new point at which the EU treaties cease to apply.

--- Later in debate ---

[Mr Richard Bacon]

I never knew we were going to have such a treat this evening, so it is a great pleasure to have the opportunity to ask my hon. Friend a question. It so happens that I have a copy of the European Union (Withdrawal) Act 2018 with me. It does say in schedule 7—[Interruption.] Actually, Mr Speaker, it was completely by chance, because I had no idea that my hon. Friend was going to dilate on this matter. I heard the hon. Member for Brent North (Barry Gardiner) saying, first of all, the word “deviation” as if this were some sort of BBC panel show. Then I heard him, from a sedentary position, saying that he had no idea what my hon. Friend was talking about. It turns out that schedule 7(14) states very clearly:

“A statutory instrument containing regulations under section 20(4)”—

for the benefit of the hon. Member for Brent North, that is the section of the Act by which exit day is changed, so it is hardly a deviation—

“may not be made unless a draft of the instrument has been laid before, and approved by a resolution of, each House of Parliament.”

It occurs to me—I invite my hon. Friend to agree with me—that my hon. Friend is doing an enormous service to this House.

[Sir William Cash]

I am extremely indebted to my very good and very close hon. Friend. I am so glad that he has made that point, because I am simply trying to do what I have always tried to do, which is to get past all the fog and ask the central question, which bears on the issue of the sovereignty of this House in relation to that European Union (Referendum) Act 2015, which gave the right to the British people.

The 2018 Act, to which my hon. Friend refers, is the moment in time when we made that decision in this House. Even my right hon. and learned Friend the Member for Rushcliffe (Mr Clarke) voted for the Third Reading of that Act. This was, therefore, a decision taken by this Parliament. So forget the fact that these indicative votes going on at the moment, which I regard as a parliamentary bag of liquorice allsorts, are an obfuscation of the fundamental issues. The draft regulations published a few days ago are not in accordance with the 2018 Act, since they do not change exit day to a particular date. Instead, they purport to change exit day to two different dates—the point Lord Pannick referred to—depending on whether the House does or does not pass a resolution that satisfies the European Council decision. I emphasise the words “does not satisfy the European Council decision”, Mr Speaker.

I have raised this matter repeatedly. We have been supplicating the EU. We have given in to the EU. My European Scrutiny Committee last March published a very good report in which we pointed out that we should not accept the terms of reference dictated to us by the European Union. That is where it all went wrong. It went wrong when the European Union (Withdrawal) Act was overtaken by the Chequers agreement, in a pre-planned operation inside No. 10 driven by the Prime Minister and her advisers, the effect of which was to undermine the repeal of the 1972 Act. I say “pre-planned” because the 2018 Act received Royal Assent on 26 June and within 10 days the Chequers proposals had come forward, which morphed into the withdrawal agreement and article 4, the effect of which is to make us subjugated to the rule making of the European Union. That is what went on and it was done deliberately. It was going on while we were actually passing the withdrawal Act itself. I would describe it as a monstrous deceit on the British people.

I will go further. The course taken by the Government in seeking to pre-empt the affirmative resolution has definitely contaminated the lawfulness of their actions. It has, at a minimum, created serious doubts about the legal situation. I draw attention, for those who would be interested, to the views of the retired Lord Justice of Appeal, Sir Richard Aikens, who is entirely clear on this question.

I wrote a letter to the Prime Minister yesterday. I have not yet had a reply. She has not, in fact, answered my question about the ministerial code, which I have asked twice. As far as I am concerned, this statutory instrument should be voted down. I invite the Attorney General to explain whether, as a matter of fact—irrespective of whether he is prepared to disclose his advice, which I think he should publish—the Prime Minister did consult him, as required under the ministerial code.

--- Later in debate ---

[Mr Vaizey]

rose—

[Mr Bacon]

rose—

[Mr Speaker]

I call Mr Ed Vaizey.

--- Later in debate ---

[Mr Richard Bacon (South Norfolk) (Con)]

This Government have had half the time it took to fight the second world war, two thirds of the time it took to fight the first world war, and the entire length of the Kennedy Administration, during which time the groundwork was laid for a successful moonshot. The idea that we need more time is nonsense. The Government have had plenty of time, they have not used it well enough, and we should just leave.

Draft Challenges to Validity of EU Instruments (EU Exit) Regulations 2019

Richard Bacon Excerpts

Monday 18th March 2019 General Committees

[Mr Richard Bacon (South Norfolk) (Con)]

It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Davies. I have a couple of quick questions for the Minister. I completely understand the Government’s desire to achieve legal certainty, which is, as he himself said, the purpose of the regulations.

Paragraph 2.1 of the explanatory memorandum clearly states:

“On exit day, the EU Withdrawal Act makes clear that there will be no right in domestic law on or after exit day to challenge any retained EU law on the basis that, immediately before exit day, an EU instrument was invalid.”

Is that designed to oust a challenge on any other grounds? It sounds suspiciously like an ouster clause. The Minister will know from history that the courts in this country are reluctant to entertain Governments’ attempts to remove the purview of the courts entirely, and it does sound as if that is exactly what the provision is trying to do. For example, the grounds that the Minister gave include a lack of competence, an infringement of an essential procedural requirement or a misuse of powers.

If an applicant brought before a UK court after exit day an application in relation to a piece of EU law that had been completely transferred—not an application pending in the way that is described here, but rather one that only started after exit day—and the removal of the purview of the CJEU had taken effect, and the application related, for example, to a breach of the rules of natural justice, which a court would certainly wish to entertain, or to a Minister misinforming himself as to his powers, including on an EU law that had been transferred to the UK statute book and had not been challenged hitherto, or in relation to any infringement of procedural requirements, which I suppose would include the rules of natural justice, what would be the Government’s attitude to such an application? Are the Government trying to say that the courts could not entertain such an application? I hope not, and the Minister is shaking his head.

Secondly and finally, if there were a case where a court found itself saying, “This is an instance where we would recognise the validity of the applicant’s claims if we could, but thanks to this regulation we can’t, so we won’t”, what would then be the Government’s policy?

[Vernon Coaker]

I think I agree with the hon. Gentleman regarding the questions that he has just asked.

I will say this again, and I say it in every SI Committee that I am on: there are numerous SIs that pass into law that have huge implications and people come to our surgeries and say, “When did this happen?” It usually turns out that it was under some SI, rather than a piece of legislation discussed in the main Chamber.

I am not a lawyer, but I will pick up on one or two things that the hon. Member for South Norfolk asked about. The Minister may say, “I have already answered this”, but for the benefit of those who might read these proceedings and non-lawyers, it would be helpful for us to understand better.

I take the point that the Minister made, when he very helpfully read out the court case numbers, which I failed to write down; I did write down the topics. But this is the point: those cases will be dealt with, because they have already begun. I understand that, because these cases were already entered into by the courts beforehand, so there will be an opportunity for our courts to make a judgment on them after exit day—should that happen.

I have no idea what challenges there are around therapeutic bandages or artificial body parts or anti-dumping duties on footwear from China, but I would hesitate to say that these issues are irrelevant or of no consequence, partly because in numerous SI Committees seemingly impenetrable things happen and impenetrable regulations are passed, and then sooner or later somebody comes to one of our surgeries and says, “You’ll never guess what: I have a footwear business and I do a lot of trade with China, and something has happened so that it’s been declared invalid and I can’t now do it.” I have no idea. I am not saying it is wrong or right; I just do not know.

However, I have a couple of questions and it would be helpful if the Minister could answer them. I ask the Minister’s pardon if this is obvious, but it is not obvious to me: is this a no-deal SI, or is it just an SI that is passed whatever the consequence or outcome, whether we leave with a deal or no deal? Is this in lieu of a no-deal Brexit?

Normally, under our constitution, the courts can interpret the law, but as I understand it this measure will allow the courts to strike a law down. So what part of our constitution is the Minister saying allows us to strike down a law? Can he more properly explain the operation of retained European law after exit? I thought it was just, “This is the law, these are the laws we don’t want, these are the laws we do want, so they become part of our law—full stop.” Now, if I am not a lawyer, somebody needs to explain what “retained” means, because what I have just said is what I would have assumed it meant.

[Mr Bacon]

That is my understanding as well—that retained EU law simply becomes part of domestic law. My questions to the Minister were around the case of something that—in these terms and for these purposes now, after exit day—would no longer be termed in retained EU law but simply for these purposes domestic law, and whether, as this purports to suggest, it would oust the ability of an applicant to get a court to entertain whether this was in breach, or whether the powers that the Minister was using, or purporting to use, under that—for these purposes—domestic law were wrong and invalid, and the Minister was acting inappropriately.

[Vernon Coaker]

I agree with that. It is very well put and is a question for the Minister to answer, because it goes to the heart of what we are asking.

My final point in this brief contribution is important. What happens if the CJEU—I need to be careful here or I will confuse myself—finds a pre-exit provision of EU law to be invalid? It will cease to be EU law, but will it continue here? The CJEU will have found an existing piece of EU law, which, presumably, we have retained, invalid, so it will not operate in the rest of Europe, but, because it is retained, we will not have the opportunity—or will we?—to strike it down. Or will it simply continue here, even though it has been struck down in the rest of the EU, if the Minister understands me?

--- Later in debate ---

[Chris Heaton-Harris]

I thank the various members of the Committee and the shadow spokesman for their points, questions and contributions. I attempted in my opening speech to be relatively brief. Unfortunately, some of the questions raised are relatively complicated, so I am afraid my concluding remarks might take slightly longer.

I will go through some of the points raised. To give an example, one case that I mentioned was partially successful, and I should go into more detail so that people can understand exactly what sorts of case have been subject to validity changes in the past. The one that was partially successful was a tax case submitted by the first-tier tax tribunal. The case concerned the validity of regulations imposing anti-dumping duties on shoes containing specific leather parts. The hon. Member for Gedling is completely correct: such cases are very particular to certain Members of Parliament. I come from Northamptonshire. Shoe manufacturing is a big deal in my part of the world and the case was a big local news story at the time. The CJEU found that, although parts of the regulations were invalid, the parts imposing the anti-dumping duties were still valid, which is why the ruling was partial.

The claimant in the case, Clarks the shoemaker, a manufacturer, claimed that the EU had committed an infringement of an essential procurement requirement on the basis that the Commission had not adjudicated upon claims for market economy treatment and individual treatment by certain Chinese and Vietnamese exporting producers. The claimant argued, therefore, that the regulations imposing anti-dumping duties on specific footwear containing uppers—which, as members of the Committee will know, are the parts of the shoe that cover the toes, the top of the foot, the sides of the foot and the back of the heel—made from leather, and originating from Vietnam, China and Macao, were invalid.

The CJEU found that two EU regulations were partially invalid, but that specific requirements of regulations imposing the anti-dumping duties were still valid. In other words, the hon. Gentleman is quite correct. Although it is easy to brush over the effects of the judgments in a couple of sentences in Committee, they are quite significant judgments for big manufacturing companies across our constituencies. He and my hon. Friend the Member for South Norfolk were right to raise the questions that they did.

The first question is, does the measure reduce access to justice in certain ways? No, it does not. It allows cases begun before exit to continue largely as at present. Without regulations, it would not be possible to continue a validity challenge begun before exit. The decision that it will not be possible to challenge the law on the basis of validity after exit was taken and voted upon by Parliament when the EU withdrawal Act passed.

Another question was, what will happen if the CJEU rules after exit that EU legislation was invalidly made? Will that invalid legislation remain on the UK statute book? The answer is yes—decisions by the CJEU will not affect retained European law. The hon. Member for Gedling asked what EU retained law is. It is a snapshot of all European law taken the day we leave the European Union. It is being done by the National Archives, and will be accessible to every person in this country. I have been to visit the programme that is doing this. I promise the Committee that not only is it on budget, on time and able to do its job; it is ready to go now. There will therefore be a body of retained EU law that people can interrogate from their homes, should they wish to do so.

Even if the CJEU decides to void legislation after exit day, that law will remain on the UK statute book as retained EU law, because the European Union (Withdrawal) Act will take a snapshot of EU law as it stands on exit day, and all law on the UK statute book at that time will be valid as a result of its being made law under the Act. After exit, it will be for Parliament to decide whether and how to diverge from EU law, or indeed perhaps to take note of what might have happened at the CJEU, and to take action that flows from that.

Another question—raised, I think, by the hon. Member for Sheffield Central—was, why do the regulations not go further and include provision for future rulings of the CJEU to be taken into account, or provision for there to be consideration of future rulings? The decision to extinguish validity challenges domestically is coherent with the Government’s intention to re-establish UK parliamentary supremacy over UK law after exit. After exit day, it should and will be for Parliament to decide how, when and whether the UK should modify retained EU law.

[Mr Bacon]

The Minister is being very clear and has, to some extent, put my mind at rest. I have no issue with the idea that our domestic courts cannot challenge the validity of EU retained law—for these purposes, domestic law. In any case, an ability on their part to do that would seem to me to be a dodgy and suspicious foreign import to English jurisprudence, so I have no problem with that at all. I suppose what I am really trying to get at is simply whether I am correct in supposing that the SI does not purport in any way to limit at all the ambit of the judicial review of administrative action of any law, including the law to be imported as EU retained law into domestic law.

[Chris Heaton-Harris]

I can absolutely give my hon. Friend that assurance.

Returning to why the regulations do not go further, the statutory instrument could not act in contradiction to the explicit intention of the withdrawal Act. It could not, for example, make provisions so that UK judges followed validity rulings of the CJEU, or so that future rulings of the CJEU on validity would mean that retained EU law was invalid.

I hope that I have answered a couple of the questions. I am wary in that I might not have tackled everybody’s questions, so, as I begin to conclude, if I have missed anybody I would very much appreciate it if they let me know. My hon. Friend the Member for South Norfolk talked about an ouster clause. We have copied the CJEU grounds, and cannot currently challenge validity for any other reason. I hope that he is now completely satisfied on those grounds.

The regulations aim to ensure the effective continued delivery of justice as we leave the European Union. As such, they are an important part of the Government’s preparations for the UK’s withdrawal from the European Union. As such, I commend them to the Committee.

Question put and agreed to.

Resolved,

That the Committee has considered the draft Challenges to Validity of EU Instruments (EU Exit) Regulations 2019.

Leaving the EU: Economic Analysis

Richard Bacon Excerpts

Tuesday 30th January 2018 Commons Chamber

[Mr Baker]

As I believe the record will show, I have said multiple times that in all scenarios in this economic analysis growth is forecast. So it is good news for the hon. Lady and for the country that in all of the forecasts—in all of the circumstances of the economic analysis—growth is forecast. She brings up the issue of the supply chain, so I also say to her that we are of course apprised of the imperatives of complex international supply chains, not just between the UK and Europe, but around the whole world. In particular, I draw attention to provisions in the Union customs code for inward and outward processing rules, which should assist manufacturers in her constituency.

[Mr Richard Bacon (South Norfolk) (Con)]

Were the economists involved in these forecasts the same ones who said we would lose half a million jobs if people voted for Brexit? Since the referendum we have, in fact, gained 350,000 jobs.

[Mr Baker]

I am not able to give my hon. Friend exactly that information, but perhaps some of the economists are the same ones. In my experience, civil servants, at all levels, dutifully carry out the instructions of the Government, and I am sure they are doing that in this case.

Oral Answers to Questions

Richard Bacon Excerpts

Thursday 27th April 2017 Commons Chamber

[Mr Speaker]

I thought we were about to hear the mellifluous tones of the hon. Member for South Norfolk (Mr Bacon), who has periodically bobbed and then ceased to do so, but we are gratified if we are going to hear the hon. Gentleman.

[Mr Richard Bacon (South Norfolk) (Con)]

I am grateful to you, Mr Speaker. I had earlier wished to ask about the pig industry, a very important industry across East Anglia. Can the Minister tell us what prospects he sees for the industry? It is an industry that does not have subsidy from the public purse, but which has made huge gains, particularly in China where the pigs’ ear deal added £5 per carcass? What prospects does he see for this important sector?

[Mr Jones]

Given my hon. Friend’s surname, I am sure that he will be declaring his interest. I assure him that the Government fully understand the importance of pigmeat to the economy of this country. I have had a meeting with the National Pig Association, and I am glad to say that it is very positive about the future.