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The Minister of State, Department for Work and Pensions (Esther McVey)
It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Bone. I thank the Liaison Committee for securing this debate and I welcome the attention that the Scottish Affairs Committee is giving to welfare reform generally and to housing benefit reform specifically. I appreciate the opportunity to put the Government’s position in this debate. The Committee produced both this report and the subsequent report without seeking any input from the Department or its Ministers.
It may be helpful to discuss why this policy was introduced in the first place. The issue is difficult and complex. It has taken up a lot of time on all sides of the House, as well as the Government’s time. However, people have to understand what we are looking to solve, because we were delivered a huge problem by the Labour party, now in Opposition: a housing bill spiralling out of control, going up from £13 billion in 2002-03 to £24 billion in 2012-13—as it would have been—and increasing. What were we going to do? This was unaffordable. How was it going to be affordable, not just now but in the future, for future generations? Who was going to pick up that debt and solve this issue, and get as fair a solution as possible?
Of course, we are listening to what is said about people today who will end up having to pay a certain amount of money for extra rooms in their houses, but what about the people in the private rented sector who are still getting paid housing benefit? They do not have the luxury of a spare room in their houses. The Labour party introduced this very same change in housing benefit—
Esther McVey
I will not give way at the moment.
The Labour party introduced this same change in 2008 and, at the same time, it was talking about its implementation. So I am afraid it does not wash, now, when Labour are in Opposition—
Esther McVey
I will not give way just yet.
Since I am talking about people who have to afford their homes, what about people who have bought their own home on a low income but cannot have a spare room because they cannot afford it? We have to look at fairness to the taxpayer and to people in private rented homes, and those in social rented homes, as well as at a bill spiralling out of control. As I said, I am afraid that this problem was handed to us. It is not an easy problem; it is a complex one. It is a difficult problem to solve, but we are solving it.
Talking about the extra support, which is key, we trebled discretionary housing payments for the complex cases; that is the money that we have handed out. We recognise the rural issue and have provided an extra £5 million for that, and we recognise significantly adapted homes, whether with a room for those affected by domestic violence or with specific adaptations for disabled people, for example. We have put an extra £25 million into that. All those things have been acknowledged.
At the same time, claimants or their partners who receive frequent overnight care from someone not in their household were exempt. Parents of disabled children who could not share a room were also exempt. Foster carers had an extra room. Parents with adult children in the armed forces who remained at home when not on operations had exemptions, too. All those people were recognised.
Pamela Nash
The Minister mentioned a few numbers relating to money given in mitigation. Exactly how much have the Government saved as a result of this policy? Which organisations have come to the Government, during their analysis of the policy, before and after implementation, and said, “This is a good idea”?
Esther McVey
I am not just talking numbers; I am talking lives of people right across the country who are affected by this. We are looking to save £500 million per year. That is what is being rolled out and what is being saved, because at the moment people are moving into other homes. At the moment, that is the amount being saved.
Esther McVey
I have always made it clear that this is not merely about saving money. It is about the use of housing stock, going forward, and about fairness for all those people paying into the system and all those needing homes. It is not just about money, but money is part of that, too.
Before I give way again—
Mr Peter Bone (in the Chair)
Order. It might help hon. Members—there is clearly still quite a lot of interest in this debate—to know that a vote is scheduled at 3.5 pm, which might be a convenient time to end the debate, so the Minister might have a little more time than she thinks.
Esther McVey
Thank you, Mr Bone.
As we look at the question, it comes into sharper focus. I need to remind all hon. Members, particularly those on the Opposition Benches, that Labour Members fully supported and voted for an overall welfare cap—[Interruption.] Some Scottish National party Members did not vote for it. My question for the Opposition and Committee members is this: if savings are not to come from housing benefit, which aspects of welfare spending and the welfare bill—potentially £500 million a year—are they going to cut? Will it be disability benefits or support to children, or will pensioners be affected? All this is rather complex, because I am afraid that the Opposition voted for an overall welfare cap.
Graeme Morrice
The right hon. Lady talks about the cost. Does she not accept that the evidence provided to the Committee by various witnesses from Scotland and beyond—all the housing providers, welfare rights organisations, tenants, local authorities and even the Convention of Scottish Local Authorities—says that the cap is costing everybody more money than it is saving? How does the Minister respond to that, and particularly to the COSLA figure, supported by all political parties in Scotland, that in Scotland it is costing an additional £60 million to administer?
Esther McVey
I do not agree with that. We are seeing people moving round. The debate never considers the people in overcrowded accommodation. There is an issue in Scotland in that regard, too, although the problem is not as big there as in the rest of Britain. What about people living in overcrowded accommodation? What are we to do with people who do not have the right-sized room for their children, whether disabled or otherwise? What about people on housing waiting lists? We are forgetting about all these other people who have issues, too.
Esther McVey
I am afraid that, in opposition, the Labour party has forgotten about those people. We are dealing with those people. I should like to state some facts about arrears, which were mentioned by the hon. Members for Glasgow South West (Mr Davidson), and for East Lothian (Fiona O'Donnell). The regular Scottish household survey found that arrears in December 2013 were lower than at the same point in both 2012 and 2011, and 55% of Scottish social landlords reported a fall in the percentage of their rent arrears between March and December 2013. These are the figures that we are looking at. The Chair of the Committee asked about support for disabled people. I have talked about that and the extra money in that regard.
The right hon. Member for East Ham (Stephen Timms) talked about the difference between a tax and a subsidy. He is a mathematician—he went to university with a friend of mine—so I know that he knows the difference between a subsidy and a tax. However, I wonder whether it is because the Opposition do not know the difference between the two that we are in incredible debt at the moment. They do not understand the ins and outs of money and how it is best spent; that is why they left us with a £150-billion-a-year deficit.
Pete Wishart
Will the Minister bring her remarks back to Scotland, which is what this debate is about? There are legitimacy issues here. We did not vote for any of this. Why should Scotland put up with it?
Esther McVey
We have, in our latest discussion—this is why we are here today—asked how we could best deal with this situation and what to do. We have put extra money on the table, and the Scottish Government were paying in as well. We have now allowed the matter to be devolved to Scotland, for it to consider what it can do. Although the proposal in Scotland might be an immediate answer to Scotland’s issues and problems in this regard, it does not solve the underlying problem about what people are doing, how Scotland will change its housing stock, how it will get the right people in the right houses, and how it will pay the bills, with an ageing population and more people going into social housing.
Although money might be put towards this issue, we are dealing with other issues too, not only in England but in Wales; we are looking at the stock and getting the right people in the right houses—something that Labour has kicked down the road. It is not dealing with those issues now, and did not deal with them in office.
Mark Lazarowicz
Given that the Minister has mentioned the solution that the Government are putting forward, will she say when the necessary order will go through the House of Commons? We may prorogue next week; can she guarantee that it will be put in place before we prorogue? Otherwise, the Scottish Parliament will not be able to take the necessary action until several months have passed.
Esther McVey
I hope that the hon. Gentleman appreciates that the announcement was made only on Friday. It is very much early days. We are working through the detail of how the policy will work, and we have to make sure that the solution works. I want to check the debate timings with you, Mr Bone, because I know that the Chair of the Select Committee wants to reply. How much longer has the debate got?
Lindsay Roy
The Minister spoke about a potential saving of £500 million. When will we get the actual figure?
Esther McVey
We will get the actual figure as it works through. That figure is the one we are working to. I have always made it clear, and I make it clear today, that it is about getting the correct use of the housing stock and fairness for those paying for their own home, those in the social rented sector, and those in the private rented sector. It is about stopping the spiralling increase in the housing budget, which Labour allowed to run out of control. That budget doubled in monetary terms in 10 years. How best can we tackle that problem? We are dealing with it and solving it, and we are getting it right.
When we look at the changes that have taken effect, we see that, so far, 9% of people in the UK, and 7% of people in Scotland, have moved. The changes that we were hoping for when we put that into effect were that people would downsize, and that larger houses would be freed up for those in overcrowded accommodation on the waiting list. That has happened, but there is still a way to go.
Esther McVey
I am running out of time. If I have only 20 more seconds, I had better not take an intervention. [Interruption.] I feel I have given way many times to Members. It is important that the issue is tackled. It is difficult and sensitive, and it has kept a lot of us up late at night, trying to get it right, and that is what we are doing. The issue is very complex.