Housing and Planning Bill (Tenth sitting)

Brandon Lewis Excerpts

Tuesday 1st December 2015 Public Bill Committees

[Dr Blackman-Woods]

I am sure the hon. Gentleman is absolutely correct about that. However, in the short period of time since the pilots have been announced and our debate today, we have not all been able to speak to those running the pilots. Indeed, such communication as we have had suggests that they are still putting the details of the pilots together.

[The Minister for Housing and Planning (Brandon Lewis)]

I thought I would try and help the hon. Lady. I do not know whether she has tried picking up the phone and speaking to any of the chief executives, as I have, but it is quite easy to speak to them. I am sure that they will be happy to talk her through their excitement in being allowed to offer ownership to a whole new group of people.

[Mr Thomas]

On a point of order, Sir Alan. After the Minister’s very generous offer to my hon. Friend, would it not be possible to arrange an extra session, to which the Minister might invite the five chief executives to present evidence to the whole Committee, so that we do not have to put in separate phone calls? We could hear directly from the housing associations. Perhaps we could extend the Committee by a day in order to allow that to happen—just a thought, Sir Alan.

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[Kevin Hollinrake]

I am very pleased to hear that. If the hon. Lady visits the Inside Housing website, she will see evidence from David Orr, who says that these provisions will

“ease pressure in all parts of the market, including the rental market.”

The measure will help to improve that supply. It will also help to provide affordable homes to buy for people who are locked out of the market.

[Brandon Lewis]

Sir Alan, it is a pleasure to serve under your continued chairmanship at the start of the week. Some 45 minutes ago, the hon. Member for Harrow West began, if I remember correctly, by supporting the principle of the aspiration to home ownership. It is a shame that, with the exception of my hon. Friend the Member for Thirsk and Malton, we have spent the rest of the time listening to the Opposition speaking against home ownership. They want to stop people having the chance to own their own home and have tabled amendments to that effect.

We touched a few moments ago on the issue of the extra homes being built following right to buy. I will not go into too much detail—I will take your words quite directly, Sir Alan—and will stick to things that are in the scope of the Bill. My hon. Friend made a very good point. On these extra homes that are being built, I understand why the hon. Lady makes the point she does, because, to be fair, I suspect that the Opposition do not quite understand how right to buy and extra homes works. Under 13 years of Labour, for every 170 homes sold under right to buy, just one was built, which is shocking. Under the reinvigorated scheme that came in in 2012 one home is guaranteed to be built for every home sold. As we have heard in statements on the Floor of the House by the Secretary of State and by me, we are reaching that target. In London, we are closer to two homes built for every home sold.

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[Mr Thomas]

One question that housing associations that voted against the National Housing Federation offer have asked is whether they will be forced to go along with the deal. What is the Minister’s answer to that?

[Brandon Lewis]

The deal was signed and, as I understand from the comments of David Orr, all the housing associations that took part in that vote understood that it was a deal for the entire sector. Some 96% of stock is now signed up, and of those that did not have time to sign up or did not otherwise sign up, there is a fair proportion of that 4% that benefit from the right to buy for the transfer of stock anyway. It would be an extraordinarily controlling move if we were to include in the Bill restrictions on housing association decision-making powers, especially as we have worked closely with housing associations to reach a voluntary agreement in the first place, particularly in the light of recent decisions by the Office for National Statistics.

[Dr Blackman-Woods]

Will the Minister explain to the Committee why it is not a controlling mechanism to force housing associations to sell right-to-buy stock when they do not wish to do so, but it is a controlling mechanism to try to include important exemptions, across the whole sector, in the Bill?

[Brandon Lewis]

The hon. Lady underlines the point I made a few moments ago. She and the Labour party simply do not understand that the housing associations themselves want to extend the right to buy. This is a voluntary agreement that the sector put to the Government, which we accepted. The amendments suggest that Opposition Members do not trust housing associations to protect their own clients. I am sorry that they feel that way. The Government trust housing associations to look after their tenants. We believe that they have their tenants’ best interests at heart and that they will use their discretion wisely.

[Mr Bacon]

My hon. Friend may be interested to know that the chief executive of Saffron said to me the other day—he was musing, I must say—that associations should perhaps think of building properties for affordable rent, with a view to people who have been loyal tenants for a long time having the right to buy at some point in future. Is that not a more innovative approach, which more housing associations should adopt?

[Brandon Lewis]

My hon. Friend outlines something that is coming in across the housing association sector. I have spoken to chief executives and others who work in the sector, and they want to introduce new and innovative ideas to deliver more housing and give their tenants a stairway into ownership. Saffron is a really good example of an innovative association. Clearly, as we heard earlier, Opposition Members are not speaking to housing associations much at the moment and are missing out on some of the exciting things associations are talking about and want to do.

Housing associations are professional organisations that operate according to sound commercial and social principles, and we should let them get on with delivering the part of the bargain that they have proposed and which we have accepted. I therefore hope that the hon. Member for Harrow West will withdraw the amendment.

[Mr Thomas]

I am grateful to the Minister for his comments. I very much enjoyed the contribution of the hon. Member for Thirsk and Malton, and I now feel torn. Should I continue to champion the career of the hon. Member for Peterborough? Perhaps the hon. Member for Thirsk and Malton is a better hope. I will see what the Committee decides. I do not want to break my commitment to the hon. Member for Peterborough, but the hon. Member for Thirsk and Malton made a case that was at least compelling enough for me to champion him and help him out.

The Minister’s central charge against the Opposition was that we are seeking in some way to prevent people who aspire to own their own home from doing so. That is simply not the case; indeed, I suspect the Minister feels some shame about the fact that home ownership has declined proportionately during the Conservative party’s period in government, and I recognise his desperate need to cover that up.

[Brandon Lewis]

Would the hon. Gentleman still endorse the view of the shadow Housing Minister, who said it is a good thing that home ownership has fallen since 2005, and recognised what the Government are doing through starter homes and Help to Buy to rebuild home ownership after the mess that Labour left?

[Mr Thomas]

I suspect that my right hon. Friend the Member for Wentworth and Dearne (John Healey) would not have used at least the last part of the phrasing that the Minister used. I join the Minister in praising my right hon. Friend for setting up an inquiry into the reasons for the decline in home ownership and into what we can do about it. I also pay tribute to Peter Redfern, the chief executive officer of Taylor Wimpey, who is leading that inquiry. That follows on from the Lyons review, which was set up by the then shadow Chancellor, Ed Balls, which looked at how we can accelerate progress on home ownership. There is no lack of enthusiasm among Opposition Members for helping people who want to buy their own home. Our point is simply that we need to look at the interests of everyone who needs a place to live—potentially a place to rent while they seek to achieve their dream of a place to own.

It is for that reason that we have raised a number of concerns about the extension of the right to buy and particularly the forced sale of council homes, which we will come on to. We are concerned that that will lead to a reduction in the number of homes available to those on low and middle incomes who cannot immediately afford to buy a property.

I gently say to the Minister, as I said in an intervention on the hon. Member for Thirsk and Malton, that Shelter has been very clear about the Government’s failure to build like-for-like replacements. Only one in nine of properties sold under the right to buy has been replaced.

[Brandon Lewis]

If the hon. Gentleman looks at the actual figures outlined at the Dispatch Box by my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State and by me, he will see that Shelter’s representation of those figures is, bluntly, wrong. The councils delivering right-to-buy rebuilds are delivering those extra homes one for one at the moment, and in fact in London it is closer to two for one. That is in Hansard.

[Mr Thomas]

I was going to suggest that the Minister, if he has not already done so, might like to read what I am told is an excellent book by the hon. Member for South Norfolk. It is called “Conundrum: Why every government gets things wrong and what we can do about it”. Life is too short, sadly, for me to read it, but I gently suggest to the Minister that he might seek inspiration and understanding of why one should seek outside sources to validate or at least challenge the assumptions that one has come to oneself or that one’s civil servants have encouraged one as a Minister to come to. I gently say to the Minister that Opposition Members, in the amendments that we have tabled, are seeking only to do what the late Margaret Thatcher did with the Housing Act 1985. Even she conceded that there was a need for exceptions to the right to buy, and they were included in legislation, not least in the 1985 Act, as I have set out. It seems to us entirely sensible to put in the Bill similar provisions on exceptions to the right to buy. We would be helping housing associations and, indeed, helping the Government in legislative terms by making clear where housing associations stand.

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[Dr Blackman-Woods]

My hon. Friend makes a good point, and when we come to discuss the pay-to-stay provisions, we will hopefully be able to re-emphasise it.

In evidence to the Select Committee, housing associations say that what they build over the next 10 years will change. They say:

“There will be less affordable rent and more low-cost home ownership going forward.”

We are not against more low-cost home ownership. We are trying to elicit from the Minister whether he thinks it important that the social rented housing is replaced, and whether the measures in the Bill make that more difficult or easier. Stonewater says it is

“looking at the product mix…We are re-profiling…our activity”.

L&Q states:

“We have committed to a minimum of 1,000 new affordable rented homes a year. That is less than we would have produced prior to the rent reduction.”

It is also clear from the evidence to the Select Committee that the change in business activity will not be immediately apparent. It will perhaps be 2018 before plans for affordable rents are effective, because many schemes are already in the pipeline and have already been costed, with some of them already being built.

The sector is anxious and it is not clear where the replacement costs will come from. The Committee has received two helpful notes on that topic. One of them is from the Chartered Institute of Housing, which has identified a funding gap, particularly in relation to the sale of high-value local authority housing—a matter we will probably come on to this afternoon. It questions how the Government will fund the whole scheme and make up that funding gap.

There were some announcements, and some additional capital was put forward, in the autumn statement last week. However, as my hon. Friend the Member for Greenwich and Woolwich outlined earlier, in the last few days the Office for Budget Responsibility has said that it still thinks that there will be a reduction of 34,000 homes because of the measures in the Bill and in the Welfare Reform and Work Bill. There is a challenge to the Government to highlight clearly how the replacement will be funded.

I hope the Minister has looked at the very helpful briefing from the Chartered Institute of Housing—after all, the CIH knows something about the delivery of housing in the country—and at the note from PlaceShapers, which raised a very interesting issue for the Committee, which we perhaps have not talked about enough so far: how the valuation gap changes in different parts of the country. For example, in the north, a property could be sold for £50,000. There would be a discount attached to that. However, the replacement property would cost about £135,000 or even more. Replacement costs are coming in at about three times the level at which homes in the affordable rented sector are sold off.

Again, it is not clear from anything that we have heard from the Minister how replacement costs will be guaranteed, whether or not it will be on a like-for-like basis, and how he will seek to ensure that we are not losing the social rented homes that we so desperately need across all areas of the country, and how he will try to persuade housing associations that they should not alter their business plans at this time and not move away from the provision of affordable housing to rent. As the Minister knows, and indeed as all Committee members know, that is because we need more housing across all tenures, and it would be wrong of the Committee to support legislation that would cut support for the local cost of ownership, because that would happen at the expense of social housing to rent, which we desperately need.

[Brandon Lewis]

Amendment 147 and amendment 150, which is obviously for London, would put in the Bill a requirement that the Government must pay a grant that reimburses housing associations for the discount in a way that ensures, as the hon. Member for City of Durham said, they receive full market value for the property.

We have been very clear that we will compensate housing associations for the cost of the discount based on full market value as determined by the open market. In fact, I draw the attention of hon. Members from all parties to the document on the National Housing Federation website, which is the voluntary agreement the NHF put to the Government. In that document, the Government commitment is outlined very clearly in the bullet points—points 3 and 4, but particularly point 3—on the front page of that agreement.

Clauses 56 and 57 are drafted in a way that ensures that the Secretary of State is able to pay in grant to the housing association the amount of the discount once it has been calculated appropriately.

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[Brandon Lewis]

As I keep saying, I believe that the hon. Gentleman is struggling with the concept of a voluntary deal. If the Government do not fulfil our part of the bargain, as outlined on the front page of the agreement, we will be in breach of the agreement, and we are not going to do that. Although I know that the NHF is very comfortable with where we are at, I remind it and the hon. Gentleman that the explanatory notes provide reassurance that the purpose of the clauses is to pay the discount. More importantly, the deal with the sector is crystal clear on that point. It states:

“Any sale would be at open-market value. The Government would compensate the housing association for the full value of the discount, in line with the practice introduced by the Right to Acquire.”

I am happy to reiterate that today.

I appreciate that the Opposition may be uncomfortable about the fact that we have secured a historic deal with the sector not only to deliver our manifesto commitment but to ensure that it builds more homes. However, any attempt to duplicate the deal in the Bill would not be appropriate or in the spirit of the voluntary agreement. It is not what the housing associations want, and it is not necessary to deal with the Opposition’s discomfort. I hope hon. Members withdraw the amendment.

[Dr Blackman-Woods]

I am really disappointed with the Minister’s response. Although he dealt to some extent with amendment 147, I do not think that he dealt at all with amendment 150. The whole point of the two amendments was to try to ensure that housing associations would have funds available not only to make up for the discount but to provide a one-for-one replacement. The Opposition have asked a series of questions about the discount, where the money will come from, and whether the Government guarantee that the money will be there for the full replacement.

[Brandon Lewis]

The hon. Lady has been generous in giving way, and I will be brief. I repeat that, as per the agreement, we will match up with our part of the deal to provide the full market value and cover the discount. Some housing associations have made it quite clear that they believe they will be able to build more than one extra home for every home sold.

[Dr Blackman-Woods]

That clarification is helpful. We will take the Minister at his word, and I will go away and look at what he has put forward this morning. I beg to ask leave to withdraw the amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

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[Helen Hayes]

I will not because I want to make progress, in the interests of allowing other Members to speak. The amendment in the name of my right hon. Friend the Member for Tooting seeks to ensure that homes lost to the rental sector under the right to buy and forced sales are replaced one for one, like for like, within the local area. I note that the Minister has been rather preoccupied with his emails while I have been telling the story of Simret, Petros and their children, but I hope that when he responds he will tell me that—

[Brandon Lewis]

The hon. Lady’s behaviour—her misrepresentation of what my hon. Friend the Member for South Norfolk said, and what she has said just now—is, to be blunt, very misleading to the Committee and Hansard.

[Helen Hayes]

I was concluding my remarks. I hope that the Minister will have a response for my constituents when he responds to the amendment.