Renters' Rights Bill (Second sitting)

Rebecca Smith Excerpts

Committee stage
Tuesday 22nd October 2024 Public Bill Committees

[Rebecca Smith (South West Devon) (Con)]

Q I am interested in the experience you have on regeneration. Social housing ends up with quite a lot of funding going towards regeneration in a way that the private rented sector would not necessarily automatically qualify for, in my understanding. What do you think the provisions of the Bill would be on regeneration—[Interruption.] Oh, we have covered regeneration. I am interested specifically in enhancements that you might have in a social housing setting that would not automatically be available for private rented housing. Have you seen anything that the Bill might have an impact on in relation to that?

Anna Evans: Not through this research, sorry; no.

[Rebecca Smith]

That is fine; thank you.

[The Chair]

Thank you very much indeed for your evidence, and I hope the weather is good in Scotland.

Anna Evans: It is a beautiful day today.

Examination of Witness

Victoria Tolmie-Loverseed gave evidence.

--- Later in debate ---

[Connor Naismith (Crewe and Nantwich) (Lab)]

Q My question goes back to the decent homes standard, and the first part of the question is potentially more for Suzannah. What insights do you have into the impact of the application of the decent homes standard in the social rented sector and then, potentially, on everyone else? How do you see it translating across to the private sector, in terms of the impact on the standard of homes there?

Suzannah Young: We believe that everyone has the right to a warm, dry, safe, secure and affordable home, and social housing has a greater proportion of decent homes than housing of any other tenure. That could suggest that having a decent homes standard helps to bring up standards in housing. We also recognise that housing associations exist to fulfil a social purpose, and we are rightly held to a higher standard. We welcome the Government’s commitment to reviewing the decent homes standard. We are pleased to continue to work with the Ministry of Housing, Communities and Local Government as this develops.

In terms of some feedback for the private rented sector, we agree that it is important to have a clear, modern and meaningful standard that reflects what residents would expect a decent home to be. It is also important that all landlords should have a clear understanding of the condition of all their homes. In the social sector, we are doing work to develop a more consistent approach in that area, as part of our response to “The Better Social Housing Review”. It would need to be something that private landlords were able to do as well to bring up standards.

Specifically—this has been mentioned in terms of the private sector—it is important to recognise that the housing association sector faces multiple and competing pressures, with budgets that are already stretched. We would like to see investment in existing homes at the same time as development of the desperately needed new and affordable homes in the Government’s long-term housing strategy. I suggest that similar attention would be needed for the private sector.

Timothy Douglas: May I pick up on that point? That argument was used in Scotland on the Cost of Living (Tenant Protection) (Scotland) Act 2022. I gave evidence on that legislation two or three times to the Committee up there. In the end, the argument was that the cap was lifted for the social rented sector because it needs to plan for its investment. That is the crux, and it goes back to my previous points—there is no parity here with the incentives, the business planning and the costs that private landlords are facing. We have to have that parity. If the legislation is extending across, the funding needs to be the same. We have to have parity in the investment, the caps and everything else—that needs to be the same. We need that review into all the taxes and costs impacting private landlords, because, quite frankly, we are not getting legislation from either Government Department—the Treasury or MHCLG—that understands the investor appetite for the private rented sector. This legislation is not helping.

[Rebecca Smith]

Q This is a question mostly for Timothy. At the beginning of your contribution, you mentioned the unintended consequences we see from the Bill, and you gave the example of landlords departing the market. I know there is often the argument that they are still providing a home somewhere else if those properties get purchased. I am interested in the statistics you might have—representing both estate agents and landlords—on the impact on the housing market in full. How many properties stay in the private rented sector? Do they move from one landlord to another, or is that ultimately a property that is then lost permanently from the private rented sector?

Timothy Douglas: It is difficult to say. We know anecdotally that if you are in an agent branch and a landlord wants to sell, the branch would try to push that property towards a bigger landlord who could perhaps take it on before it goes on to the open market. We know that that happens in order to retain property. Anecdotally, we know that, because of legislative uncertainty and costs of legislation, as well as the cost of living, which has also hit landlords with their costs, landlords have left the sector—I gave the example of the agent in the west midlands previously. However, it is difficult to ascertain hard data across the board. That could be another recommendation to the Government: to come back with an annual review to Parliament on the state of the private rented sector.

Suzannah Young: May I come in on that?

[The Chair]

We are going to have to go on to the next question, because we are running short of time. I call Michael Wheeler, who has been waiting.

--- Later in debate ---

[Rebecca Smith]

Q My question slightly expands on what David said earlier about the burden on local authorities. The new building safety legislation, for example, was really good news, but it had an impact on the level of staffing available to carry out roles, because of the conflict with the private sector, which might offer people higher salaries. Do either or both of you think that there is a similar risk with this Bill? What could we be doing to ensure that we have the right lead-in time and adequate staffing? Is there an immediate solution that we could learn from that previous example?

Dr Henry Dawson: Councillor Hug, would you like to start?

Cllr Adam Hug: As much support as possible in training up the next generation of environmental health officers is essential. There is a whole raft of skills shortages across the housing sector that you touched upon. Obviously, we want to make sure that people are considering this line of work as a career they want to go into rather than leave. There is a pipeline problem in terms of people coming into environmental health as a workstream, but I do not think that should necessarily delay what we are doing with the Bill. Ultimately, it has been talked around for some time; we need to crack on and get it done. It is absolutely the case that getting that local funding piece is right. Then we can join up with skills and training by making sure that local authorities have a pathway to recruit people into their teams. It is about getting the funding piece right alongside the direction of travel.

Dr Henry Dawson: We face some barriers to bringing people into the profession. For example, we have some more sustainable sources of income with things like licensing legislation, where we can charge a fee; at the moment, my own research finds that only about half those schemes charge enough in fees to cover the full costs of management and enforcement. The Lawrence and Wilson review of selective licensing has shown that if we do not charge enough, it ends up reducing the exercise into a sort of glorified paperwork, so we have to charge enough to make it meaningful.

I would argue that staffing is probably one of the most fundamental issues when it comes to the effectiveness of the interventions proposed in the Bill. At the moment, the predominantly hand-to-mouth existence with local authorities, which we have had for quite a long time now, has been predicated on the fact that we are relying on the council tax payer to fund the enforcement of the private rented sector. That is quite peculiar compared with other industries such as building control or planning, which are able to levy up-front fees that do not have to go through a test of political will—which a lot of local authority managers have to navigate to try to predict what the market within their local political support will accept. It takes a lot out on the guesswork and acceptability side.

The ability to charge a fee also provides us with a sustainable and predictable source of income, and that has been lacking for a long time in local government. If you are never sure of whether you will have funding beyond one or possibly three years, with short-term pots of money that are provided often based on a competitive approach—it is about winning them—then you get a member of staff, but you have to train them once you have got them in. Being optimistic, we can train them through an apprenticeship scheme lasting a year to do just housing work, or if we are training them as an environmental health officer, it is three years for the traditional degree route or five years for an apprenticeship.

Having some form of ringfencing of the funding, which allows local authorities to dedicate resources to attract people into the profession, would be very helpful, as the report that I have pretty much every time I speak to a local authority about recruitment for my programme at the university is, “We don’t have the resources to send people to these events to raise awareness about the profession.” A lot of people are just not aware of what we do; once they find out, it is something that sells itself.

Fire and police are comparable bodies, and they tend to have much more success because they have the resources to devote to this. It comes down to sustainable and predictable funding. That allows us to train and retain, and attract new staff.

[Naushabah Khan (Gillingham and Rainham) (Lab)]

Q I have a question about the wider implications of the Bill and the impact on local authorities. For example, it would be helpful to understand whether you feel the abolishment of section 21 will have a wider implication, and how it might help to tackle some of the bigger homelessness challenges that local authorities are currently seeing—or whether it will have an impact at all.

Cllr Adam Hug: I think the provision will help; the whole point is that we are desperate for this. It has been talked about for a long time and as soon as it can be brought in to provide security in the market, it will be extremely helpful to help stabilise a lot of tenancies where there is still uncertainty. The quicker it can come in, the more helpful it will be.

The Bill will not be a magic bullet that will solve the homelessness problems that councils are facing. I pointed out earlier one of the small technical challenges: the duties that local government will be dealing with will be extended in time and go up, we think, from 56 days to 21 weeks on average under the prevention duty. That is a small price to pay, but ultimately, we would like some help paying for that price.

In terms of stability in the private rented sector, this measure is long overdue and will hopefully take some heat out of the sector, but there are all sorts of things going on that mean that it is going to take a long time to turn around the wider issues of local government finance for temporary accommodation, because that is one of the biggest pressures; there are so many councils at the moment that are working hard to procure as much temporary accommodation as possible.

--- Later in debate ---

[Michael Wheeler]

Q I am sure the Minister will agree that we have heard some illuminating evidence today from excellent panellists. I am wondering what he sees as the key takeaways for the Bill.

Matthew Pennycook: I welcome that question; it is an open one, and I will have to think on my feet in my response. I think a number of the debates will run through the Bill. Supply is one of those. I am clear that we do not want an exodus of landlords from the sector, but I have seen absolutely no evidence of that. It is a threat that has been bandied about for many years now, ever since the previous Government announced their intention to abolish section 21 no-fault notices.

The size of the private rented sector has doubled since the early 2000s. There has been an outflux of smaller landlords, particularly overgeared buy-to-let landlords, which is mainly a result of the section 24 tax changes that George Osborne introduced in 2015, explicitly to slow the growth of the private rented sector. So there has been an exit of certain types of landlord from the sector, but we have certainly not seen an exodus.

The feedback I have had from landlords over recent months and in the previous Parliament is that the most damaging thing for many was the uncertainty about whether reform was coming through in any form. That is why we felt we needed to act quickly. In general, good landlords have absolutely nothing to fear from the new system. We think it provides a framework in which they can continue to invest and operate.

Another point that has been prevalent in the debate is protections for renters against unreasonable within-tenancy rent hikes. In designing the Bill, I have been clear where we have overhauled and strengthened its provisions to strike that balance. We do not want to do anything that could potentially make things much more difficult for tenants, which is why the Government are not advocating rent controls in the Bill. The Scottish experience is instructive of what can happen as an unintended consequence, and we think there would be an impact on supply, quality and standards, as evidence around the world shows.

In many cases there is a judgment call on students and other possession grounds, and it is is a fine balance as to whether we have got it right in the Bill. But there are competing pressures and disincentives in a system—I am being incredibly candid with the Committee here—that has not been overhauled for 30 years. Lots of the speculation about how the tribunal will operate, and how many section 8 cases will go there, is in some ways all completely speculative. We have a sense of what we want to see and how to address the risks, but until the system is properly bedded in, I do not think anyone will know what we have to do in the design to ensure that we have the balance right and will not therefore see the tribunal overwhelmed.

We want to see more people to go to the tribunal. We want section 8 cases to go through the courts more efficiently. We absolutely concede the need for court improvements, and we are working closely with the MOJ on those—I have given some examples in response to the question about what we are taking forward. There is a balance that needs to be struck, and I think we struck the right balance in overhauling the Bill in the specific ways we have, while keeping—I gave the Conservative party the credit for this at the time—the sensible provisions that were in the previous Bill, which we think need to remain at the core of the legislation.

[Rebecca Smith]

Q I have a quick question. One of the things that came up with several witnesses was the issue of parity between privately rented social housing and housing associations, in particular with the increasing standards. That came through particularly strongly on the rural piece. Great things have been done to decarbonise social housing stock, which brings up standards. If such a measure is to be rolled out within three months of Royal Assent or whatever, will the Budget next week include any grounds or capacity in future funding for that parity, especially for those rural homes that are harder to upgrade, given their nature?

Matthew Pennycook: Specifically on rural housing, we have to think through how the decent homes standard will deal with particular challenges in certain types of stock in certain parts of the country. As a point of principle, what we will try to do in the decent homes standard consultation is to take a view on how that should apply across both sectors. Broadly, that is my instinct across the board.

It is the same with regards to the ombudsman. There is a strong case—our preferred option as things stand, although no final decision has been made—for the Housing Ombudsman Service to take on the role of the PRS ombudsman. There is a good case for a streamlined cross-tenure service. Broadly, we want the same standards to apply across the board.

Funding is another example of where there are things that the Bill touches on, but that are not within the scope of the Bill—the minimum energy efficiency standard, for example, has been mentioned a couple of times. That, however, is a Department for Energy Security and Net Zero consultation, which we launched this year. There is also a wider package around the warm homes plan, further details of which will come forward in due course, but that does not sit within my Department either. It is not necessarily part of the Bill, although decent homes will have to account for those changes, such as those on the MEES front.

[The Chair]

Thank you, Minister. That brings us to the end of the evidence session. I thank all Members for participating in what has been a very constructive exchange of views.

Ordered, That further consideration be now adjourned. —(Gen Kitchen.)

Renters' Rights Bill (Fourth sitting)

Rebecca Smith Excerpts

Committee stage
Tuesday 29th October 2024 Public Bill Committees

[David Simmonds]

Clearly, there are a number of ways in which this issue may be addressed, and adding a third-party liability element to domestic insurance, contents insurance or building insurance would be one means of doing that. We know that the industry is likely to respond, as we have just heard from the Minister. I congratulate him on his choice of dog name; Clem sounds like the kind of animal that a future leader of the Labour party would like to have when profiled. Had the dog been called Jeremy or Karl, it might not have been quite as popular.

As we have just heard in some detail, the Government have been looking at this issue and engaging with the market to ensure that insurance providers understand the upcoming demand. I recognise the publicity that many pet and animal charities have brought to the issue, which I think will help to create a climate in which those businesses are more likely to bring forward these products. In the light of those points, and on the understanding that we are making serious progress on this matter, I am happy not to press amendment 55 to a vote.

[Rebecca Smith (South West Devon) (Con)]

I wonder—forgive me, because this is also my first Public Bill Committee—how this will work in a house in multiple occupation compared with a dwelling house, and who will have to have the insurance. If a HMO is operated on a joint-licence basis, who is responsible for the insurance and the indemnity that goes with it?

On another point, what safeguards are we putting in place to ensure that any noise issues arising from pet ownership can be tackled, and where does responsibility for that sit? I appreciate that, where someone owns their home or rents a home that allows them to have a pet, it is probably done through the local authority, but I am conscious, particularly in the HMO setting, of how we would mitigate against that and ensure that we do not end up in a situation where neighbours do not know who to approach to ensure that either the insurance or the antisocial behaviour is acted upon.

[Matthew Pennycook]

The hon. Lady rightly challenges us on some of the finer points of how the provisions will be implemented. If she is amenable, I will happily write to her with further detail on precisely how we see them working in particular circumstances. Her point on HMOs is well made, and I will take it away and come back to her as soon as I can.

Question put and agreed to.

Clause 10 accordingly ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Clause 11 ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Clause 12

Duty of landlord and contractor to give statement of terms etc

--- Later in debate ---

[Matthew Pennycook]

I thank the shadow Minister for that thoughtful point. To be entirely open, it is not one that I have considered. I think it is a fair challenge, and I will go away and give some thought to how we can ensure that local authorities look at all breaches in the round and apply the same approach to each, rather than targeting the low-hanging fruit. To provide reassurance on the concern about good landlords being caught up in the process, I repeat that the process allows landlords to make representations to local housing authorities and the first-tier tribunal if they think that that has happened.

The other point, which we will debate in quite extensive detail, is that enforcement by local authorities is not the only means that the Bill provides of tackling rogue landlords and breaches. I draw the shadow Minister’s attention to the significant strengthening of rent repayment orders, which offers an alternative, tenant-led enforcement mechanism. As I think I said in my evidence to the Committee last week, across the country—in local authority terms, enforcement is a real postcode lottery—the most effective thing I have seen is where well-resourced and effective local authority enforcement is complemented by tenants taking action with rent repayment orders. When the two work in tandem, it can be of real benefit in driving bad landlords out of the sector. I will give further consideration to the shadow Minister’s specific, well-made point.

[Rebecca Smith]

I want to build on the point that my hon. Friend the Member for Ruislip, Northwood and Pinner has just made. It may not quite fit at this point in the consideration of the Bill, but it has come to mind while we have been talking about this. I am sure that we all have been contacted by a tenant and then found out that they are one of five or six tenants, all with the same rogue landlord. What can we do in the Bill to enable the trigger point for one tenancy to be used as an opportunity to explore other tenancies with the same landlord? I have dealt with such a case, where I encountered a landlord with five or six tenants across a city, managing properties with appalling conditions and treatment of tenants. We do not want to have to repeat the exercise six times.

Is there anything in the Bill that would enable the local authority to see whether there are any other tenants in the same situation, or is that a bit too Big Brother—would it be pursuing it too far? The whole Bill is aimed at tackling rogue landlords. Are we slowing down that process by taking each property individually? Is there a mechanism whereby we could collect them all together?

[Matthew Pennycook]

If I have understood the hon. Lady correctly, and if she is amenable to it, I will fold this point into the written response that I have already promised her, but multiple fines can be levied for breaches. If a landlord in a particular part of the country with multiple properties is in repeated breach over that portfolio of properties, local authorities will be able to levy fines on more than one occasion, so it is not a £7,000 limit in the first instance, or £40,000 for more serious cases, per landlord. Again, I will expand on it in a written response, but I think the database can do some work here in terms of landlords in a particular area registering all their properties. I think it will become apparent quite quickly—it depends on how we use the database—if particular landlords show a pattern of behaviour whereby they are not treating their tenants appropriately. Let me come back to the hon. Lady in more detail as part of the response that I have already committed to.

Question put and agreed to.

Clause 15 accordingly ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Clauses 16 to 18 ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Clause 19

Notices to quit by tenants under assured tenancies: timing

--- Later in debate ---

[Matthew Pennycook]

I thank the shadow Minister for that point; it is well made and well understood. As I will write to him on the subject of no recourse to public funds, I will ensure that that point is also covered in our correspondence.

[Rebecca Smith]

I have a point on which I would appreciate clarification. Increasingly, local authorities are purchasing properties to act as temporary accommodation because of a shortage of private rented accommodation. I am interested in whether it is within the scope of the Bill to look at how we would ensure that local authorities are not inadvertently caught up in the new legislation if, for example, they have bought 10 flats in a block to act specifically as temporary accommodation. If they put residents in it temporarily, are they inadvertently caught by the new legislation? Or will they be able to find somewhere else for the people to live, enable them to finish that tenancy and provide it for somebody else who might need temporary accommodation? It is a pretty niche example, but it is happening in my constituency. I am interested to see whether we have accidentally tied ourselves in knots.

[Matthew Pennycook]

That is a niche point—one of many we have had on some of the more technical clauses. That is not a concern that has been expressed to the Government in relation to this clause or other aspects of the Bill, but I will commit to go away and deal with that set of issues relating to temporary accommodation and no recourse to public funds in the round. I will give Committee members a full and detailed answer on each of the points that have been raised.

Question put and agreed to.

Clause 30 accordingly ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Clause 31 ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Ordered, That further consideration be now adjourned. —(Gen Kitchen.)