Housing and Planning Bill (Tenth sitting)

Richard Bacon Excerpts

Tuesday 1st December 2015 Public Bill Committees

[Mr Thomas]

Sir Alan, it is good to have the opportunity to serve once again under your chairmanship.

The aspiration to own one’s home is held by the vast majority of those who are currently renting.

[Mr Richard Bacon (South Norfolk) (Con)]

Hear, hear!

[Mr Thomas]

That aspiration is one that I strongly support but I think that support should be through the supply of housing for sale. I argue gently to the Committee and in particular to the hon. Member for South Norfolk, who started so well by agreeing with me, that the additional supply of homes for sale should never be at the expense of affordable homes for rent. In the context of the amendment, that is homes for rent for the most vulnerable.

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[Mr Bacon]

Does the hon. Gentleman not understand that the word “affordable” is itself deeply laden and tendentious? The reason things are not affordable is that there are not enough of them. The reason that there are not enough of them is that there is not enough supply.

[Mr Thomas]

The hon. Gentleman begins to make my point for me. If he observes a little patience but continues to listen with the enthusiasm he has shown thus far, I will come to exactly that point.

I should allude to some of the difficulty that the Opposition, the hon. Gentleman and some of his friends, and those listening and watching our proceedings, are facing in being able to scrutinise the terms of right to buy. In response to the points of order I raised last week about the lack of information about right to buy, the Minister referred us to the offer details on the National Housing Federation website. When I had the chance to read that information, it made clear that the Government and the National Housing Federation and its members would work together on the implementation of an agreement and an operational document would be published. To date I can find no evidence of that operational document having been published. I look forward to the Minister giving clarity on that. It is particularly important in the context of the pilot schemes that have been launched. We simply do not know the terms on which those housing associations are piloting the offer of the right to buy.

In the context of the amendment, we do not know whether sheltered and specialist housing are excluded, or whether in the context of amendment 146 other forms of housing will be excluded in line with the original offer document. We do not know how long the pilots will run before other housing associations are required to join in. We do not know how the deal will be financed, given that it will take some time for vacant high-value council homes to be sold off to provide the finance to compensate housing associations.

As I indicated, we do not know whether the five pilots are operating exactly in line with the headlines that were agreed between the National Housing Federation and the Government. We do not know whether the five housing associations will be committing to replace like for like rented homes for sale with other homes for rent.

In particular, in the context of my amendment, we do not know whether the five housing associations will specifically replace any sheltered or specialist housing that is sold in a like-for-like way. In the National Housing Federation offer, which was published on its website, housing associations expected the Government to work with them to put in place measures to limit fraudulent activity. That is surely particularly important in the context of vulnerable adults who, in some cases, will be in sheltered or specialist housing provided by housing associations.

It would have been helpful for the Minister to have published the operational document to which he, presumably, and the National Housing Federation remain committed. Presumably, within that document, there would have been information on how action to stop such fraudulent activity might have taken place. One of the concerns raised in evidence to the Communities and Local Government Committee by one of the housing associations was the worry that family members or friends might try to persuade someone to buy their sheltered housing property when, in fact, they may not really want to do that. It is presumably that type of activity that the Government might want to stop. It would have been helpful to have the detail of the types of measures that they were going to put in place to stop that.

The offer document also anticipates the Government putting in place arrangements to manage the financial costs of the right to buy, to ensure that the cost of sales does not exceed the value of the receipts received, which could include an annual cap on the cost of right-to-buy discounts. Does the Minister remain committed to that in general, as part of the offer and in the context of sheltered and specialised housing? Will it apply in the context of the five pilot housing associations? It would be helpful to hear a little more detail.

The National Housing Federation offer specifically suggested seven categories where housing associations might exercise discretion over sales. Again, it would be helpful to hear from the Minister on whether, as part of the deal that he has agreed with the housing associations that are piloting this deal—the London & Quadrant Housing Trust, or L&Q, Riverside, Saffron, Sovereign and Thames Valley—the seven categories will remain the same, not least because, in the context of the amendment, one of the specific categories mentioned includes “supported housing”, as defined by part 5 of one of the previous Housing Acts. Other categories that are potentially directly related to the discussion on amendments 89 and 146 relate to properties in rural locations being excluded, properties where there are restricted covenants being excluded, and properties held in a community land trust being excluded. Again, it would be helpful to hear from the Minister whether the five piloting housing associations will continue to offer exclusions in those areas.

[Mr Thomas]

Not completely, I have to say. Although it was helpful to receive the NHF document, it would have been helpful to have received the full operational document from the Government. Why does it not satisfy my concerns? I give the example of the Greenoak Housing Association, which operates in Woking. Its chief executive gave evidence to the Communities and Local Government Committee on 4 November and noted the fact that Greenoak is a particular specialist in the supply of sheltered housing. She said:

“Around one-third of our housing is sheltered with support. We could obviously exclude them ourselves, but the difficulty would be in re-providing.”

The hon. Gentleman will be aware that, as part of the deal with the Government, the National Housing Federation committed that, where a property was excluded from a sale but a tenant wanted to buy it, housing associations would have to offer an alternative property for sale. The chief executive of Greenoak said:

“We do not see why we should be giving a portable discount for people who are in the most suitable housing for them at the current time with the support that they need.”

It would be helpful to hear from the Minister what future the Government see for housing associations that are specialists in sheltered, supported and other specialist housing. How will those housing associations deal with the issue of portable discounts and the potential requirement they face under the deal to offer another property for sale? There is a risk of that making those housing associations not financially sustainable, which I am sure the hon. Gentleman, and indeed all hon. Members, would not want to happen.

What happens when all properties owned by a housing association in one area are specialist or sheltered housing? How would the right to buy be exercised in that situation? One could understand a tenant approaching the housing association and saying, “I want to stay within Harrow because it is so well represented in Parliament,” and no doubt for other reasons. The housing association will want to do the right thing by its tenant, but it is only offering sheltered housing in that area and wants to maintain that stock. How would that situation be dealt with by the Government and housing associations?

Age UK, in its written evidence, specifically laments the failure to build more sheltered and retirement housing and to offer older people more housing options in later life. It argues:

“Based on demographic trends, specialist housing will need to increase by between 35 per cent and 75 per cent just to keep pace with demand.”

Age UK is concerned about the decline in the availability of sheltered and other forms of specialist housing for older people on low incomes.

Although I welcome the extra capital funding announced as part of the spending review for specialist housing, which I assume includes sheltered housing, the Bill must be clear about the need to exclude sheltered and other specialist housing from the right to buy in order to ensure there is not inadvertently a further decline in the provision of sheltered housing as a result of the Bill.

I support amendment 146, tabled by my hon. Friends, not least because there is increasing concern in Harrow and, indeed, other parts of London about the provision of housing that key workers are able to afford. Of course, those key workers will no doubt have the aspiration I alluded to earlier to buy a home in due course, but if that is some way off, their immediate priority will be to find a property that is affordable to rent. One thinks of careworkers, of nurses, of teaching assistants, of the cleaner for the Minister’s office and of policemen, on occasion. One wants surely to ensure that there continues to be a reasonable supply of affordable accommodation within reasonable distance of those people’s place of work.

I welcome also the National Housing Federation decision to insist that co-op housing is not included in any right to buy, but there should be additional protection on the face of the Bill. Indeed, the Housing Act 1985 approached the issue of exclusions from the right to buy by putting those exclusions on the face of the Bill. Schedule 5 to that Act lists a series of exceptions to right to buy, including—this is a particular interest of mine—

“if the landlord is a co-operative housing association.”

The amendment would replicate that provision. Surely it would be sensible to put that on the face of the Bill. In that spirit, I look forward to the Minister’s reply to the various questions I have asked and hope that the hon. Member for South Norfolk is convinced of the sensibleness of my amendment.

[Mr Bacon]

I know the hon. Gentleman struggles to emulate Cicero or Demosthenes but I feel I ought to point out that, although there is a certain dulcet quality to his delivery, it reminds me more of bagpipes. There is a certain onward droning quality. I caution him not to speak like that for so long in the early afternoon because many Conservative Members will probably fall asleep.

[Mr Thomas]

I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman. Perhaps I should caution him not to go for the expensive and well oiled lunch that perhaps is a feature of interest for him from Tuesday to Thursday. I am not quite sure that I have convinced him on this amendment and I fear that I will have to try a little harder to convince him of other issues during the course of the day.

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[Mr Bacon]

Saffron Housing Trust is the large-scale voluntary transfer housing provider in South Norfolk, which I am sure will please the hon. Member for Harrow West immensely. Last Friday, I met the chief executive of Saffron, who seemed quite relaxed about this and felt that he would be able to manage it with his organisation. He particularly pointed out that a significant number of his properties were already subject to the inherited right to buy.

[Dr Blackman-Woods]

I welcome the hon. Gentleman’s privileged access to Saffron Housing, but the rest of us, at this point in time—

[Mr Bacon]

It is not a matter of privilege. As a local Member of Parliament, it is incumbent on me to talk to important actors in my constituency. I hope that the hon. Lady does the same in hers and I assure her that if she really wanted to meet the chief executive of Saffron, I am sure he would be willing to meet her.

[Dr Blackman-Woods]

I am sure the hon. Gentleman is absolutely correct about that. However, in the short period of time since the pilots have been announced and our debate today, we have not all been able to speak to those running the pilots. Indeed, such communication as we have had suggests that they are still putting the details of the pilots together.

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[Kevin Hollinrake]

The hon. Gentleman will be aware that Shelter is not a housing association or a housing provider. I am not sure what Shelter is most of the time, but several housing associations gave evidence to our Committee. I am not sure whether he was in attendance to hear their evidence, but when my hon. Friend the Member for Croydon South asked whether the measures would result in increased housing provision, they all said that it would. The measures in the Bill will clearly increase supply and will increase the number of affordable homes to buy.

The National Housing Federation told us that the agreement allows housing associations to protect affordable homes, specialist homes and rural homes. Again, that is the question raised by the amendment. Many of the housing associations I have met outside the Committee have said that they will be selling more homes and building more homes as a result of these provisions. Riverside Housing expects a fourfold increase in the number of homes that it will sell as a result of the extension of right to buy. I absolutely support the provisions of the Bill and the clauses that the amendments seek to change.

[Mr Bacon]

I have listened with care to my hon. Friend. Did he hear the hon. Member for Greenwich and Woolwich refer to the OBR? Has he noticed that the OBR does not come out with statistics on how many shoes or chairs it thinks the economy is going to produce? It does not even come out with statistics on how much food is going to be produced and whether the supermarkets will be full or not. I am reliably informed that if someone does not eat, they eventually die, yet somehow we have enough food. Does my hon. Friend think that the central problem may be that the supply does not rise to meet demand, and does the Bill not help with that?

[Kevin Hollinrake]

Absolutely. Many of the provisions in the Bill that we have discussed, such as planning in principle for starter homes, will help to solve that problem.

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[Brandon Lewis]

The hon. Lady underlines the point I made a few moments ago. She and the Labour party simply do not understand that the housing associations themselves want to extend the right to buy. This is a voluntary agreement that the sector put to the Government, which we accepted. The amendments suggest that Opposition Members do not trust housing associations to protect their own clients. I am sorry that they feel that way. The Government trust housing associations to look after their tenants. We believe that they have their tenants’ best interests at heart and that they will use their discretion wisely.

[Mr Bacon]

My hon. Friend may be interested to know that the chief executive of Saffron said to me the other day—he was musing, I must say—that associations should perhaps think of building properties for affordable rent, with a view to people who have been loyal tenants for a long time having the right to buy at some point in future. Is that not a more innovative approach, which more housing associations should adopt?

[Brandon Lewis]

My hon. Friend outlines something that is coming in across the housing association sector. I have spoken to chief executives and others who work in the sector, and they want to introduce new and innovative ideas to deliver more housing and give their tenants a stairway into ownership. Saffron is a really good example of an innovative association. Clearly, as we heard earlier, Opposition Members are not speaking to housing associations much at the moment and are missing out on some of the exciting things associations are talking about and want to do.

Housing associations are professional organisations that operate according to sound commercial and social principles, and we should let them get on with delivering the part of the bargain that they have proposed and which we have accepted. I therefore hope that the hon. Member for Harrow West will withdraw the amendment.

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[Dr Blackman-Woods]

However the hon. Gentleman wants to play this, home ownership fell from 70% in 2002 to 64% in 2013. I would have thought that he and his colleagues would want to share some responsibility for that awful state of affairs.

[Mr Bacon]

Does the hon. Lady agree that everybody should share responsibility for 50 or 60 years of failure, and that arguing about statistics in this way is unhelpful? We need a revolution, where people have the opportunity—either individually or in groups, as rich people who can do it themselves or poor people who can do it through mutual housing co-operatives—to get a piece of land and build their own dwelling.

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[Helen Hayes]

I hope that the Minister will listen to the evidence from Westminster City Council on this, which illustrates that the point I am making applies across the whole of London.

[Mr Bacon]

During our oral evidence session, I asked Councillor Philippa Roe whether Westminster City Council was looking at mutual housing co-operatives. She was the most enthusiastic of our witnesses in saying yes. The hon. Lady asked what is in the Bill for people such as those she mentioned, with whom we would all sympathise. One good answer to her question is chapter 2, which allows

“individuals… associations of individuals, or… persons working with or for individuals”

to get together and bring forward their own projects. Lambeth Council has a huge Labour landslide majority. There is nothing to stop that council buying land, bringing forward projects and promoting, establishing and growing mutual housing co-operatives for people such as her constituents. The council has not done that but there is nothing to stop it.

[Helen Hayes]

I will put to Simret and Petros the idea that, in addition to working very hard to provide for their family, they might seek to bring forward their own project and build their own home. Lambeth Council has one of the biggest commitments to building new social housing, including through housing co-operatives, of any council in the country.

[Mr Bacon]

Will the hon. Lady give way?

[Helen Hayes]

I will not because I want to make progress, in the interests of allowing other Members to speak. The amendment in the name of my right hon. Friend the Member for Tooting seeks to ensure that homes lost to the rental sector under the right to buy and forced sales are replaced one for one, like for like, within the local area. I note that the Minister has been rather preoccupied with his emails while I have been telling the story of Simret, Petros and their children, but I hope that when he responds he will tell me that—

[Helen Hayes]

I was concluding my remarks. I hope that the Minister will have a response for my constituents when he responds to the amendment.

[Mr Bacon]

I would like a brief chance to respond to the amendment as well. The constituents whom the hon. Lady described would attract all our sympathy. I only say to her that if it is possible to do it in Berlin, Amsterdam, Stockholm and many other major cities around the world, it is possible to do it in London as well.

[Mr Thomas]

I rise briefly to support the amendment in the name of my right hon. Friend the Member for Tooting and to note that there is nothing in the National Housing Federation’s deal with the Government that protects the interests of London compared with the rest of the country. As I alluded to in my intervention on the hon. Member for Wimbledon, there is nothing to stop housing associations that sell off housing for tenants replacing that housing in Nuneaton or Great Yarmouth, or indeed in other parts of the UK. Surely that is an unacceptable situation. Equally, there is nothing in the Bill that requires central London authorities to find like-for-like properties to be built in their areas. There is nothing to stop housing associations operating in the whole of London selling off properties in inner London and replacing them with properties elsewhere in London.

I say gently to Conservative Members that perhaps the ghost of Shirley Porter motivated this omission in the Bill. Hon. Members will remember that Shirley Porter went out of her way to push those in rented accommodation in Westminster City Council out of those properties in order to influence future elections.

[Mr Bacon]

It is interesting that the hon. Gentleman mentions Dame Shirley Porter. Does he agree that one should not really mention her without mentioning in the same sentence Herbert Morrison, Peter Mandelson’s grandfather? He said, in the late 1940s, “We will build the Tories out of London,” and I think he meant psephologically.