Bedroom Tax (Scotland)

Pete Wishart Excerpts

Thursday 8th May 2014 Westminster Hall

[Mr Davidson]

I am glad to hear that. That could have been done throughout the whole of Scotland. The Scottish Government could have said to social housing providers, “Any arrears you have, you write them off, and we will refund you the money.” That is perfectly legal and could have been done, but they deliberately chose not to do so.

We had a Scottish Government resolutely seeking to make a political point by refusing to fund mitigation of the difficulties caused by the bedroom tax in any way other than by getting the cap on DHPs lifted, and a Conservative and Liberal Government who were, at that stage, resolute in saying that they would not move because the Scottish Government already had powers to deal with the issue if they so desired, and the people of Scotland were potentially caught between the two. In those circumstances, it is difficult for either side to find a way to change their position without appearing weak, or making it look as though they had the wrong solution in the first place, or suggesting that anything they say at any particular moment may be merely transitory and can be changed.

With the debates we are having at the moment about the referendum, I understand that it is much more difficult for anyone to change their adopted stance on any issue. In those circumstances, I think it is to the credit of the Secretary of State for Scotland and the Under-Secretary of State that they have persuaded their colleagues in the Westminster Government to change the line and to give powers to the Scottish Parliament to extend or to increase the amount of money spent on DHPs. We have to recognise that that has been a change in the Government’s policy, and one that I welcome. However, there are still difficulties with it.

First, there will be a delay in the transfer of powers. I hope that the Minister will tell us that every possible step will be taken to make that transfer as speedy as possible. Secondly, the Scottish Affairs Committee does not believe that DHPs are the best way to address the problem because an application is required, and in the categories of people I described earlier, we found many who were either unable or unwilling to make an application. We therefore want to discuss at some stage—I will recommend to the Committee that we explore these issues further—whether the methodologies that local authorities have at the moment are adequate.

In our view, it is legally possible for local authorities to abandon the system of application and simply ask someone whether they want a DHP. If the principle is that everyone who applies for one gets one, presumably the sort of 95-page forms that some local authorities are using are not needed. If the payment is going to be automatic, the equivalent of the Chinese general baptising his troops with a hose could be adopted and anyone who was simply asked whether they wanted DHP could be given one, but that approach has yet to be tested.

We also want to clarify what the position will be regarding last year. If the bedroom tax is evil, malignant, cruel and unfair this year, and the Scottish Government are prepared to make money available to mitigate its effects this year, what are they prepared to do about last year’s effects? Something that is wrong this year was surely equally wrong last year. There are people with arrears of the bedroom tax as a result of non-payment last year. The Committee’s view is clear: those debts should be written off. We believe that the Scottish Government should take steps to write off the arrears of bedroom tax accumulated by Scots last year. They have the power and they have the money; what they possibly lack is the will, but we will no doubt hear about that later on.

[Pete Wishart (Perth and North Perthshire) (SNP)]

Will the hon. Gentleman give way?

[Mr Davidson]

Oh, I am glad to see that a Member from the Scottish National party is not only here, but prepared to intervene in a debate on the Scottish Affairs Committee’s work.

[Pete Wishart]

I am not going to go into the reasons why we do not participate in the hon. Gentleman’s Committee.

I accept the Labour party’s sincerity about scrapping the bedroom tax—it has said that it will do so at the earliest opportunity—but will the hon. Gentleman direct me to the Labour shadow Minister’s comment that Labour will pay in full any arrears of the bedroom tax built up in the rest of the UK? How much would it cost the rest of the UK? How would the UK Government pay for it?

[Mr Davidson]

Regrettably, we are not in power at the moment. We do not have the power either in Scotland or in the UK to take such decisions. However, the SNP is in power in Scotland, and it could do that tomorrow—well, not tomorrow actually, because the Scottish Parliament is closed tomorrow, but it could do so next week. Indeed, I am particularly glad that the hon. Gentleman asked me that question, because yesterday in the Scottish Parliament, Jackie Baillie asked whether the Scottish Government would support a proposal that they cancel out any bedroom tax for 2013-14, but answer from Nicola Sturgeon came there none.

I understand the point being made. The hon. Gentleman wants to play political games, saying, “We are not going to do this, because what have you said about it?” Let us lay aside these games. The question is—

[Mr Davidson]

I apologise, Mr Bone. I know that you have opinions on a whole range of matters, some of which I agree with, but this is not one I would want to draw you into.

The Scottish Government have a responsibility to act now, because they have the powers. To do nothing is a choice. The question is whether they will take up the exhortation from the Scottish Affairs Committee and Labour in the Scottish Parliament to pay off arrears now.

A second, related issue—I understand that this point is more difficult, but it is one on which I think we have to agree—is that of moral hazard: that if we write off arrears, we will send out a message that, in many ways, not paying rent is a lifestyle choice or is acceptable. I do not take that view. If we write off bedroom tax arrears, we also have to recognise the position of those who scrimped and scraped, who in many cases used their savings if they have them, or who borrowed from friends and family, in order to pay their bedroom tax. It is simply unfair that some people might have their bedroom tax written off, and others might also have the situation—[Interruption.] The SNP has chosen not to participate in the Committee’s deliberations, and then the hon. Member for Perth and North Perthshire wants to come along and heckle. I am quite prepared to take interventions. He should stand up like a man and give us his view.

[Pete Wishart]

Will the hon. Gentleman either say yes or no to this? I accept that the Labour party will scrap the bedroom tax if it comes to power, but does he believe in principle that a Labour Government should recompense every victim of the bedroom tax? Does he believe that that is what a Labour Government should do?

[Mr Davidson]

I do. That is absolutely and completely my view. I cannot be any clearer than that. I persuaded the Committee of that in our report and I hope in due course to persuade the Labour party of it. That is my view, and it is the view of all the bedroom tax campaigners that I have met and of local authorities. It is also the view of the SNP chair of the Dundee housing committee. He wanted to see the Scottish Government not only writing off the arrears, but refunding the amount of money that had already been paid.

Let me be clear about what the Committee is recommending and what it believes. If the bedroom tax is going to be dealt with this year, however inadequately—we have difficulties with the methodology that the SNP Government insist on using—we hope that in the spirit of unity and harmony that so often characterises political debate in Scotland, there will be an understanding that if the DHP methodology does not work successfully, other routes and channels will be found, so that the objective we share can be achieved, which is to have all the effects of the bedroom tax written off for the current year. However, we have to be absolutely clear that what we want is the arrears written off for last year and full refunds for the years coming, as a prelude to the next Labour Government abolishing the bedroom tax altogether, not in 2016 or at some mythical date after independence in the event of a yes vote in the referendum, but when a Labour Government come to power.

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[Graeme Morrice (Livingston) (Lab)]

It is, as always, a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Bone. I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Glasgow South West (Mr Davidson), the Chair of the Select Committee on Scottish Affairs, of which I, too, am a member, on securing this debate on one of the most important but depressing subjects that I have had to consider since my election to the House.

The bedroom tax—I will refer to it as a tax, because our evidence has shown that the vast majority of those who are affected have absolutely no option but to pay it, and are totally unable to change their circumstances to avoid it—is one of the worst pieces of legislation that I have ever encountered. I therefore fully endorse the conclusions of the Committee’s report. As a member of the Committee, I have heard overwhelming evidence from every corner of Scotland that the policy is completely failing our constituents, our housing providers and even each of the Government’s stated outcomes. It does not make the social housing system fairer or more efficient, and it will not save the Government money in the long run. The bedroom tax succeeds only in punishing those with the smallest stake in society at a time when they are being assaulted from multiple directions by the Government, who refuse to prioritise their day-to-day struggle.

Ironically, the policy came into effect in the same month that the Prime Minister announced tax cuts for the privileged few who earn in excess of £150,000 a year. Nothing that I heard in evidence to the Committee came close to justifying why, although ripping off some of the poorest and most vulnerable citizens is an absolute necessity, somehow it is economically and morally proper to pay for tax breaks for the super-rich.

When we took evidence in West Lothian, where my constituency is located, we were told by the local authority that more than 50% of tenants are now in arrears, and that 500 households have tried to downsize to avoid the bedroom tax, but that because of pressures on the housing stock, only a small number have been successfully rehoused. To put the problem into perspective, West Lothian council estimates that at the present rate of transfer, it could take between 10 and 15 years to allow all the tenants who want to downsize to do so. That does not take into account new applicants who join the waiting list over that period. Alison Kerr, chair of the West Lothian council tenants’ panel, told the Committee of the urgency of acting now, saying that the longer the bedroom tax was allowed to exist unmitigated, the greater the number of West Lothian tenants who would have to make the impossible choice between eating and heating.

Of course, it is not only the UK Government who are to blame for the debacle. The Scottish Government could have acted much sooner to mitigate fully the effects of the bedroom tax in Scotland. I find it strange that the Scottish Government have not once approached the Committee to challenge statements made in evidence that they have had the powers necessary to mitigate those effects from the start.

[Pete Wishart]

We have just committed to mitigating fully the impact of the bedroom tax. While the hon. Gentleman is going on his tour of Governments throughout the UK, what does he make of his Welsh Labour colleagues in the Welsh Government, who have done absolutely nothing to mitigate the impact of the bedroom tax in their jurisdiction?

[Graeme Morrice]

I am not qualified to respond on the situation in Wales. Today’s debate is about Scotland, so if the hon. Gentleman does not mind, I will continue to focus on that.

The point that I was making before the hon. Gentleman intervened was confirmed by the Under-Secretary of State for Scotland in oral evidence to the Committee on Tuesday, and by the Chief Secretary to the Treasury in the past. After months of posturing, the Scottish Government this week ended their ridiculous game of brinkmanship with the UK Government when an agreement was finally reached to lift the spending cap, allowing the bedroom tax to be effectively ended in Scotland. I think I speak for many when I say that that should have happened much earlier. It is thanks to the Labour Members of the Scottish Parliament that a solution has finally been arrived at, after a year of attempts by Scottish Labour to drag the SNP into accepting that action could be taken in Scotland to bin this iniquitous tax. Late action is better than no action, and it will come as a relief to many Scots that the bedroom tax can and, I hope, will be fully mitigated.

I find it incredible that the Scottish Government did not even contact the UK Government until recently to try to find a way to end the bedroom tax in Scotland, just over a year before it was introduced and more than two years since the law was first enacted. People can draw their own conclusions about the reason why, but political posturing and blaming others hardly demonstrates responsibility or maturity; moreover, it lets down those who need our help the most.

To return to the report, witness after witness from London to the Western Isles told the Committee that they wanted the tax to be scrapped. Many felt abandoned by both Governments, who have had the power but not, until the eleventh hour, the political will or inclination to do something about it. However, although I welcome yesterday’s announcement on Scotland, more must be done throughout the rest of the UK. We have heard in several testimonies that the fail-safes to protect the most vulnerable are inadequate and largely do not reach those most in need, to the despair of housing providers. We heard from those on the front line that, despite repeated contact, a sizeable number of affected tenants do not engage, or are unable to engage sufficiently, with housing suppliers in order even to apply for a discretionary housing payment.

When the Select Committee visited my Livingston constituency, Donald Forrest, head of finance and estates at West Lothian council, told us that, despite considerable efforts since April last year to contact and engage with 2,195 tenants who are affected by the bedroom tax, between 500 and 600 tenants had still not applied. Craig Martin, leader of Falkirk council, told the Select Committee that 50% of tenants applying for DHPs in his locality had some form of recognised mental health problem. Such responses were not untypical of the evidence we heard from a range of witnesses from across Scotland and beyond. If DHPs are not reaching those most in need, then simply expanding the scheme’s eligibility to catch everyone is no guarantee of protecting anyone. The simplest way to protect all tenants is to either alter the scheme drastically or scrap it altogether, which is the Select Committee’s preferred option.

Simply put, at the heart of the bedroom tax debate is the worst kind of politics, with Scottish social tenants finding themselves stuck between two Governments: one distracted by a referendum on separation, who acted only when forced to do so by the Scottish Labour party and grass-roots campaigners; and another who want to look tough on welfare and spending, despite every indicator telling them that they are failing. The Scottish local authority body, the Convention of Scottish Local Authorities, has released figures showing that this year alone the bedroom tax will actually cost an additional £60 million to implement in Scotland.

Even after yesterday’s announcement, my message to the decision makers in both the Scottish and UK Governments is simple: they must stop the bickering, stop the finger-pointing, stop using some of the most vulnerable people in society as political pawns and stand behind the Select Committee to sort out the problem using the power that the Scottish people have granted them. The Labour party in Scotland has forced the SNP Scottish Government to this point, and has offered bipartisan support to help to find the money in the Scottish budget to sort things out. I sincerely hope that, now that we have a clear course of action and offers of help from almost every side, we will be able to get on with our day job of helping our constituents.

Of course, whatever happens, in May next year, Labour will repeal the bedroom tax as one of its first acts of national Government.

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[Pamela Nash (Airdrie and Shotts) (Lab)]

It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Bone.

It is good for Scottish Members of Parliament to have an opportunity to debate the bedroom tax and its impact on Scottish constituents and constituencies. As well as examining the specific problems and effects in Scotland, the report considers what should be done to mitigate those problems. We were inspired to produce our report by the policy’s impact on our constituents and the constituents of colleagues across Scotland—across parties, Members were concerned. I was delighted to welcome the Committee to my hometown of Airdrie to see the impact of the bedroom tax and what is being done in Airdrie and throughout north Lanarkshire.

Before the inquiry started, I campaigned on the bedroom tax in my constituency. At the beginning of my campaign I started a joint campaign with the local Scottish National party. That had not been done before, but we came together as two local political parties because we were united in our anger at the UK Government—the Tories and the Lib Dems—for introducing the policy, which was doing so much harm in our local area. Unfortunately, it quickly became clear to us in Scotland that the Scottish Government were not doing everything they could have done, and with regret the happy partnership ended rather quickly.

When the Chair of the Select Committee, my hon. Friend the Member for Glasgow South West (Mr Davidson), spoke earlier, the hon. Member for Perth and North Perthshire (Pete Wishart) was chuntering as usual, and I want to get it on the record. What he said—please correct me if I am wrong—is that it was ridiculous that the Chair of the Select Committee dared to mention that the Scottish Government had played politics on this issue by announcing that the bedroom tax has now been fully mitigated.

The Scottish Government let people suffer for more than a year. Some 82,000 households across Scotland have suffered, losing, on average, £50 a week. By definition, those are the poorest households: they are claiming housing benefit because they are low-income families and low-income households, and 80% of those households have a disabled member. Perhaps the Scottish National party should have spent more time considering what it could do, rather than pointing the finger at us and at the Labour party as a whole.

I was not going to spend time on this, but I feel that I have to defend myself and the Labour party. The hon. Member for Banff and Buchan (Dr Whiteford) mentioned the Opposition day vote on the bedroom tax. I asked to intervene, but she was in full flow. I agree that that number of Labour MPs should not have been paired, and I am already on the record as having said that—I have said it publicly and I have said it locally. But it is misleading to say, I assume accidentally, that those pairings changed the outcome of the vote. Every single Labour MP was paired with a Government MP, as was confirmed by the parties at the time. It is not true that there would have been a difference in the outcome of the vote. We have to put that on the record, and it is nothing short of hypocritical for the SNP to say that when every single SNP Member of Parliament has missed a vote on bedroom tax legislation.

[Pete Wishart]

That isn’t true.

[Pamela Nash]

I have had it checked by the House of Commons Library. I voted against the bedroom tax seven times, which is all the votes on legislation, and I supported a private Member’s Bill, yet the SNP choose continually to mention the Opposition day debate on which some Labour MPs were paired and therefore did not attend. I am sorry to labour that point, but it is important to get on the record the facts of who represented Scotland by voting against the bedroom tax and who did not.

I unequivocally agree with all Members who have said today that, as the report clearly states, the bedroom tax should never have come into fruition and should never have been introduced by this UK Government. I think the bedroom tax should be abolished immediately, but that does not let the Scottish Government off the hook. In my hometown, people still remember the impact that Strathclyde regional council made during the miners’ strikes. That was part of the inspiration for devolution and for the Scottish Parliament: when a local authority could protect its local people, imagine what we could do for all of Scotland. That has been used as an argument for independence, too, but it is an argument for devolution. Devolution was designed to get the best out of the UK and to protect it when something goes wrong and there is a policy with which we do not agree. The SNP has remained anti-devolution and uses the Scottish Parliament only when it suits the SNP.

I hope the Minister will announce the abolition of the bedroom tax today. I will not hold my breath, but I hope she will at least tell us whether the Government are doing an analysis. If that analysis shows that the Government’s aims for the policy are not coming to fruition, will they consider abolishing the bedroom tax not just for Scotland but for all the UK? I am relieved that my constituents will not have to suffer from the bedroom tax in future, although they have already incurred debts. I look forward to a Labour Government abolishing the bedroom tax for the entire UK in 2015.

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[Pete Wishart]

Will the Minister bring her remarks back to Scotland, which is what this debate is about? There are legitimacy issues here. We did not vote for any of this. Why should Scotland put up with it?

[Esther McVey]

We have, in our latest discussion—this is why we are here today—asked how we could best deal with this situation and what to do. We have put extra money on the table, and the Scottish Government were paying in as well. We have now allowed the matter to be devolved to Scotland, for it to consider what it can do. Although the proposal in Scotland might be an immediate answer to Scotland’s issues and problems in this regard, it does not solve the underlying problem about what people are doing, how Scotland will change its housing stock, how it will get the right people in the right houses, and how it will pay the bills, with an ageing population and more people going into social housing.

Although money might be put towards this issue, we are dealing with other issues too, not only in England but in Wales; we are looking at the stock and getting the right people in the right houses—something that Labour has kicked down the road. It is not dealing with those issues now, and did not deal with them in office.