Economic Crime and Corporate Transparency Bill

Peter Dowd Excerpts

Report stage
Tuesday 24th January 2023 Commons Chamber

[Kevin Hollinrake]

Again, I think it would be wrong to comment on individual cases, but I take the right hon. Member’s point. In general terms, the UK sanctions regulations permit the OFSI to license reasonable legal fees. That is clearly something on which officials make decisions, rather than Ministers—I think it is important to say that—and the merits of any case are for the appropriate court to judge. However, he has certainly campaigned extensively for making sure that people cannot close down the raising of understandable concerns. In essence, I absolutely support that and the work on SLAPPs—strategic lawsuits against public participation—to which my hon. Friend the Member for Isle of Wight (Bob Seely) referred in introducing his ten-minute rule Bill earlier. So that is work in progress, rather than anything that relates specifically to this legislation.

We are taking a power to expand the registrar’s data-sharing ability. That will future-proof the legislation and provide scope to expand the data-sharing gateway, if needed. We are also strengthening the range of sanctions for non-compliance with the register of overseas entities. Our new clause 8 will mean that a director can be disqualified if they breach an obligation under part 1 of the Economic Crime (Transparency and Enforcement) Act 2022, ensuring a consistent approach to tackling non-compliance between that Act and the Companies Act 2006. Following discussions in Committee, we are also removing the power to exempt certain individuals from identity verification requirements, having concluded that it is not essential.

As well as those important amendments, we are making improvements to the limited partnership reforms. We will ensure that a limited partnership’s dissolution and deregistration is transparent and properly drawn to the attention of the public. There will be a legal requirement for these to be published on the Companies House website as well as in the Gazette. Again, this was discussed by Opposition Members in Committee.

[Peter Dowd (Bootle) (Lab)]

I understand that every year there are about 1,200 disqualifications of unfit directors. Does the Minister have any indication of how that number may expand? We have the qualitative element. How about the quantitative element?

[Kevin Hollinrake]

I did not quite hear the hon. Member’s whole point. Is it about the quality and quantity of information in Companies House?

[Peter Dowd]

No. There are about 1,200 disqualifications a year. How many more does the Minister believe may arise from this new legislation?

[Kevin Hollinrake]

We do not have the data to be able to say. It obviously depends on numerous factors. As I say, we are keen to give Companies House the resources it needs, which it currently does not have, to undertake this work. In many ways, this will prove a deterrent against people registering a company for nefarious purposes, rather than necessarily lead to many more disqualifications. It is the transparency element and the scrutiny that is the ultimate deterrent against using these corporate vehicles for the wrong purpose.

Partners of limited partnerships will also have to notify the registrar about a dissolution within 14 days of becoming aware, ensuring that the register can be kept up to date and accurate. New clause 12 clarifies the interactions of the limited partnership reforms with regulation of UK investment funds. That will ensure that the measures work as intended.

Amendments 30, 31 and 32 give the Northern Ireland Department for the Economy and Scottish Ministers powers to petition the courts to wind up a limited partnership registered in their jurisdictions, ensuring a cohesive approach across the devolved nations.

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[Peter Dowd]

I thank the hon. Lady for giving way and wish many happy returns to her mother.

The hon. Lady may recall the passage of the Criminal Finances Act 2017, during which we talked about enforcement and regulatory agencies having the resources to do their job, and us giving them the resources, and the finances, to do it. Does she agree that, following the Economic Crime (Transparency and Enforcement) Act 2022, and the Criminal Finances Act, this Bill, yet again, does not give those agencies the resources, capacity and wherewithal to do the job properly?

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I will talk about the Danske Bank scandal, in which the Minister has consistently expressed great interest and concern. Corrupt trust and company service providers played a key role in enabling massive sums—I have seen figures from £200 billion to £236 billion—to be laundered out of places such as Russia and Azerbaijan into jurisdictions such as the UK, the USA and others.

[Peter Dowd]

The disease of not listening troubles me. I am not saying that the Government are not listening, but they are not listening enough. On my right hon. Friend’s point, there are still thousands of properties in London and across the country that have unknown offshore owners and we do not know where the money comes from. Will the Bill, or its previous incarnations, do anything to resolve that issue? I am not convinced that it will.

[Dame Margaret Hodge]

My hon. Friend makes an important point, because we legislated last year to create a register of properties that are owned through corporations in foreign jurisdictions, but I understand that Companies House is having real difficulty in establishing it, because it is very difficult for it to assess the real beneficial owners of trusts and companies incorporated somewhere such as the British Virgin Islands. That is why the amendments tabled by the Labour Front Bench to ensure that company service providers are located here so that we have better control and supervision are hugely important.

Last week, as I am sure the Minister saw, Danske Bank agreed to forfeit $2 billion in the US courts as part of an agreement to resolve the criminal liabilities facing it. On top of that, civil litigation has led to a fine of more than $400 million and individual employees could yet be charged by the US courts. That is massive. It is worth reflecting on the words used in that court verdict, including that

“Danske Bank, the largest bank in Denmark, deliberately disregarded U.S. law of which it is well aware, facilitated the laundering of criminal and suspicious proceeds through the United States, and placed the U.S. financial network at risk, all in the name of its bottom line.”

The judgment also says that it

“lied and deceived U.S. banks to pump billions of dollars of suspicious and criminal funds through the U.S. financial system… If you want to use the U.S. financial system, you must play by the rules. If you don’t, we will hold you accountable.”

Strikes (Minimum Service Levels) Bill

Peter Dowd Excerpts

2nd reading
Monday 16th January 2023 Commons Chamber

[Grant Shapps]

My hon. Friend is absolutely right. This is about minimum standards. For anyone who cares about the ability to take industrial action and to strike, what we are doing here enshrines that. It does not remove people’s ability to strike, but it prevents union bosses who perhaps are not as reasonable as the RCN from calling strikes that potentially put people’s lives at risk. That is a very different proposition, which I am proud to support.

The Government expect to consult on minimum service levels for ambulance, fire and rail services first. It is expected that these consultations will be published during the passage of this Bill. At the same time as bringing forward the legislation, the Government are doing all they can to continue the discussions that everybody is calling for to ensure that we get a pay settlement with unions that is affordable for the unions, for the country and for the workers paying for it.

[Peter Dowd (Bootle) (Lab)]

As far as I can tell, the Government have ruled out voluntary options 1 and 2 in their assessment, on the basis that they will be ineffective, particularly where unions and employers have major disagreements. The question is: why and how have the Government arrived at that decision now, in advance of the legislation itself?

[Grant Shapps]

It is because we were given adequate demonstration from the recent strikes that unfortunately in some cases the unions involved have not acted in the national interest, whereas others—the RCN, for example—have very much done so. I want to stress what I said at the top of my speech, which is that I do not want us to have to use this legislation if it is not required. We have live strikes going on, so we will be able to see where it is required and where it is not.

Fertility Treatment and Employment Rights

Peter Dowd Excerpts

Tuesday 1st November 2022 Westminster Hall

[Nickie Aiken]

I completely agree. One in six couples experiences fertility issues. That is a huge number of people, as she says. If we are to retain brilliant people in their jobs, we must do more to support them at such a difficult and emotional time.

The Fertility Matters at Work research found that when people spoke to their employers, many felt that what they said was used against them when it came to future opportunities and progressing in the company. The reality of the issue was brought to light by a constituent of mine. I commend her for her bravery in sharing her story; it led to my campaign. She had been working in finance for 19 years. Everything was going well. She was a senior person in her organisation. Sadly, she found she could not conceive naturally, and realised that she had to go for IVF. She did everything under the radar because she did not feel that her employer would be supportive. Sadly, complications in the treatment led to her being in hospital for two weeks; there was then a further four weeks of recovery. The hospital wrote a sick note for her employer that said, “complications due to IVF.” The cat was out of the bag.

When my constituent went back to work, her employer immediately called her into a meeting and told her that she was being moved abroad; she had no choice. She stuck to her guns and went through the IVF. She was told that if she went for the implantation, she could be sacked. She went for the implantation and then decided that she would have to go off work because of stress.

[Peter Dowd (Bootle) (Lab)]

As the hon. Member said, more than one third of employees undergoing fertility treatment consider leaving their job because of the problems she has described. Does she agree that that is not good for the economy, let alone the personal and financial circumstances of the person concerned? That is why this debate is so important, and I thank her for initiating it.

[Nickie Aiken]

The hon. Member is absolutely right. We have to ensure that we retain these brilliant people in their jobs. We have 1 million job vacancies, and we know how difficult it is to recruit people to jobs, so why do we make it as hard as possible to keep people in their jobs when they are going through fertility treatment?

My constituent nearly ended up in an employment tribunal, but because she was in early pregnancy and did not want the stress any more, and because she was finding it difficult to pay the lawyers’ fees, she came to an agreement with her employer and signed a non-disclosure agreement. Since then, she has been unable to speak about her case in public. She came to me in confidence, which is why I took up this cause, so I thank her. She is not the only one. Since I started the campaign, I have been contacted by scores of people, but I know that thousands of women are affected every year. Many women have told me that admitting they are undertaking IVF or any form of fertility treatment can be considered career suicide. We should not allow women to feel that they have to put having a baby up against progressing their career. In the 21st century, why can they not do both? It is important that we listen to such stories, act on them, and provide women and their partners—men or same-sex partners—with the respect and the protections that they need. After all, it is 2022, not 1922. That is why I started this campaign.

The first part of my campaign is my private Member’s Bill, the Fertility Treatment (Employment Rights) Bill, which is due to have its Second Reading on 25 November. The Bill would give individuals the right to take time off for fertility treatment, just as they would if they had antenatal appointments. It is supported by leading charities and non-governmental organisations, as well as the Chartered Institute of Personnel and Development. The Bill goes hand in hand with the incredible work that this Government are already doing to support women in work, through policies on the menopause, couples requiring neonatal leave, and those who have experienced baby loss. I hope that the Government will fully support the Bill on Second Reading.

I know how long it can take to get a private Member’s Bill through the House, but there are also other steps that we can take. We must encourage employers now—today—to take proactive steps to support people undergoing fertility treatment. That is why during this week, National Fertility Awareness Week, I am launching my fertility workplace pledge. The pledge calls for employers of all shapes and sizes to lead the way by voluntarily signing up to a clear set of commitments relating to accessible information, awareness in the workplace, staff training and, crucially, flexible working. Tomorrow morning, I will hold an event here in Parliament, to which all hon. Members are invited. It brings experts and academics together with leading businesses that, I am delighted to say, have already signed up to a pre-launch of the fertility workplace pledge, including NatWest, Metro Bank, Zurich, Channel 4, Co-op, Cadent Gas, UKHospitality and a huge array of UK law firms. I am particularly proud that the House of Commons has also agreed to take part.

By signing the fertility workplace pledge, all those organisations will improve their workplace culture and the wellbeing of their staff, which in turn reduces stress and sick leave, and safeguards against employee tension. Importantly, it will put no unnecessary burden on their businesses. That shows that businesses are supportive of the key principles of my Bill. We must remember that the pledge is voluntary. No matter how hard we try, without the necessary legislation and protections, thousands will be left vulnerable to discrimination.

There are so many misconceptions about fertility treatment, especially in the workplace. Many think that it is a lifestyle choice for older career women who have waited too long before trying to start a family. That could not be further from the truth. More than 40% of women who resort to treatment are under 35, and many turn to IVF for medical reasons, such as having gone through early menopause or cancer treatment. It is also a route to having a family for LGBT couples, as well as for those who do not have a partner or are clinically infertile. People should never be penalised because they cannot conceive naturally.

It is time to recognise fertility treatment as a very important part of reproduction. We have a falling birth rate in this country. We cannot put unnecessary hurdles in the way of people who want to start families. After all, our children are our country’s future. We must support everyone who is going through fertility treatment in order to conceive, and give them the employment rights that they need and deserve.

Energy Security Strategy

Peter Dowd Excerpts

Tuesday 5th July 2022 Westminster Hall

[Peter Dowd (Bootle) (Lab)]

It is a pleasure to see you in the Chair, Mr Davies. The fact is that if we took the approach of the right hon. Member for Wokingham (John Redwood), we would not have moved on from the use of coal. In the 19th century, coal powered virtually everything, but then oil and then gas started to power things. We have to move on. There has to be a short, medium and long-term strategy. It is fine if people want to ask me, “Well, what are your plans for next week and the week after that?” We can have lots of plans for next week, but there also have to be plans for the medium and long term, and that is what the energy strategy is about.

[John Redwood]

Will the hon. Gentleman give way?

[Peter Dowd]

I will in a moment. The right hon. Gentleman also asked about the alternative energy supply if wind drops off. It has to be part of a comprehensive package—that is the issue. Energy has to be available and one does it in a variety of ways. It is not simply about a turbine going down and that being the end of the matter. There are designs available out there, for example in Cape Cod, where a company, developer, Government or state—call it what you will—can ask about an area’s topography and then design wind turbines to maximise the capacity, and that is built into the strategy. That is how it is done—through technological use of the topography, so to speak.

[John Redwood]

The hon. Gentleman completely misrepresents my views. I was an adviser to the new electricity-generating system at the time of privatisation, when we encouraged and designed a system that carried out a massive switch out of coal and into gas because it was cleaner and a lot cheaper. That was the first green revolution. I hope he will withdraw his slur on me.

[Peter Dowd]

If telling the truth is a slur, I certainly will not withdraw it. The fact of the matter is that the right hon. Gentleman has to come into the 21st century. The system is not working. We have a privatised, market system that, quite frankly, is not working. The problems we are now having because of the Russian invasion of Ukraine just reaffirm that the model is not working and that we do not have the disparate energy supply that we actually need.

I agree with much of what the hon. Member for Weston-super-Mare (John Penrose) said on market reform, so I will not go into that. He also raised the issue of tidal power. My constituency is on the Mersey and overlooks a lot of turbines, but for a long time, since I was a member of Merseyside County Council 40 years ago, we have also been trying to get the Mersey barrage. There are lots of examples of barrages working well across the world—I did have a list of them, but I do not have it to hand—and they are priced relatively well. That is also case in other countries that are pushing the green agenda. The Netherlands are using their topography, as are the Spanish. The Japanese are now virtually in the position where they can have 100% efficiency with wind and a variety of other sustainable energy plans. India, Australia, France, Germany, China and the USA are moving ahead. Yes, the UK is doing well, but we are not doing well enough. We have to move on as much as we possibly can.

One of my concerns is the Government’s approach to community energy companies. A letter from the Secretary of State for Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy to a colleague says:

“The right to local energy supply already exists under the Electricity Act 1989 and Ofgem, the independent energy regulator, has existing flexibility to award supply licences that are restricted… Changing the licensing framework to suit specific business models risks creating wider distortions elsewhere in the energy system, which could increase costs for other consumers and further unintended consequences.”

I do not believe there is any evidence whatsoever for that—quite the contrary—so it would be interesting to hear what the Minister has to say about it. In my opinion and that of many other people, that letter is not factually correct. For example, in a local network, energy loss through the system is significantly lower. That has not been factored into the Government’s strategy, but it should be.

The Secretary of State’s letter effectively pooh-poohs the idea of local community enterprises on the grounds that they will distort the market—well, if we do not have a distorted market at the moment, what precisely do we have? We are here today to push the Government to create an energy market that serves the country. I do not want to go into the issue of nationalisation and public ownership of the energy sector, because my hon. Friend the Member for Birkenhead (Mick Whitley) has already done so, but at the very least we have to have a good look at it, because the market is not working. It is as simple as that, and I would challenge anybody who tells me it is. We have to move on, and as the coalition Government said in their July 2011 UK renewable energy road map—we came to a bump in the road somewhere between 2011 and now—

“The nations of the United Kingdom are endowed with vast and varied renewable energy resources. We have the best wind…and tidal resources in Europe.”

That is as true today as it was 10 years ago, but I am afraid we are not using all the advantages we have as a nation. We have almost an inbuilt potential energy supply, but we are not using it. It is about time that the Government get to grips with that and use what we have now, not just in the future.

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[John Redwood]

Once again, the hon. Lady is in denial. She will not answer the intermittency problem. Does she ever look at the hourly and daily statistics on the grid to see, quite often, how little of our power is renewable-generated? That is because of physics and weather. We have to find technological answers to that. Now, there are technological answers, but at the moment they are not being adopted. They are not commercial and they have not been trialled properly; there may be safety issues and all sorts of things.

[Peter Dowd]

Yes, they have.

[John Redwood]

The hon. Gentleman says that they have been trialled. Why are they not there, then? Why can I not turn on my hydrogen tap now? There are all sorts of commercial issues and issues about how to route it to every home and so forth.

[Peter Dowd]

The right hon. Gentleman is so fixed on this idea of commerciality. There will potentially come a point when the taxpayer—for the sake of argument—decides that the Government are going to invest. I know that the right hon. Gentleman has an ideological obsession with the Government not doing that. However, in the current situation, does he not agree that the state might sometimes have to do just that?

[John Redwood]

But that is happening. We already have one of the most over-managed systems because successive Governments have put in all sorts of subsidies, tax breaks, interventions, price controls and all the rest of it to try to send those signals. That is why we have the current mix—it is not the exact mix the market would have produced.

I fully accept that there is often a role for Government when we try to develop new technologies. I have no problem with that. However, it does require agreement on what that technology is, agreement on the scale of the effort needed and realism about how many years it would take. It is all very well for the Members present to say that they have a vision of everybody using an electric car and having a heat pump. However, if their constituents cannot afford it or do not want it, it does not matter what Members think—they have to deal with the world as it is. We cannot lecture our constituents into having a heat pump. They will have a heat pump when it is affordable, when it is a good product and when they think it makes sense, and they are nowhere near coming to that conclusion at the moment.

The crucial question in this debate is what more the United Kingdom can do at this critical moment. We have to help our allies and friends on the continent who are gas short and oil short and want to get Russia out of their supply system but cannot do so because it would collapse their industry, while Russia is financing a war by selling its oil and gas into Europe as well as elsewhere. I think there is a lot more we can do.

I urge the Minister to see it as both a patriotic duty and a crucial duty to our allies to work closely with our producers and owners of oil and gas reserves in the United Kingdom and maximise output as quickly as possible. Some of the output can be increased quite quickly; for others, it will take two or three years to get the investments in. Will the Minister do everything he can to expedite it? We owe that to our constituents, because gas and oil are too dear—every little extra that we can produce will make a little difference—and confidence in markets might be affected. Above all, we owe it to our allies, who will otherwise be financing Putin’s war.

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[Owen Thompson (Midlothian) (SNP)]

I congratulate the hon. Member for Birkenhead (Mick Whitley) on securing this debate. It has been great to hear a range of views.

It is obvious to many that the Westminster style of government is often one that seems to tinker around the edges and prioritise flashy point scoring over a long-term strategy. That is why it is strange to see something that calls itself a strategy, but is really just tinkering around the edges, rolled into multi-year plans. The energy security strategy comes at the right time to address the climate crisis and the cost of living, but fails on both fronts, not least because of the gaping holes in it.

I will first touch on the near total lack of support for tidal energy, which we have heard from other Members.

[Peter Dowd]

The hon. Gentleman reminds me of the point that the hon. Member for Weston-super-Mare (John Penrose) made about cost. The Sihwa tidal scheme in South Korea, the Rance scheme in France, the Annapolis scheme in Canada, the Jiangxia scheme in China and the Kislaya Guba scheme in Russia all want to expand because they recognise that it is a cheap way forward.

[Owen Thompson]

I agree. We do not even need to look that far; we only have to look at hugely innovative tidal projects like Nova Innovation in Leith, which could be game changers with the right support, yet the strategy’s only commitment to any tidal energy is to simply explore it.

The energy sources need a guarantee and ring-fenced money every year. After years of campaigning from Members in my party in particular—I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Kilmarnock and Loudoun (Alan Brown) and my right hon. Friend the Member for Ross, Skye and Lochaber (Ian Blackford)—the Government finally agreed last year to provide £22 million in ring-fenced funding for tidal energy. That is welcome—I make no bones about that—but £22 million simply does not reflect the huge potential of tidal, which can produce more than 15% of the UK’s energy generation capacity, according to a Royal Society report last year. A £71 million pot, which is what the aforementioned Members had been pushing for, could unlock £140 million of private investment, creating around 400 jobs, whereas the £22 million mentioned before would unlock only £20 million and create only 100 jobs.

Whether it is £20 million or £70 million, there is no guarantee that the funding will continue. How do we and, more important, investors know that it is not just a one-off? The reality is that without this funding they will be forced to compete for contracts with long-established companies. It is like trying to force a start-up to compete with Google completely unaided.

Geothermal energy is another area that gets only a passing mention in the strategy. The strategy ignores the huge potential of and appetite for mine water geothermal, which is a way to tap into heat from water in abandoned mineshafts, using the past to power our future. The Coal Authority and local activists are doing great work on this front, but central Government funding is patchy and unco-ordinated. We have heard about the projects in Spain and the Netherlands, which have already taken research from Scotland—Midlothian, in fact, in 2003—and rolled it out into huge-scale geothermal projects.

My constituency of Midlothian, with its huge wealth of geothermal mine water potential, could be an energy powerhouse if the Government got their act together and supported a pilot or a large-scale trial. It is not just my constituency, though; across Scotland, mine water could deliver £333 million of economic growth and about 9,800 jobs, yet the strategy does nothing to unlock that potential. That reinforces the points made about projects that could move faster and be brought online very quickly.

For a far better model, look at Norway. Our Nordic neighbour relies on hydro and heat pumps, while exporting its oil and gas to neighbours. The combination makes it a far more resilient to geopolitical shocks, such as those we are currently suffering from. Scotland could and should follow suit, and would were it not for energy being reserved to this place. We have the skills. The heat pumps used in Drammen were made in Glasgow, for instance.

The UK is underdeveloped when it comes to district heating, relying on individuals to pick up the cost. Of course, that is intentional; it drives individuals into fuel poverty while making huge profits for the suppliers. This is why the strategy’s commitment to £30 million of heat pump investment is money spent in the wrong place. It should be invested in large-scale district heating solutions. Instead, it will end up with consumers forking out once again.

I cannot pass over the scandal that sees Scotland facing the highest grid charges anywhere in Europe. Our grid still works on outdated assumptions that prioritise the construction of plants near large population centres. In the green energy age, it is rural communities that will generate our power—from the coasts of Orkney to the hills of Galloway. It is time that we overturn the current model.

We then come to nuclear. Where do I start? Nuclear build costs have trebled over a decade, while solar and wind costs have more than halved. No wonder Hinkley Point C is now nearly 50% over budget and running five years late. If we are serious about the “security” in “energy security”, we cannot ignore the radioactive elephant in the room. Nuclear waste still needs to be buried for hundreds of years; there is literally no other working solution. It is time for the Government—and Labour—to drop their nuclear obsession and come into line with the Scottish Government, who recognise the contribution that nuclear has made in the past, but oppose new nuclear stations while the current technology renders them slow to build and environmentally unsustainable.

Of course, the strategy works within the parameters of the Government's contracts for difference. When contracts are awarded based on big wallets rather than national interest, it is unsurprising that so many of Scotland's turbine manufacturing yards are struggling to stay in business despite their huge potential.

Energy efficiency has been ignored once again. Technology and methods that increase the efficiency of our energy use will reduce energy demand, which gives us better security should crisis hit. British homes lose heat up to three times faster than European homes. From the sick man of Europe, we are becoming the cold man of Europe, but instead of pushing for new builds to be insulated and energy efficient, we are stuck with retrofitting. Yet again, the mindset is to tinker around the edges. The Scottish Government spend a whopping four times per capita more on energy efficiency measures than the UK Government. Will the Minister commit to following suit?

I do not know whether the Scottish Government’s opinions matter at times, though, given that they were not even consulted prior to the publication of the strategy—something they have been very critical of, given the major role that Scotland plays in meeting the UK’s energy needs. It is clear that Westminster just cannot bring itself to overhaul the outdated status quo, even when a crisis demands it. For as long as Scotland remains part of the UK, we will be held back by its antiquated and unco-ordinated private energy systems. Scotland cannot afford this broken system any longer, so I look forward to next year, when we can have our own say.

Oral Answers to Questions

Peter Dowd Excerpts

Tuesday 22nd February 2022 Commons Chamber

[The Minister for Energy, Clean Growth and Climate Change (Greg Hands)]

I thank my hon. Friend for his long-standing and passionate interest in community energy. I was delighted to meet him and colleagues just before the recess. Through the introduction of UK-wide growth-funding schemes such as the towns fund, the Government are enabling local areas to tackle net zero goals. We intend to publish an updated retail energy market strategy in due course.

[Peter Dowd (Bootle) (Lab)]

T4.   Less than 24 hours ago the Prime Minister said:“SAGE is certain that there will be new variants, and it is very possible that those will be worse than omicron.”—[Official Report, 21 February 2022; Vol. 709, c. 44.]What practical steps has the Department taken to ensure the maintenance of the infrastructure needed to develop second-generation covid vaccines and to build the pandemic-readiness resilience to which the Prime Minister referred?

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy (George Freeman)]

I will happily talk to the hon. Member offline about the extensive vaccine pipeline that we are in the process of procuring. It includes next-generation mRNA vaccines for both flu and the next phase of covid. We are ahead of the curve on the next phase, as we were during the pandemic.

Oil and Gas Producers: Windfall Tax

Peter Dowd Excerpts

Tuesday 1st February 2022 Commons Chamber

[Peter Dowd (Bootle) (Lab)]

Yesterday, many Conservative Members, not many of whom are here today, said that they wanted to talk about the real things that affect their constituencies. I am as happy as they are to talk about the things that affect our constituencies.

One of our constituents’ most immediate concerns, of course, is the increase in their energy bills, which amounts to an energy crisis for millions of people. As we have heard, rising wholesale gas prices are threatening to drive energy bills up by almost a third—a huge £700 increase to £2,000 a year. As for getting things done, delivering on people’s priorities or levelling up, the situation is worth a perusal. What did the Government get done on energy infrastructure? Not a lot. They have refused to invest in the infrastructure necessary to decarbonise our energy supplies and reduce our reliance on external providers. Instead, the British public have been left at the whim of oil and gas companies.

Financial challenges loom for our constituents because the Government did not get the job done in that policy area. The Joseph Rowntree Foundation has found that single adult households on low incomes could soon be spending 54% of their income on energy bills—a shocking statistic. The energy crisis is compounded by inflation at 5%, the highest level since 30 years ago when the Tories were last in government. There is a slash-and-burn approach to the country’s energy supply. Households across our nation have had their resilience tested time and again by this Government. Millions more are struggling with the cost of living, and it is becoming impossible to heat houses. Energy bills are shooting up and there is no action of any substance from the Government.

What is the Government’s response? Let us say that there are two options: a windfall tax on the oil and gas companies that have profited from the Government’s mess, or an increase in taxes on struggling low-income families and workers. Of course, we all know what the Government will go for and have gone for: taxing £12 billion out of people’s pockets. It is worth remembering that a 1.25 percentage point increase on national insurance contributions is in effect an 8% increase, given a national median wage of about £29,900. On that income, in 2021-22, a person will have paid £2,439, but in 2022-23 they will pay £2,652, which represents an increase of 8%.

The gas companies have made mega-profits over the years. The largest made a combined profit of $174 billion in the first nine months of 2021. Huge profits are being made, but despite the ambitious plans from BP, for example, to reduce its carbon footprint and move towards renewables, they are not being reinvested at the level that they should be—not at all.

Data published by the UK Government-backed extractive industries transparency initiative shows that in 2019-20, ExxonMobil received £117 million in total from HMRC, while Shell got £110 million and BP received £39 million. What are the Government going to do about those tax reliefs? Can we have an answer to that? What was the total expenditure forgone in tax reliefs in 2020-21?

Households will continue to struggle unless the Government get a grip. The behaviour of the oil and gas companies only goes to show that we cannot rely on the sector alone to deliver net zero in the time available. We need to take action. The Government really do need to take action. They need to get a grip on this issue, because people out there—our constituents—are struggling and challenged.

Finally, we have heard the outrageous suggestion that no one supports a windfall tax. May I remind—or bring it to the attention of—Conservative Members that 75% of Tory voters support a windfall tax?

[Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Nigel Evans)]

I thank the hon. Gentleman for being so succinct. As Members can see, there are 12 standing. I advise them to speak for no more than five minutes, then we will be able to get everyone in.

Commercial Rent (Coronavirus) Bill (First sitting)

Peter Dowd Excerpts

Committee stage
Tuesday 7th December 2021 Public Bill Committees

[Sara Britcliffe]

Dominic, do you want to add something?

Dominic Curran: Kate said exactly what I would have said; if you just replace “hospitality” with “retail”, you are more or less there. The only thing I would add to Kate’s comments is that, just as at the peak of the pandemic, with the business rates holiday and restart and reopening grants, when retail and hospitality were able to reopen, you would need to see a package of measures to support businesses in the event of any further restrictions.

[Peter Dowd (Bootle) (Lab)]

Q An early-day motion tabled on 27 April 2020 expressed concern—I will not go into the details—about some large pub companies charging rents. You can have a look at it after the meeting. Partly in relation to that, I just want to get a feel of the differences you may have seen between small and large tenant and landlord businesses and how they have handled rent arrears. Have you seen any differences at all?

Kate Nicholls: If you look at the pub-owning businesses and the tied pub companies, there has been a far greater degree of forgiveness of rent among those businesses. It might not be 100% for all of them, but significant rent concessions have been granted throughout the periods of closure, and immediately granted. There has also been a greater willingness to defer rent, allowing rent debt to be accrued and rescheduled over a longer period of time.

If you look at the commercial sector, there has been a variety of different approaches, and there is not anything that really reflects the size of landlord or of tenant businesses in terms of a willingness to negotiate and to reach agreement. Some very small landlord companies have been very willing to give rent holidays, concessions and deferments, and some large commercial companies have been very difficult and intransigent in coming to the table and negotiating, and are taking further enforcement action. It is less to do with the size; it is more the nature of the landlord that has caused the biggest challenges, and the ones that we have found taking enforcement action tend to have been the larger commercial landlords, who have taken a more robust line.

[Seema Malhotra]

Q Could I ask your views—perhaps I will start with Mr Curran—about the 10 November cut-off? We have had some evidence suggesting that there are landlords who are choosing not to engage and are ignoring the code, and who have applied for court order judgments for full arrears to be paid. Do you have a view about whether the Bill should treat all claims equally, whether they were issued pre or post 10 November, and have you seen in practice behaviour that could end up getting around the protections that the legislation is intended to bring in?

Dominic Curran: Thank you very much for asking that. That is a really important issue for our members. We have been asking for action on county court judgments and High Court judgments since October last year. We are very pleased that the Government listened and took account of our concerns to the extent that it was announced alongside the Bill that there would be no ability for landlords to pursue court processes for rent arrears after 10 November, when the Bill was introduced. Unfortunately, that means that any landlord who started those proceedings before 10 November is now in a more advantageous position than any landlord who was perhaps negotiating in line with the code and taking a more reasonable approach with their tenants.

We have the slightly perverse situation that the “more aggressive” landlords are actually better off now than those who might have been taking a longer, more reasonable and more timely approach. I do not see why it should be impossible for there to be a direction to courts to stay any court hearing—county court or High Court—for rent arrears pending the outcome of any arbitration process, or the period in which you could make an arbitration process after the Bill gets Royal Assent. I do not see why it is right that those landlords who have been more aggressive are able to carry on their approach.

We saw that problem early on in the process. The Government rightly and laudably made it effectively impossible in England for landlords to take properties back, to seize goods to the value of the debt, and to effectively start the process of winding up a tenant. That was the rent protection moratorium, which was very welcome and was extended, but it left, as we have been saying since October last year, a gap in the ringfence that unfortunately some landlords sought to exploit very early on. Landlords’ lawyers were sending tenants letters demanding rent arrears, and they could effectively impose the costs of that process on to the tenant.

The tenant was therefore liable for not only the rent arrears and any interest due but their landlords’ lawyers costs, which some suggested might have been slightly inflated, as well as their own legal costs in defending themselves. One member said to me, “It’s a bit like a water running downhill; it will always find a way.” That was the situation with CCJs. While it is fantastic that there has been recognition of that loophole, unfortunately it applies only from 10 November. Any CCJ that had not reached a final decision but was in train in the courts should be stayed pending the outcome of the arbitration process.

--- Later in debate ---

[Mark Eastwood]

Do you want to add anything, Astrid?

Astrid Cruickshank: No, I am happy with that. I think Melanie has covered it.

[Peter Dowd]

Q We all know of circumstances in which tenants and landlords may have played the game; frankly, it would be naive to believe otherwise. In that regard, we are in exceptional circumstances. Members here today are supposed to be wearing masks, for example; we have rules in the House, but people ignore them. We are all trying to play the game in this sort of situation. We are all trying to be responsible.

There is an issue about landlords. I think you accepted that landlords agree with the principle that both landlords and tenants might have to share the burden of rent arrears that built up during the period of coronavirus restrictions, in the light of the examination of evidence. Do you accept the principle that there may have to be a sharing of the loss for both the tenant and the landlord? Unlike Government Members, I do not think that this is a laughing matter.

Astrid Cruickshank: May I answer that? Our tenants have had varying experiences throughout the pandemic, and some have made more profit during covid than they did the year before, which is down to their ingenuity—pivoting their business and moving more online. I have had at least five tenants file accounts with Companies House that show a higher profit in the first year of covid than the year before. In such a case, there is no loss to share.

Our tenants in hospitality and the gyms that we own have clearly made losses. We have restructured the leases in all such cases. We have put more money into our entities so that we could give them some rent free to help them through the lockdown. We extended the lease, got a break dropped or got some kind of quid pro quo.

Melanie Leech: In my experience, most larger landlords have been working to a sort of grid. They have tried to look at each of their tenants and see the position they are in, and they have prioritised support to help the most needy. The most support has been given to smaller business, independent businesses and businesses that do not have strong financial backing; it has been given overwhelmingly to the hospitality sector, because everyone has recognised that the majority of those businesses do not have the kind of alternative routes that Ms Cruickshank was just talking about. Millions of pounds have been given in rent write-offs already, as reflected in the data that I referenced at the start.

Forgive me if I was not clear in what I said; let me come back to my point. We believe that those tenants who can afford to pay their rent or who cannot demonstrate need should pay their rent in full. Tenants who can demonstrate significant impact on their businesses and have no way of paying should get support from landlords who can afford to give it. We absolutely believe in that principle, because we believe that property owners and their tenants are economic partners and they should be working together.

It is not, by the way, in a property owner’s interest to either evict a tenant or have a tenant go bust if they believe they are a viable tenant, because an empty building is generating no rent at all—whether it is a debt or whether it is being paid. It becomes a business rates liability that the property owner then has to pay. It becomes a dead building. When a month’s footfall goes from an area, it does not come back. If you have empty buildings, people leave that area and they forget what took them there in the first place. That has an impact on both immediate rent and on the value of the property. It is not in a property owner’s interest not to keep tenants in place wherever it is possible to do so.

[Seema Malhotra]

Q I want to ask you specifically about the definition of “business tenancy” in the Bill. There has been some feedback that the definition is different from and narrower than that of the relevant business tenancy in coronavirus legislation. Do you have any views about the definition and, therefore, what could come within the scope of the Bill?

Melanie Leech: I have not had any concerns about that raised with me by my members.

Astrid Cruickshank: I do not have any concerns about that either.

--- Later in debate ---

[Seema Malhotra]

Q What is your view on how arbitrators should be guided in going through the process? What needs to be in place, in terms of guidance or otherwise, to make their role clear, so that there is some consistency? I imagine that confidence will come with clarity and consistency. Do you have any concerns or any message for us about what you want to see in place—what kind of guidance needs to be brought forward? Could I extend that to how assessments might need to be made of viability and ability to pay, with other costs—business rates and other costs, like the jobs tax—that might be coming on stream for businesses as well?

Lewis Johnston: Certainly. I was pleased to see, in clause 21 of the Bill, that guidance will be provided. There are several areas in which guidance might be necessary. The first is something that I know will be coming when applications open for approved bodies to appoint arbitrators, and that is around the precise skillsets needed. We have a reasonably good idea of what that would entail, but a bit more detail would be helpful. For the arbitrators themselves, I think the crux point is around viability and affordability. The Bill and the code of practice go into a bit of detail about the kind of evidence that could be assessed as part of that. I think there should be clarity over exactly how much power the arbitrator will have to be inquisitorial as part of the process, the extent to which they can order discovery and so on, and the kind of evidence they can ask for from the parties.

The Bill is very clear about its intention to balance the interests of tenants and landlords and to maintain the viability of otherwise viable businesses, while also having regard to the solvency of the landlords. There may need to be more guidance, and I appreciate that that might come when cases start to go through the system, about balancing the request of the tenant on what is viable for them with what is consistent with maintaining the solvency of the landlord, when those are at odds. Exactly how that could be decided is a bit of a moot point at this stage.

[Peter Dowd]

Q Partly linked to this one is clause 7(2) and (3). Subsection (2) sets out the requirement for the Secretary of State to approve those bodies suitable to become approved arbitration bodies to carry out the functions under section 8. The disapproval of arbitration bodies is in subsection (3). Have you had any conversations with the Department about the parameters of approved arbitration bodies—who they should be associated with, registration and all the rest—given that there may well be substantial amounts of arbitration going through the process?

Lewis Johnston: That is a good question, and the discussions we have had with the BEIS team initially focused on the question of capacity, because obviously we are talking about quite a large number of cases. The decision to go for more of a market-based approach, with a list of approved bodies rather than a single monolithic provider, was probably the right one. I appreciate that the Bill is taking more of a principles-based approach than saying that the arbitrators have to be accredited in a certain way. It is more about having the competency and impartiality.

Each of the bodies, if they are to be approved, will have to meet the criteria in one way or another. Speaking just for the Chartered Institute of Arbitrators, all our members are bound by our code of ethical and professional conduct, which covers issues such as integrity and fairness, disclosing conflicts of interest, ensuring that you are competent to take on the appointments you are given, trust and confidence in the process, and transparency around fees. That would address a lot of things.

Also, anyone that we were to appoint—should we become one of those approved suppliers—would have to make clear and sign a declaration at the outset, which disclosed any potential conflicts of interests or anything that might be perceived as such, as well as declaring they were competent and had the capacity to take on these cases. That would mitigate the risk of them having to resign or of delays in processing the case.

[Peter Dowd]

Q Would you welcome further, more detailed discussions with the Department on these matters? It is important that we try to get this right, because we do not want to create more problems down the line. I think we have been here before in relation to those people who are regulated—whether that be social workers, doctors or nurses—so it is important that we get that right. Would you welcome more significant or more substantive discussions with the Department about how this should pan out?

Lewis Johnston: I would welcome more detail on exactly what the approval criteria would be and what the role of the approved suppliers under the scheme would be. There has been a good degree of engagement from the Department so far, but what the criteria would be has not yet been published. However, I know that they are coming shortly. That will be the crucial point in terms of assessing what the role of these appointing arbitration bodies would be.

[Paul Scully]

Q In the last sitting, Melanie Leech expressed concern about having a system like this set up for small landlord and tenant issues, compared with some of the bigger and more complex ones. How do you think arbitration services could cater for both sides?

Lewis Johnston: I understand the intention is that it would be the simpler, perhaps smaller party cases going through to the scheme, and I think that is correct. Given that the emphasis is on simplicity, accessibility and managing the costs, any scheme that had to accommodate the intricate, large-scale cases would encounter some problems in terms of balancing the two. Again, I point to precedents with things like the business arbitration scheme. It is difficult at this point to assess exactly what the appropriate fee level would be, because you would have to properly assess exactly how much work will be involved in each case—obviously not until they had come through—but I think that in the simpler cases that could be set at a level that was affordable. As some of Melanie’s members had made clear, it needed to be at quite a modest level for it to be accessible to them.

In terms of how the arbitration bodies would manage a variation in the complexity of cases, even it was perhaps the smaller, more simpler end of the spectrum, there will still be variation. We would maintain—this would apply to other bodies as well—lists and databases of arbitrators who would be suitable. Based on the nature of the case that came through, there would be a shortlist drawn up based on who had the requisite skill sets to handle that case. The pool that we would draw from should be broad enough to be able to cater to different types of cases and different sectors and so on.

Commercial Rent (Coronavirus) Bill (Second sitting)

Peter Dowd Excerpts

Committee stage
Tuesday 7th December 2021 Public Bill Committees

[Seema Malhotra]

Q I think it is important—in the context of increased business costs next April, whether from business rates or the jobs tax—that your view is that those six months may not be long enough to have the scheme in place.

Martin McTague: We are seeing a lot of retail businesses hanging on by their fingernails, hoping for the best in this last quarter, and trying to get through the Christmas period, which is often make or break for them. If they get even a partial success, and start creeping towards a solution at the end of spring next year, it would be disastrous to try to drive those businesses under when they have survived all the trials and tribulations of covid so far.

Andrew Goodacre: I think the way the code of practice and the Bill have been put together is not bad, and they really try to cover all eventualities. The cost element of arbitration is a barrier to businesses, and puts the legislation at risk. The viability question—how you determine viability, and the clarity and transparency around that—needs to be addressed early on.

I know that we have asked this question and been given the answer, but there needs to be absolute clarity that the Bill applies to all businesses in scope, including those that are contracted out of the Landlord and Tenant Act 1985. That was one of the earlier questions that came back from some members, and we were told that it does include all those contracted-out businesses, but we need to be clear on that, because we do not want to end up with an unnecessarily ambiguous area that leads to legal argument.

There are also tenancy-at-will situations. When negotiations on a new lease are ongoing but have not been resolved during the closure period—the protected period—the tenant is operating on a tenancy at will. Arguably, there is no guarantee that that tenancy at will is covered by the Bill. Again, that will need clarity and understanding.

Martin McTague: There is another point that I should have raised. A lot of supply-chain businesses supply those that are directly affected and covered by the scope of the Bill—they have been seriously affected by what has gone on so far. If you take a retailer, for example, virtually everybody who is supplying that retailer has gone through the same sort of trauma as the retailer, but none of them will be protected in the same way.

Jack Shakespeare: I echo and endorse Martin’s point: one of the prospective risks is the uncertainty around the next few months. It feels like a bit of a “hold your breath” moment. You could talk about it being make or break for our sector and for different characteristics across sectors. A make or break part of the year for the gyms, pools and leisure centres sector is January to March. That is a hugely important quarter of the year, and it rolls into that time period. I would just echo that: the uncertainty of the next few months is a major risk.

[Peter Dowd (Bootle) (Lab)]

Q I want to tease out a little bit more on the extent of the impact on the Landlord and Tenant Act 1954. How wide is it? How many businesses are we talking about?

Andrew Goodacre: Contracted out?

[Peter Dowd]

Yes.

Andrew Goodacre: I would not know the percentages. Over the years, people have come out of it, sometimes incentivised by the landlord because it is preferential for the landlord to have the tenant contracted out. This is not my absolute field of expertise, but there is a wider view that the Landlord and Tenant Act could be rewritten as well in the near future, to reflect a more modern business environment. There are concerns about that Act in general.

On the issue of whether a business is in or not, we are told that everyone is in—it does not matter. The tenancy at will is slightly different. That is where a temporary tenancy agreement is created because the negotiation for a new one has not been completed, but a tenant is given the opportunity to operate at will until such time as a new one is agreed. A tenancy at will gives no protection whatsoever to either party. Either person could walk away at a week’s notice—at very short notice.

[Peter Dowd]

Q Do you think that is a significant lacuna?

Andrew Goodacre: We need to be clear that the Bill is designed, I believe, to protect businesses that were mandated to close in the timeframe of March ’20 to, depending on the sector, August ’21, and it should not matter whether that business is contracted out under the Landlord and Tenant Act—we are told it does not matter—and it should not matter if they have, through circumstances during that timeframe, ended up on a tenancy at will, simply because they could not agree their new tenancy under normal circumstances. Those are the areas where we want to make sure that the legal loopholes do not exist for highly paid lawyers to exploit.

[Peter Dowd]

Q I am sure the Minister is listening to that. I think he has clearly got that tagged.

Andrew Goodacre: I am sure he has. What we have been told is absolutely correct and reassuring. We just want to see it written with absolute clarity.

[Peter Dowd]

I am sure the Minister has got that tagged and will be paying due attention to it.

[The Chair]

I think for today, Mr Dowd, we will just ask the witnesses questions.

[Peter Dowd]

Q Thank you, Chair. In terms of the sectors that you think are most indebted, how are they currently coping? What are those sectors? We have touched on that a bit today. Which are the sectors that are currently most in debt? How are they managing?

Martin McTague: There is a very clear dividing line. The retail, hospitality and leisure sectors are the ones most badly damaged by this whole crisis. It also reflects the point I made earlier. There are extended supply chains within those sectors as well, which have also been affected. In terms of the top of the supply pyramid, retail, hospitality and leisure are without doubt the most affected sectors.

[Peter Dowd]

Q In terms of arbitration and the process available to commercial tenants, what can be done to ensure that they are aware of that process? We have lots of businesses under stress and strain, which we all understand—the Government understand that; we understand that. What do we need to do to get that message out and to give some reassurance?

Martin McTague: You will probably anticipate my first answer, which is that trade bodies are probably a good way of getting the message out. I think lawyers as well. The first thing that most people in this situation will do is to refer to their lawyer. There has to be a clear duty on lawyers to explain that arbitration is an option that they can take up.

In our experience, the smaller businesses tend to respond better to social media, so a BEIS publicity campaign based on social media contacts. The other obvious one is local government, which could do a lot to get this message back to retailers, especially in their area.

Jack Shakespeare: I support that, absolutely. As a trade body, engagement from the Department to us has been very positive. That communication has been great. We have been able to disseminate as much information as we could accurately and efficiently. I would echo that starting point. Again, use local government, lawyers and social media, recognise the characteristics across each sector and work with trade bodies to get the right messages across. They are obviously the experts in talking to those different businesses.

Andrew Goodacre: The communications have been covered well by my colleagues. To go back to your earlier point on what people have done to get through the crisis, we only do retail businesses, and they worked really hard as always. They have shown great creativity and determination, but one telling fact is that their level of debt has increased five times, by taking out bounce back loans, for instance. The larger retailers would have taken out a business interruption loan.

There was some research done in the summer of this year that suggested that the debt in independent businesses —which is not the usual business model; they do not normally do debt—is five times higher. It is estimated at about £2.2 billion. That has to be repaid. Then you have got rental debt on top of that. It leads back to this argument of viability. When you are assessing a business, you take a cold, hard look at its balance sheet. If a small business has a business loan or rental debt on there—and you have to counter the liability—before you know it, it is technically balance-sheet insolvent. It still may be viable as an operation, but there is a technical balance-sheet insolvency because of the level of liability it is are carrying, which it would not normally be carrying.

Whether it is rental or business loan debt, debt is a problem. Businesses have had to do it because they needed to survive. They wanted to trade and give themselves the chance of re-establishing themselves. Many are doing that. If we get a good Christmas, hopefully they can look to ’22 with some positivity.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy (Paul Scully)]

Q We talked a bit about the scale of the problem. Government signalled that we were going to legislate in this area. Can you give us an idea of what that did? Did it kick- start conversations? Did you see results that are now priced into the debate between landlords and tenants? Do you have any reflections on that?

Martin McTague: I saw a definite change in the atmosphere. I know the Minister will be aware of this, but I think there was some doubt as to whether you, as a Department, would go this far. Free-market instincts would suggest that you would not. As soon as you had made it clear that compulsory arbitration was going to play a part, the whole atmosphere in these negotiations seemed to change. People entered into much more constructive arrangements. Some of them completely avoided or did not want to go down an arbitration route and settle on payment terms, which I do not think they would have done prior to that decision, so I think it has had a wholly positive impact.

Andrew Goodacre: I would say that when we first started looking at the problem in 2020, it was 40% to 50% that had experienced challenges with trying to negotiate something with landlords. I said earlier that we are down to a hard-core 15%—maybe 20%, but it is probably nearer to 15%. There is entrenchment on both sides at that point. The message about sharing a burden that Jack referred to earlier is really crucial in that. People on both sides, where they are entrenched, realise that they stand the risk of losing something from that position. People are beginning to come to it now.

If I have a concern, it is about things I have been hearing from tenants who are saying that landlords are trying to leverage negotiations before getting to arbitration. I mentioned asking people to give up security, or even saying, “We’ll write off part of that debt, but we’re going to increase your overall rent up to this level.” They are using a bit of power, fear and the realisation that cash is king to the business in order to influence a decision that may not be in the best interests of the business in the longer term, but in the short term looks like a natural solution. Some of that may be right. I am not saying that it is not, but there is an indication of some of those behaviours starting to manifest.

Jack Shakespeare: To endorse that, I think it has changed the atmosphere. It has certainly turbo-charged the conversations. It goes back to a few things. The ability to disseminate the information is really important. You have picked up on the clarity before. How that comes out through trade bodies and goes out through lawyers and local government is really important. That will maintain the pace of conversations. It is really important that it does not drop, so that people access that information. The overriding sense of uncertainty looking ahead is a massive dynamic right now, but holistically it has really changed the atmosphere and advanced the conversations.

Employment and Trade Union Rights (Dismissal and Re-engagement) Bill

Peter Dowd Excerpts

Friday 22nd October 2021 Commons Chamber

[Paul Scully]

Thank you for that clarification, Madam Deputy Speaker. Indeed, I think Members from both sides of the House are taking advantage of the Tea Room, because both sides are lighter in numbers at the moment, but I always bow to your perspicacity. I would have thought that, in the last 20 minutes or so of the debate, Members pushing the Bill would want to hear the Government’s response to the merits or otherwise of the Bill, and what we are trying to do about the issue.

[Peter Dowd (Bootle) (Lab)]

The House of Commons Library has produced an excellent report on this subject, which says:

“Professor Alan Bogg, a Professor of Law at the University of Bristol, argued that under the current law the balance of power lies too much with the employer”.

Does the Minister agree?

[Paul Scully]

I think it depends on which employer. We are trying to make sure that we can root out bad employers who fail to understand that investing in their workforce and respecting their workforce is good for business as well as good for the workers. As Business Minister, I speak to businesses every day and I know that the vast majority of employers want to do the right thing. When it comes to fire and rehire, I have always been very clear that we expect all employers to treat employees fairly and to consider dismissal only as a last resort when all other options have been exhausted. It is completely unacceptable to use threats of fire and rehire as a negotiating tactic.

Space Debris

Peter Dowd Excerpts

Wednesday 14th July 2021 Westminster Hall

[Peter Dowd (in the Chair)]

I remind hon. Members that there have been some changes to normal practice in order to support the hybrid arrangements. Timings of debates have been amended to allow technical arrangements to be made for the next debate. There will also be suspensions between each debate. I remind Members participating physically and virtually that they must arrive for the start of debates, and are expected to remain for the entire debate.

I also remind Members participating virtually that they must leave their camera on for the duration of the debate, and that they will be visible at all times, both to one another and to us in the Boothroyd Room. If Members attending virtually have any technical problems, they should email the Westminster Hall Clerks’ email address, which is [e-mail]. Members attending physically should clean their spaces before they use them and before they leave the room. I also remind Members that Mr Speaker has stated that masks should be worn.