Stamp Duty Land Tax (Reduction) Bill

Peter Bone Excerpts

Committee stage
Tuesday 10th January 2023 Commons Chamber

[Sir Christopher Chope]

I am grateful to the Minister for that intervention. It comes down to how we define, “levelling up”. The point I am trying to make is that, if somebody is buying an average house in Christchurch, or in her constituency of Louth and Horncastle, it should not make any difference in terms of taxation whether the house is going to cost £405,000 or £200,000. Why should the person buying a house in Christchurch who wants to become a teacher or an NHS employee in the area not only have the burden of having the higher house price—she has referred to some of those issues—but have to pay £10,000 in SDLT for the privilege of moving into the Christchurch constituency to purchase an average-priced house? I do not see any justice in that at all. In levelling up, we should be putting those two categories of person on the same level when it comes to their liability for paying transaction taxes.

My hon. Friend the Member for South Thanet made the suggestion, which I have also made, that we should scrap SDLT. If we want to have a transaction tax, we should introduce one based on, for example, the size of a property, because that would be neutral; it would really be levelling up across the country. Obviously, it would be more popular with some people than with others, but it would certainly be very popular with my constituents and it would meet the criterion of levelling up.

[Mr Peter Bone (Wellingborough) (Con)]

It might be very popular in Christchurch, but it would be very unpopular in Wellingborough and it seems totally unfair to me.

[Sir Christopher Chope]

This is the challenge, because some people think that this would adversely affect them. When we were looking at whether we should change the domestic rating system, we always faced the problem of the people who were going to be worse off, who were always the losers and who were going to complain. I accept that, were this to be implemented in the way I am canvassing, it would create some losers who would be unpleasantly surprised. That leads me to my belief that SDLT and stamp duty should be abolished altogether. [Hon. Members: “Hear, hear.”] That is an issue on which we, as real Conservatives who believe in a homeowning democracy, should be able to agree—and it seems from that response that we can agree on it—rather than dividing again in trying to find an alternative to an already unsatisfactory tax.

Let us remind ourselves that, in the 1980s, when we had the beginnings of the property-owning democracy revolution, with more than 50% of people in the 25 to 34 age group being homeowners, we had a stamp duty regime where the maximum rate to purchase any house was 1%. Since this process started under the Blair Government and continued with the coalition—the Treasury is always seeing this as a cow to be milked for taxpayers’ benefit—the proportion of people able to afford to buy their homes has declined significantly. So the challenge I make to the Government, and I hope the Minister can respond to this, is: if we put stamp duty back to 1% as a maximum, what would that do to increase the number of transactions in the housing market, which, as others have said, is ostensibly the Government’s agenda?

On 23 September, HMRC’s policy paper “Stamp Duty Land Tax Reduction” set out the following policy objective:

“This measure is part of government’s commitment to support homeownership and promote mobility in the housing market, in turn supporting economic growth. Increased property transactions also add to residential investment and spending on durable goods.”

Unfortunately, that was withdrawn on 28 November. It would be interesting to know whether that policy objective has been retained by the Government even though the HMRC policy paper has been withdrawn. Another paper issued on 23 September was “The Growth Plan 2022”, which I thought was great, as did many of my constituents. Paragraph 3.30 of the plan stated that the changes to SDLT would

“take 200,000 homebuyers, including 60,000 first-time buyers, out of SDLT entirely.”

Today, however, we are discussing a proposal by the Government, by way of amendments to the Bill, that would put those 200,000 home buyers, 60,000 of them first-time buyers, back into SDLT. Do we really want to do that? Do we really think it will help to move the housing market, boost growth and help people to have the mobility to get to new jobs?

This is not just about people being able to move to a new job by moving house; we also need to think about the damage to the environment being done by the large number of people who are now, having no alternative, being forced to engage in long-distance commuting. Last week, I visited a school in my constituency. The teacher showing me around has been driving regularly from Wales to do a great teaching job in the Christchurch constituency. Fortunately, she is about to move into the constituency, but that is after many, many months of that long-distance commuting. That is highly undesirable. It is bad for the environment and bad for the people involved, because it means that they are sitting behind the wheel of a car for far too long during the working week.

Stamp duty land tax is targeted against homeowners and it will have an adverse effect on labour mobility. Yet the Prime Minister, in his speech on 4 January, was complaining—I agree with him on this—that a quarter of our country’s labour force is inactive and, in this Bill, he is introducing an additional tax on the very mobility that he should be espousing. As my hon. Friend the Member for South Thanet has said, SDLT is a tax on downsizing: it makes it much more difficult for anyone to receive a significant return by selling a larger house and purchasing a smaller one.

My biggest complaint, though, is that the provision hits hardest those for whom homeownership is least affordable. The latest figures, produced by the House of Commons Library in December, show that, in Christchurch, the average house price is now 11.8 times earnings. The national average in England and Wales of eight times is bad enough, but why are we imposing that extra burden on those buying houses in places such as Christchurch? The latest figures from the 2021 census show that the dream of a homeowning democracy espoused by generations of Conservative politicians since Margaret Thatcher, and first raised in 1975, is not one of this Government’s priorities.

Greening the Financial System

Peter Bone Excerpts

Wednesday 30th November 2022 Westminster Hall

[Several hon. Members rose—]

[Mr Peter Bone (in the Chair)]

Order. I will call Alexander Stafford next. I am helpfully provided with a list of people who are going to speak; by his name, it says, “Ignore”. However, as you are here, Sir, I will call you.

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[The Exchequer Secretary to the Treasury (James Cartlidge)]

It is a real pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Bone. I congratulate the hon. Member for Sheffield, Hallam (Olivia Blake). This is an incredibly important subject and a very timely debate. I thought she delivered her speech very clearly and eloquently and made some very important points, and I will do my best to respond to the various points that have been made by her and other colleagues. I thank them all for contributing to what has been a thoughtful debate.

I will just give a couple of personal perspectives. I had the privilege to represent the Treasury at the COP finance day. It was pretty much my second week in the job. It was striking that in discussions with financial counterparts, three of them raised the fact, without my prompting—just by coincidence—that their nations had raised their green sovereign bonds, or the equivalent instrument, in the UK. That is a real testament to the strength of the City. I think it was Mexico, Uruguay and Egypt, which of course was our host. That feeds into the point made by the hon. Member for Kilmarnock and Loudoun (Alan Brown), who spoke for the SNP: this should be seen as an economic opportunity. The journey to net zero goes hand in hand with strengthening our economy and taking advantage of economic opportunities. The hon. Member for Strangford (Jim Shannon) quite rightly referred to the green industrial revolution. I will go as far—[Interruption.]

[Mr Peter Bone (in the Chair)]

Order. I am sorry to interrupt the Minister, but the sitting will be suspended; we have a number of votes. If people return as soon as possible after the last vote, we will reconvene.

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[James Cartlidge]

To cut straight to the chase—given I was interrupted by the vote—we published the green finance strategy in 2019 and the “Greening Finance: A Roadmap to Sustainable Investing” policy paper in 2021. Together, they add up to an ambitious and detailed agenda on which we are making significant progress.

The hon. Member for Bristol East (Kerry McCarthy), who spoke for the Labour party, said that the market needs a clear steer—just as I need to get my breath back. To be clear to her, a central tenet of our approach has been to ensure that every financial decision takes climate change into account. This year, the UK made good on our commitment to introduce a mandatory Task Force on Climate-related Financial Disclosures, or TCFD. This is the first country to make a commitment to do so and we have now delivered. As set out in the greening finance roadmap, we will build on those rules with new SDR rules, the aim of which is a comprehensive, streamlined and co-ordinated reporting framework. SDR will incorporate international sustainability standards—I’m sorry, but I have completely lost my breath.

[Mr Peter Bone (in the Chair)]

Order. I am grateful to the Minister for running back—I know what it is like. We are pushing things a little earlier to help with later debates. My saying that might have given the Minister enough time to catch his breath.

[James Cartlidge]

You are very kind, Mr Bone. As I was saying, SDR will incorporate international sustainability standards, including the global baseline standards being developed by the International Financial Reporting Standards Foundation.

The SNP spokesman, the hon. Member for Kilmarnock and Loudoun, raised the subject of transition. A central element of SDR is transition plans for financial firms. We recognise the importance of requiring firms to set out how they will adapt as the world transitions towards a low-carbon economy. Transition plans form a key part of the UK’s ambition to become the world’s first net zero-aligned financial centre, and will see organisations setting out how they plan to adapt as the world transitions to a low-carbon economy. That is why we launched the transition plan taskforce in May to create the gold standard for transition planning. I was pleased to announce at COP a few weeks ago the launch of the TPT’s disclosure framework and implementation guidance consultation. The documents are a huge step and set out clear recommendations for the preparation and disclosure of high-quality transition plans.

Let me turn to the important issue of stewardship. More than 70% of the UK public say they want their investments to avoid harm and achieve good for people and planet. In 2020, on average UK savers put almost £1 billion a month into responsible investment funds—a clear sign that a shift is under way. As made clear in “Greening Finance: A Roadmap to Sustainable Investing”, the Government expect the UK’s pension investment sectors to act as responsible stewards of capital.

The FCA’s consultation on SDR and investment labels includes proposals to promote integrity and trust in the market, protect consumers, allow consumers to better compare products and reduce the risk of what my hon. Friend the Member for Rother Valley (Alexander Stafford) quite rightly referred to as greenwashing. In November, the FCA convened the vote reporting group to develop a more comprehensive and standardised vote disclosure regime.

On the specifics of the greening financing programme, Members will know that the UK kick-started a greening finance programme with a record-breaking debut sovereign green bond last September. The UK plans on raising an additional £10 billion from green gilts this financial year, with transactions worth £6 billion so far. That means we have raised more than £22 billion from green gilts and retail green savings bonds since September 2021, helping to finance projects to tackle climate change and other environmental challenges. The world sees the progress we have made. There is a lot of talk about the competitiveness of the City and UK financial institutions. Just last month, London was once again ranked one of the leading centres in the world for green finance in Z/Yen’s global green finance index.

Let me turn briefly to the UK Infrastructure Bank, for which we are legislating at this very moment to put it on a sound footing. The bank has £22 billion of capital to invest in infrastructure that supports two objectives: helping to tackle climate change and levelling up the UK. Based on the 10 investments it has announced so far, UKIB estimates it has already crowded in £4.5 billion of private investment. Notably, its first private-sector deal was to support a £500 million subsidy-free solar fund—a good example of exactly what we are setting out to achieve.

Of course, it is about not just tackling climate change but the key issue of nature. The Government have invested significantly in financial sector transparency and the disclosure of nature-related financial risk. The UK is the largest financial backer of the taskforce on nature-related financial disclosures and supports its work developing a framework for financial institutions and corporates to assess and report on their nature-related dependencies, impacts and risks.

Let me turn to some of the points raised by colleagues. My hon. Friend the Member for Rother Valley—we were right not to ignore him—made a good contribution, and I note his previous work with WWF before becoming an MP. He is right about green taxonomy—it must be about quality not speed—and I look forward to receiving a copy of his report. The Government will be engaging with the market on the design of a policy approach to guide investors on how they can best support the transition to net zero, and the value of taxonomy rests on its credibility as a practical and useful tool for regulators, companies and investors. It is important that we learn from the approach taken in other jurisdictions and take the time to get this right for the UK and the market.

[James Cartlidge]

I would never say to my hon. Friend that he should be ignored. On that basis, I will certainly consider his invitation, alongside reading his interesting report.

The hon. Member for Sheffield, Hallam raised the issue of insulation. Our new £1 billion ECO+ scheme will see hundreds of thousands of homes receiving new home insulation worth approximately £310 a year each. Of course, the autumn statement made significant and ambitious commitments on energy efficiency.

The hon. Members for Bristol East and for Strangford spoke about charging points. Since 2020 we have committed £1.6 billion on charging points, but I know that people want to see us go further and faster, and we are making huge progress on the transition to electric vehicles.

The hon. Member for Strangford and my right hon. Friend the Member for Epsom and Ewell (Chris Grayling), who is not in his place, mentioned the important issue of deforestation. The Environment Act 2021 includes due diligence requirements for companies to check and eliminate illegal deforestation, and a significant pledge was made at COP26. To be clear about financial services, the UK is focused on transparency with regard to deforestation and has included that very point about disclosing that sort of activity in our disclosure framework, as part of the taskforce on nature-related financial disclosures. That is the key point about the financial services sector: it is all about disclosure. [Interruption.]

[Mr Peter Bone (in the Chair)]

Order. I am afraid the sitting is suspended. It will be great to see you all back here in 15 minutes.

Prime Minister’s Chief of Staff Appointment

Peter Bone Excerpts

Monday 7th February 2022 Commons Chamber

[Michael Ellis]

To be fair, I think that I am responsible for answering parliamentary questions, and I think I am right in saying that the statistics have dramatically improved in the last four and a half months.

[Mr Peter Bone (Wellingborough) (Con)]

I certainly welcome the fact that unelected officials are being replaced by Members of Parliament in the Government, because one problem in recent years has been the drift, with Government and Parliament going in opposite directions, so having Members of Parliament in these positions will improve things. Does the Minister agree that, had this change been imposed a while ago, it would have been great fun to have had Dominic Cummings at the Dispatch Box to answer questions?

[Michael Ellis]

I am not going to agree with my hon. Friend on that point, if he will forgive me. However, I do agree with the substance of his point—he has hit the nail on the head—that accountability, transparency and the link with Back Benchers of this House will be delivered thanks to this appointment.

Economic Update

Peter Bone Excerpts

Thursday 3rd February 2022 Commons Chamber

[Rishi Sunak]

Just to confirm for the hon. Lady, it is council tax bands A to D, so it is four out of every five households across England. Obviously, that will vary by region. I can confirm that it will be fully Exchequer-funded and, on top of that, there will be a discretionary fund of around £150 million, for which the Department for Levelling Up, Housing and Communities will decide the best allocation formula. Local authorities will be able to use that to help those low-income households that happen to live in higher council tax band properties and those people, such as students, who are exempt from paying council tax at all, but whom we would want to get that support to.

[Mr Peter Bone (Wellingborough) (Con)]

Conservatives believe in holding taxes down and putting more money in people’s pockets so that they can decide how to spend it. Socialists believe in raising taxes and then choosing to give it back, in the form of discounts and rebates, to selected people who the Government think need them. Could the Chancellor explain his approach in increasing national insurance contributions and then handing money back to different people through rebates and discounts? Is that a Conservative approach, or is it a socialist approach?

[Rishi Sunak]

With the greatest respect to my hon. Friend, I also believe that it is a Conservative approach to be responsible with this nation’s public finances. I believe that, after recovering from the worst economic shock in 300 years, where borrowing spiralled to levels that we have not seen since world war two, it is right and responsible to tackle that and get our borrowing and debt down to sustainable levels. That is why I have had to make difficult decisions, but also fund the country’s No. 1 priority: the NHS and the unacceptably high and growing number of people waiting for operations. That is what that funding will do. It is right that we provide a secure, long-term, sustainable funding stream for the country’s No. 1 priority, and people should be reassured that every penny of that levy is going to go to the thing that they care most about.

Rebated Fuel Rules: Construction Industry

Peter Bone Excerpts

Wednesday 19th January 2022 Westminster Hall

[Mr Peter Bone (in the Chair)]

Before we move to the next debate, I remind Members that they are expected to wear face coverings when they are not speaking in the debate. This is in line with current Government guidance and that of the House of Commons Commission. I remind Members that they are asked by the House to have a covid lateral flow test before coming on to the estate. Please also give each other and members of staff space when seated, and when entering and leaving the room. I will have to call the wind-ups for this debate at 5.25 pm. I have been notified of two Back-Bench speakers. I hope that hon. Members can work out the timing. I call Carla Lockhart.

--- Later in debate ---

[Dave Doogan]

Will the Minister give way?

[Mr Peter Bone (in the Chair)]

Order. Before the Minister decides whether to take that intervention, she should know that she is well over her allocated time. We have to allow two minutes for the proposer to wind up. The Minister has 20 seconds.

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[Carla Lockhart]

I thank hon. Members for participating in the debate. I will gallop through some of the points that were raised. The right hon. Member for Orkney and Shetland (Mr Carmichael) made some excellent points around the fact that the Government are targeting low-hanging fruit. He also said that construction is facing a perfect storm and that many have secured future products and are now tied into a price and unable to claw it back, which will drive up the cost of houses and public expenditure.

My hon. Friend the Member for Strangford (Jim Shannon) eloquently made the point that this proposal will have a ripple effect, and gave excellent examples of businesses in his constituency that will be affected. Take waste management. What is more important than getting rid of our waste? But we are putting those companies in jeopardy.

The hon. Member for Angus (Dave Doogan) talked about a tax grab—he absolutely nailed that point. Alternatives are just not there, and the Government should look at how realistic it is that those alternatives will be there in the next two months. He also made a point about the devolved Administrations.

The hon. Member for Glenrothes (Peter Grant) talked about the unintended consequences and again asked the Government to ditch the plan. This is cliff-edge stuff that will ultimately have a macroeconomic impact. The shadow Minister, the hon. Member for Ealing North (James Murray), highlighted the fact that we are all committed to being more environmentally friendly, but, again, mentioned the impact on fraud and fuel theft.

I thank the Minister. I have to say that I do not feel that we got the answers today. There is absolutely zero—

[Mr Peter Bone (in the Chair)]

Order. I am really sorry; we could clearly have carried on for longer, but time has beaten us.

Downing Street Garden Event

Peter Bone Excerpts

Tuesday 11th January 2022 Commons Chamber

[Michael Ellis]

It is not for me to pass judgment or pass sentence. The natural order of justice, as I am sure the right hon. Gentleman knows, is that a fair and impartial investigation takes place before there is a judge, jury and executioner. That investigation needs to take its natural course in an orderly way, rather than guilt or innocence being judged beforehand.

[Mr Peter Bone (Wellingborough) (Con)]

I of course have great confidence in the Prime Minister and the way he has been governing the country, but does the Minister agree that the House needs to have the report urgently so that we can debate it and reach a conclusion? I was slightly worried when he said that this would have to be paused if there was a Metropolitan police investigation. Is he confident that the House will have the report quickly, and if so, could he indicate when?

[Michael Ellis]

The Prime Minister did ask for the investigation to be conducted swiftly, and I think that is on the record. As to how long it lasts, I do not know, because we have not stipulated a time. Sue Gray is conducting the investigation independently of the Executive’s directions, as my hon. Friend and the House would expect. We hope to have a result swiftly, but that will be a matter for her.

Downing Street Christmas Parties Investigation

Peter Bone Excerpts

Thursday 9th December 2021 Commons Chamber

[Michael Ellis]

The issue of the nature of the gathering goes to the heart of the investigation. Therefore, the answer to the hon. Lady’s first question about the nature of the gathering will be established by the Cabinet Secretary, assisted by the Government Legal Department, who will inform the police if any criminality is uncovered. So those questions will be answered in due course.

[Mr Peter Bone (Wellingborough) (Con)]

I should say at the start that I think Boris—sorry, the Prime Minister—is doing a great job of running the country. I congratulate the hon. Member for Putney (Fleur Anderson) on securing the urgent question. I think the Paymaster General, my right hon. and learned Friend the Member for Northampton North (Michael Ellis) missed one of the questions she put, so may I put the question again? It is quite right for the Prime Minister to come to this House and say that he was told by someone, accepted it and did so in good faith. I want to know who the person was who told him. Perhaps the excellent Minister—he does not need any protection—will tell us that answer.

Northern Ireland Protocol: EU Negotiations

Peter Bone Excerpts

Thursday 18th November 2021 Commons Chamber

[Michael Ellis]

The hon. Gentleman is quite wrong; the reality of the matter is that a written ministerial statement is informing the House, and it was laid yesterday. He makes a point about business. I think I am right in saying that in today’s Financial Times there is a report that Marks & Spencer says that the proposals by the EU would not cut red tape. It is important to bear in mind that negotiations are in progress; it is not the right forum, at this stage in delicate negotiations, to try to do that in this honourable House. What is right is that Lord Frost continues his discussions with vice-president Šefčovič, and that is exactly what he is doing.

[Mr Peter Bone (Wellingborough) (Con)]

I congratulate the right hon. Member for Orkney and Shetland (Mr Carmichael) on obtaining this important urgent question. May I take up a difference with him on one thing? Will my right hon. and learned Friend the Paymaster General confirm that the triggering of article 16 should be based on circumstances and not on any particular date?

[Michael Ellis]

If the triggering of article 16 needs to occur, there are defined circumstances that would need to be ascertained—in my view, those circumstances are ascertained.

Health and Social Care Levy

Peter Bone Excerpts

1st reading
Wednesday 8th September 2021 Commons Chamber

[Mr Steve Baker (Wycombe) (Con)]

I want to begin by thinking through what Labour would do if it were in power. [Interruption.] I am very grateful that the hon. Member for Brighton, Kemptown (Lloyd Russell-Moyle) has just outlined some of the things that he might do. If I understand the Labour Front Benchers correctly, I think they suggested that they would use stamp duty or various transaction taxes on assets. I am grateful that Ministers are here, because I think that they know, as I know, that there is no way that the money needed would be raised—[Interruption.] I am grateful that the Minister says, “Correct”. It says in the document that not enough money would be raised from stamp duty and transaction taxes on assets. It is fanciful, and the hon. Gentleman’s proposals are likewise, I am afraid.

We would need to change one of the big taxes. Would Labour Members put up VAT from 20%? Of course they would not because it is regressive. It is a bad idea. It is already too high and it already hits everyone, so they would not put up VAT. Would they put up income tax? I think they would get the same advice that these Ministers have had from the same officials. I think they might be advised that we are already in a position where income tax is rather too dependent on the decisions of a small number of top earners. This is the sort of evidence we have had at the Treasury Committee for a very long time, so I think that we would find that, actually, they were not able to put up income tax.

So where would that leave Labour? That would leave it with the big tax that has always, as the document points out, been used to fund health and social care: national insurance contributions. I think that Ministers, if they were from Labour, would be presented with a distributional analysis like the one I have here, which our Ministers have. Labour Ministers would look at it and see that actually, distributionally, it is really only the top two deciles who are net losers. Deciles from the bottom through to No. 8 are either gaining or, in the case of the eighth decile, right there in net overall, neither gaining nor losing. I think that what Labour would do if it was in power is what it did last time it was in power and needed money for the NHS: it would put up national insurance contributions.

My constituents in Wycombe are very reasonable people. While knocking on doors in Marlow Bottom just last Saturday, I discovered constituents who recognise that we have suffered an enormous pandemic that has done so much to damage the public finances and people’s lives, as other hon. Members have said. But where are we going? That is the second point that I want to touch on. This is what I think Labour would do in power, and that is the problem—sorry, Ministers.

If we look, as I am sure colleagues have done, at the future debt trajectory for the United Kingdom produced by the Office for Budget Responsibility, we can see that our public finances are in an unsustainable state. I could easily give quotations—they are in my pocket—but if I recall correctly, the OBR’s 2018 report describes debt getting to about 260% by about 2057 and says something like, “Of course, policy would have to change by then.” I have always taken that to be a euphemism for “Of course, we would have to default on our age-related spending promises.” That is the consistent finding of the Office for Budget Responsibility on our long-term public finances. Sooner or later—in all our lifetimes, hopefully—we will find that the state cannot afford the promises that it has made to older people.

That is the problem that we face today. It is not about the national insurance contribution rise planned today, which I believe is a levy that the Labour party would adopt if it were in power; the problem is that we have no better ideas than putting up taxes to raise more money for public services.

[Mr Peter Bone (Wellingborough) (Con)]

My hon. Friend makes the powerful point that this is what Labour would do in power. Why are we doing it as Conservatives?

[Mr Baker]

That is the fundamental problem that I face today, because I believe that this is just the beginning of the generational crisis of our inability to fund the promises that have been made progressively for more than 100 years, since the National Insurance Act 1911. I have talked about it ad nauseam, particularly in relation to a Bank for International Settlements paper that sets out charts showing that all western welfare states, and indeed Japan, are in the same boat. Some of the cuts to age-related spending that would need to be made to balance the books are just implausible.

We are in a dreadful position. Historically, when this country has been in a dreadful position economically and socially and on a trajectory towards ruin, there has proven to be only one party capable of rescuing the situation, and of course it is the Conservative party. At some stage in our lifetime, the Conservative party will have to rediscover what it stands for, because I have to say that at the moment we keep doing things we hate because we feel that we must.

My hon. Friend the Minister for Covid Vaccine Deployment stood at the Dispatch Box today and explained that vaccine passports go against his instincts and those of my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister; at one point I think he said that they went against everything that he stood for. We have heard hon. Members say—there are quotes on the internet from former Ministers and Cabinet members—that they hate raising taxes, but do not see how they cannot vote for it. Tonight, colleagues will say, with a good heart, “I just must,” because we all know that we cannot let NHS waiting lists get to where they are going as a result of the pandemic. Well, I know that too, but this I also know: we are going to have to do things differently.

We have to rediscover our confidence as free market Conservatives and the radical reforming zeal of the 2010 Parliament and the big society. We have to show people that we can secure a bright, prosperous and free future that provides for their needs in their old age, but without coming back to higher taxes every time there is a squeeze on the public finances. Down that road is ruin. We all know that eventually socialists run out of other people’s money.

I am sorry, Ministers, but I cannot vote with the Government tonight. Some of us have to be seen to stand for another path.

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[Mr Peter Bone (Wellingborough) (Con)]

It is a great pleasure to follow my hon. Friend the Member for Guildford (Angela Richardson), who set out her position very clearly.

I have to say that this is the first time in all my time in Parliament that a Ways and Means motion has been debated all day. It seems to me that this has been more like a general debate on the NHS and social care. I remind the House that Parliament says:

“A ways and means resolution is needed to authorise the creation, extension or increase of taxes or other charges…Ways and means motions are most commonly put to the House for agreement immediately after second reading”.

In other words, there is a Bill that we discuss; it is laid out there. There should have been a social care Bill. We should have had that Bill and been able to debate the principle of it and then immediately afterwards voted on the Ways and Means, but we have got this mixed up with giving more money to the national health service.

A Ways and Means motion to increase a tax in order to pay more money to the health service is quite acceptable. I mean, we are creating a new tax. The motion today does not refer to 1.5% or to how much will be spent on social care. It just says that we are bringing in a new tax. We are doing that, though, without having the detail. If this was a Budget, the Chancellor would stand up and make a powerful speech, and there would be an immense amount of applause on that day for what he said. People would then read the Red Book, for five days they would unpick the Budget, and then we would vote on the Ways and Means motion.

I am very unhappy with today’s procedure. Although I support the idea of more money for the NHS and I have no objection to it being done through national insurance, I absolutely object to saying that this has anything to do with the Health and Care Bill, because that has not been through the House. Social care should be paid for separately. We should have the Bill and debate it, it should go through Committee stage and through the Lords, and then it should be paid for. I have no idea which clever-clogs in No. 10 thought it was a great idea to mix these two things up. Social care is one of the most important things—if not the most important—that this House will have to decide on. It should be done separately and properly.

The Opposition should be working with us. They have scored so many political points today. My hon. Friend the Member for Milton Keynes North (Ben Everitt) said it: last night was one of those nights when we do not sleep because we are worrying about how to vote. Should I vote for this because I want to support the Prime Minister? Should I vote against it because I do not agree with the principle? Or should I do nothing because I think it is a good idea and a bad idea at the same time, because the Government have mixed the two things up? I will make my decision after having listened to the shadow Minister and the Minister; as of now, I have no idea what I am going to do tonight.

Oral Answers to Questions

Peter Bone Excerpts

Tuesday 7th September 2021 Commons Chamber

[Jesse Norman]

As I have said, both the Government and Her Majesty’s Revenue and Customs take these cases extremely seriously, which is why HMRC has put in place extra care and support for people who may be affected by tax issues of this and other kinds. The fact remains that we have had a review. I might refer the hon. Gentleman to the words of his colleague, the hon. Member for Ilford North (Wes Streeting), who said of Sir Amyas Morse who did the review that it was

“a thorough piece of work…we thank him…He has done a great service to Parliament and to the wider public debate.––[Official Report, Finance Public Bill Committee, 4 June 2020; c. 33.]

He was right about that and the Labour party has been right not to have opposed this policy at any point during its passage through Parliament.

[Mr Peter Bone (Wellingborough) (Con)]

The problem that Members have on both sides of this House is that ordinary people were duped into something and it has effectively become a retrospective piece of legislation. I thought the way that the shadow Minister, the hon. Member for Ealing North (James Murray), approached this was very reasonable. HMRC is not taking the right approach. Perhaps the Government could look at that again.

[Jesse Norman]

I thank my hon. Friend for his question. I have mentioned the extra care and support that HMRC has put in place. I have mentioned the extremely careful approach that it has taken with people who may be facing the loan charge. As he will be aware, it has not initiated insolvency proceedings against any taxpayer for a loan charge debt and that in itself is emblematic of the care and attention that it is taking with this subject.