Great British Energy Bill (Second sitting)

Perran Moon Excerpts

Committee stage
Tuesday 8th October 2024 Public Bill Committees

[The Chair]

We have a couple of minutes left.

[Perran Moon (Camborne and Redruth) (Lab)]

Q Gentlemen, in relation to clause 3(2)(a), on the supply of clean energy, you have mentioned floating offshore wind, onshore wind and tidal; what do you think are the benefits of GB Energy for technologies such as solar, which is quite well advanced, and geothermal, which is quite important to us in Cornwall? There will be no requirement to consult a Cornish Minister about that.

Tristan Zipfel: I can start with solar energy. As a business we do not look at geothermal, so I do not want to elaborate on that, but we invest a lot in solar. When you look at solar, the issue is not to get private capital—there is more than enough capital to invest in this. However, where GB could provide value is perhaps in creating that link with local communities. I keep going back to that, but it is so important for us to create a sense that those projects are not just there for private investors but have an element of state and public ownership. That could mean a lot for local communities. In partnership with GB Energy, we could even imagine GB Energy taking the lead on the relationship with local communities or in certain parts of the development that are so essential to the project. Recent studies have shown that local communities would respond very favourably to projects in which Great British Energy is an investor alongside the private sector. In that sense, it would make a difference.

Alistair McGirr: I think the local power plan is an opportunity for these technologies. It is not just about the big, mature technologies. It will play an important role in developing projects in solar and geothermal in Cornwall, in Wales and in other parts of the country, too. It is about making the most of the local power plan and working with developers to help to bring those to fruition as soon as possible.

[The Chair]

Thank you. I apologise to Members who have not managed to ask all the questions they want to ask, but we are out of time on this panel. Mr Zipfel and Mr McGirr, I thank you very much on behalf of the Committee and the House for affording us the benefit of your opinions and your time.

Examination of Witness

Dan Labbad gave evidence.

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[Andrew Bowie]

Q We have spoken with previous guests this afternoon about the necessity for the Secretary of State and the Minister here to have strategic priorities and plans to engage with Scottish and Welsh Ministers and all the devolved Administrations. Obviously, the Crown Estate is an area that is devolved in Scotland. You said that within the market right now there are different plans, priorities and timescales and people are moving in different directions. How are you co-ordinating with Crown Estate Scotland to ensure that your work with GBE will be uniform and joined up across the United Kingdom? Otherwise, none of the targets will be met.

Dan Labbad: Consultation across the country is fundamental. In fact, if you look at our Celtic sea round 5 tender, which is live at the moment, you will see that we consulted heavily with the Welsh Government and with Welsh stakeholders. In fact, we evolved our approach quite considerably in the deployment of that tender approach through that consultation, adding a lot of value.

I should say that to get a leasing programme out like round 5—which is the 4.5 GW floating wind programme that we have at the moment live in the Celtic sea—you engage with many stakeholders. The count in the case of the Celtic sea was more than 70 stakeholders from global and local environmental groups, developers across Government, the third sector again and a whole host of users of the seabed. Without doing that we do not deploy, because we do not get everybody’s buy-in. If we are talking other parts of the country, there is no difference whether it is Northern Ireland or Scotland.

We enjoy a good relationship with Crown Estates Scotland and with the Scottish Government. They are partners in our marine delivery route map and we are co-ordinating on systems issues, because obviously some of the environmental issues and deployment and grid issues do not have borders, so that consultation is, as you suggest, fundamental.

[Perran Moon]

Q In relation to clause 1(5), about the statement of strategic priorities, you just mentioned the Celtic sea round 5 tenders. I think I am correct in saying that they did not have any mandatory social value element. What would be your thoughts on social value being mandated as part of the strategic priorities for local coastal communities, particularly deprived areas such as Cornwall?

Dan Labbad: First, as regards the Celtic sea, there are social requirements as part of the tender process. I obviously cannot talk about them too much, given that we are in a live tender for procurement purposes, but there are social requirements as part of that tender.

To your question, it is fundamental. It will be a real failure if we end up deploying renewable energy on the seabed in the way we need to in the next 20 years and are not able to capture a fair proportion of that industrial complex for ourselves as a country. It would be a real pity if we did not build new jobs and new futures for young people across the country and if we did not support the distribution of that benefit across the country, including to coastal communities.

We have to bear in mind that there is a role for developers and a role for Government and the Crown Estate. For example, in the Celtic sea a 4.5 GW tender does not build a supply chain. It is not enough; the critical mass is not there. Again, that is why it is so important that Great British Energy and the Crown Estate work together, with our additional powers and being able to provide forward commitments to, for example, the Celtic sea. We estimate at the moment that it has the potential for another 12 GW of offshore wind, predominantly floating but also fixed. You need that type of scale so that both Government and private sector investment in the supply chain, including in coastal communities, will stick. That is why this partnership is so important and why we have to remember the size of that prize, so to speak.

[Stephen Flynn]

Q GB Energy’s objectives as set out in the Bill make it quite clear that it is intent on becoming a producer, distributor, supplier and storer of energy, and to achieve that the Crown Estate will be absolutely crucial. Can you provide a little insight on the recent powers on borrowing provided to the Crown Estate, and how that will help you and GB Energy to meet the Bill’s aims?

Dan Labbad: First, from the Crown Estate’s perspective —I know this is a little out of scope—we operate under an Act of Parliament and have an obligation to enhance the value of our portfolio nationally, on behalf of the country, into perpetuity. We must ensure that we, like any business, balance safe investments with more risky investments. There is no doubt that investing in the seabed in the way we are talking about is a higher risk activity than other things that we do.

The increased borrowing powers do two things. First, they give us the capital throughput to do more—to accelerate and offer more. Secondly, because we know that we will have a line of credit, they allow us to make commitments. To use the Celtic sea as an example, as we move from what we envisage we can do about 12 GW to the reality of knowing that we can do that, we can then say to the market that we are committed to that leasing programme over the next 10 years. That is huge. From a developer perspective, they are not chipping away. For argument’s sake, let us say that we have 4 GW divided into three bits. You are talking about small gigawattage for companies of the scale of Equinor, for example. Being able to provide a pipeline where we know there is more to come means that they invest more—that is what that does.

The other thing that comes with the borrowing powers is a broader investment remit, which allows us to turn our attention to supply chain opportunities and to support the industrial complex and jobs. Again, we have been restricted in what we can do there in the past, so that is fundamental. With regard to GB Energy, as I said earlier, the Crown Estate cannot do it all on its own. We need additional capital support, support with co-ordination and support with policy evolution. All those things are required, which is why the partnership is so fundamental.

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[Stephen Flynn]

My question has just been answered.

[Perran Moon]

Q My question is along similar lines. Thinking about attracting that capital investment, we are currently in a scenario where, in relation to clause 4, there is a need to de-risk some UK energy projects to unlock additional capital investment. Can you describe how you see the specific role of GB Energy in unlocking some of that capital investment?

Josh Buckland: I have looked through the project life cycle, and clause 4 gives a lot of flexibility around it. There is the early-stage development capital, which is quite difficult at this stage to develop at the scale required. Developing large-scale energy projects costs not just tens of millions, but potentially hundreds of millions through the development phase, so there is a role there that GB Energy could play in the deployment of development capital.

Potentially more important in a development phase is the ability to help projects to de-risk other things that they cannot control, such as their ability to access a grid connection, to get planning approval and to access the right supply chain domestically, to go back to the point about unlocking economic potential here. That could potentially be a significant role for GB Energy. That comes back to the governance question of where Government draw the line between a role for Great British Energy and the Government, because a lot of those issues are effectively for the Government to deal with, but that is an interesting dynamic to watch.

If we move through to the construction phase, there is slightly less of a role, in truth, because the level of capital required in building out projects once they have got over the initial financing barrier is potentially lower. I know the Government have talked a lot about that separately from the Bill. The exception is local and community energy projects, where clearly the barrier to unlocking investment is higher, and there is potentially a role there for Great British Energy that the Government have talked about.

The final piece is whether, once an asset has been built out and is operational, Great British Energy should have a role there. Again, that is potentially more a question about how you want the capital to be deployed. The Government could take a stake in a project, or invest to then seek a return, and utilise that money either to reduce energy bills or to reinvest. That is a question around prioritisation of public spending, because that might be a sensible thing to do, but there is a range of other things you could invest in that might look beyond the energy transition. Hopefully that gives you a bit of a feel. The role will definitely change depending on where you are in the asset life cycle.

[Pippa Heylings]

Q Given your history as a civil servant and in government over the last years, one of the issues around governance under clause 5 was the level of scope and power given to the Secretary of State, without a review, being able to review, reverse or replace the statement. Given that in the past we have had the rolling back of commitments and that we are trying to create certainty for investment, do you have any reflections on whether there should be any kind of review before the Secretary of State can do anything? We are being asked to support this Bill’s being so broad and flexible that any change would be quite substantive. Is there any learning from the past where you would change the way that is described in the Bill?

Josh Buckland: There is a question around consultative processes, I suppose. One thing we have seen, or that I have experienced, especially on the planning side, is that when the Government set out statements of intent—for example, through the planning regime and national policy statements—it is important to consult on those extensively in advance so that there is certainty around what they mean. Then they have to wait as institutions respond. There may be a question about what level of external input is given before the statement of strategic priorities is set out, or whether it is just a Government statement that is then passed through. There is an interesting question about consultation in advance.

Once it is established, those acting and investing alongside Great British Energy will be more interested in how it as an institution interprets that statement. If it has to set out a strategic business plan as set out under subsection (8), that is the area that companies will be more interested in, because—assuming it is operationally independent—that is the thing that they will take more seriously.

The other dynamic in terms of updates is the risk that regular updates to the strategic plan create uncertainty. That might go back to the question of timeline and expectations of when the statement is reviewed, when it is republished and at what stage, and what needs to change externally to make that a reality. That is probably an important dynamic. Whether that is a matter for the Bill I will leave to others to guide on, but obviously it is an area that will be of interest externally in understanding how Great British Energy operates in practice.

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[Harriet Cross]

Q The statement of strategic priorities set out in clause 5 does not have a timescale on it. I wonder how important it is from your members’ points of view that that timescale is narrowed down, particularly given that a lot of your members will be international companies. Obviously investment and personnel—that is, skills—flow abroad, and we cannot guarantee that they will wait for a strategic priorities document to come forward.

David Whitehouse: There is no doubt that the UK and Scotland are in a global race for investment, and we need to create an environment where we are attracting investment. I sit in a sector that has been battered to some degree by public perception and by tax changes. There are things that are happening outwith GB Energy that, as a country, we need to look at. We need to make a great environment for investment.

Time does matter; GB Energy will start to come to life when the Secretary of State puts forward priorities. The thing that we would ask—I think you have heard it from others—is about bringing forward the strategic priorities for GB Energy. The statement should be something that we are engaged in and are bringing forward now. It should come forward in a timely manner, but it must make sure that it has taken on board the necessary engagement with industry, Governments and other key stakeholders. Time is always of the essence.

[Perran Moon]

Q In relation to clause 4, “Financial assistance”, you mentioned unlocking capital investment. Can you elaborate on specific areas where the de-risking of unlocking capital investment could be particularly relevant to GB Energy?

David Whitehouse: For me, there are areas—I have touched on them slightly—where you look at the projects and their timelines, and if you have more data and more information up front, it massively shrinks the time from taking on a licence, or whatever it is, to turning that into carbon stored or electricity generated. There is an opportunity for an entity like GB Energy to invest in some of that up-front data gathering to de-risk those projects. GB Energy would then have the opportunity to trade that for a share in the future projects that come from that. We will see how that shows in the priorities, but that is a clear area where GB Energy can invest now to get data and use it to leverage equity stakes in projects moving forward, which I think is very much consistent with the founding principles of GB Energy.

We also touched on the infrastructure that is required in the UK, much of which is now being dealt with through the National Energy System Operator, and people will have spoken at length about the issues around the grid. There is so much more that we need to deliver a net zero future for the UK and for Europe. Again, a state investor with a long-term investment horizon can now be in the position where we start talking about what networks we need across the North sea to be successful. Having an entity like GB Energy crowding in private sector money is a great opportunity to unlock some of that.

[Perran Moon]

Q On clause 3, you mentioned the supply chain. I totally agree with you about the value of the UK supply chain. You referred to the North sea a lot in relation to that, which I completely understand given your membership, but what about the other areas of the UK? I am particularly thinking of Wales and Cornwall where there is a huge renewable energy opportunity but where, perhaps, the supply chains have not yet been as well established as they are in the North sea. Could you comment on how we can fix that problem through GB Energy?

David Whitehouse: I think it will and should be one of the priorities of GB Energy that our drive for clean energy must be done in a way where we create those supply chains. How do we do that? We already have—we can provide it to the Committee—a good assessment of the quality of the UK supply chain and what its capabilities are. We have a good understanding of what those future renewable opportunities are, and you are absolutely right that there are supply chain opportunities across the country, in essentially every constituency. We have that knowledge.

Now we need GB Energy to recognise what those opportunities are. There are projects to be invested in that GB Energy should be part of, and it should be directing and working with industry and the supply chain to make sure that we take the opportunities to grow our supply chain. We have a lot of significant companies that we should grow. It is a fantastic export but also delivers in our own country. Myrtle will have touched on it: we have a whole host of acorns around this country that could be grown into massive oaks. It will probably use less flowery language, but that should be one of the principles of GB Energy. We have supply chain acorns that we can identify, and we must turn them into the oaks that this country needs.

[Wera Hobhouse]

Q We have been round the houses several times today. We need to see whether we can add anything to the Bill, whether something is missing from it or whether a lot of this will become clearer once the Secretary of State prepares a statement of strategic priorities or we understand the governance structures—all that. You are identifying all the stuff to do with future development of technologies that we do not even know about.

There was a question this morning about whether the Bill should specify that GB Energy should look at the gap in financial markets when it comes to support for new technology companies that otherwise would not make it through the valleys of death. As I understand it, there are not enough financial products out there, from private equity, ordinary banks or other investment opportunities. Can we put anything in the Bill to make addressing that particular gap more of a priority?

David Whitehouse: I am sorry; I wish I could give you a better answer. I have spoken with our members. In some way, shape or form, we think the Bill as it stands is broad and provides the opportunity for the Secretary of State and others to bring forward the statement of principles. That is where we would see some of that.

The Government will also bring forward an industrial strategy, and linked to that will be our energy policy. I think there is such a good opportunity within those—we will have representation from industry, which understands some of the issues, and there will be representatives from our investors across the sector. From our members’ feedback, I think that is where they would see that input: in those broader ways.

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[The Chair]

I call Perran Moon.

[Perran Moon]

My question has been answered.

[Torcuil Crichton]

Q Thank you, Andy, for your impressive evidence. I also declare an interest as a member of the GMB. You welcome the Bill, possibly the prescription part for renewables, but what would you write in that prescription part to ensure that the workforce is involved and that we retain that workforce as we move to green energy away from oil and gas?

Andy Prendergast: The role of trade unions is key. I have always had a very simple view: trade unions are about democracy at work. We are a country that believes in democracy so much that we invade other countries to give it to them whether they want it or not, and yet the idea of democratisation at the workplace is an anathema—certainly to what was over half of Parliament.

We need to listen to workers and ensure that they share in the success of businesses and ultimately that their sacrifices and those of their families are recognised. When we look at the work that is going to be coming out, we know that we have to do this. We have been asking for an industrial plan for years, and I think GB Energy is part of that industrial plan. That industrial plan has to be a road map of how we do this properly, how we engage those communities and how we provide the support necessary to make a transition.

I mentioned going to Denmark. When I was there, something fascinating happened: they closed a bacon plant, which was 1,000 jobs. You sit there and say, “That’s terrible. In Britain, we’d be fighting that. We’d be on picket lines.” In Denmark, because of the support given in social security and retraining, and the industrial strategy, it was seen as an opportunity for people to get better jobs. That was also helped an awful lot by the fact that those people were getting 90% of their salary paid for up to a year, so people thought, “Well, it’s a better job and a bit of a holiday in the meantime.” That shows what happens when you engage people properly.

What you ended up with is something that would decimate a community in Britain but rejuvenated a community in Denmark. That is because there was a tripartite strategy of listening to unions, talking to Government and talking to employers, and everyone put their heads together to come up with a solution to what would clearly be a problem. We have failed at that in Britain for years.

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[The Chair]

I understand that that was out of order this morning, but you got your answer in the end.

[Perran Moon]

Q I would like to declare that I am the secretary of the all-party parliamentary group for critical minerals. That will be relevant in my question.

I can safely say that the people of Cornwall are really excited about GB Energy. Expectations are very high. We are a post-industrial community that has suffered for decades from lack of investment. More recently, however, we have discovered that investment is now going into our tin industry; we have the third highest-grade tin deposits in the world. We also have lithium. We face the Celtic sea, so we have a huge opportunity with offshore wind and onshore wind. We have companies setting up in geothermal, solar and tidal, and we have the country’s largest ground source heat pump.

Can you elaborate on the potential benefits for communities such as Cornwall, where we have such a wide array of opportunity, and say how GB Energy will support those opportunities? And if I may be a little bit cheeky, we have heard quite a lot today about the head office being set up in Aberdeen with satellite offices being set up in Edinburgh and Glasgow, but I will just point out that there is another corner of the United Kingdom that would be delighted to have a satellite office.

Michael Shanks: May I thank you for the question? I think that, in asking it, you have successfully elaborated on all the potentials of Cornwall, which I am sure your constituents will be delighted about.

However, you make a really important point on two fronts. The aim of GB Energy is to crowd in investment in projects right across the United Kingdom. Yes, we are very proud to say that the headquarters will be in Scotland and—importantly—specifically in Aberdeen, as the Prime Minister announced. That is partly to recognise the energy story in the north-east of Scotland for the last 60 years in oil and gas, and the importance of the transition. However, it is also important to say that on the renewables journey Scotland has also been leading the way and will continue to do so in so many ways. It is right that the headquarters is in Aberdeen, building on the talent, experience and skills that are already there.

On the broader point, though, there are real opportunities for investments in every corner of the UK. To go back to some of the earlier points that witnesses made, this is a combination of policies; it is not just GB Energy in isolation. We have been really clear that we are a Government that are not agnostic about industrial strategy, and that we want to see manufacturing in the UK, and the thousands of jobs that could have been created by some of our offshore wind projects, for example, but actually went to other countries before we towed the projects into British waters. We want to see those jobs in this country and that will create opportunities across the country in the supply chains, in skill developments and in lots of other opportunities, including in Cornwall.

Although I absolutely cannot commit to opening an office in Cornwall and I would like the record to reflect that, I think there will be opportunities for your part of the world and indeed for the whole of the UK.

[Harriet Cross]

Q We have heard from various witnesses, particularly Ravi Gurumurthy, about the risk management of private investment and how that will sort of coincide within GB Energy. I am just wondering how the Bill is expected to ensure that GB Energy does not just effectively end up as a sink for risky investments, or is that okay? Is the prospect for GB Energy that it provides that full buffer? If not, how will we prevent that situation? Otherwise, we are effectively just making taxpayers’ money the risk management for private investment. I do not have a “yes or no, which side of that fence do I sit on?” answer; I am just wondering what is acceptable within the context of the Bill.

Michael Shanks: That is a really fair question. The question of risk appetite is important; that is partly why setting up GB Energy as a company, regulated by the Companies Act and with a fiduciary board made up of financial experts who have a responsibility as a board of directors for the direction of the company and for its financial results, is so important.

There has to be some risk appetite, and one of the earlier witnesses made a point that I would agree with—if there are absolutely no projects that do not have any risk at all, GB Energy is not really filling the gap. It is really important that GB Energy can move in the spaces where the current investors are not necessarily finding those opportunities. Crucially, however, GB Energy is obviously owned by the taxpayer and therefore, as a backstop, there is a real conviction that it will only invest in things that have a likelihood of producing a return for the taxpayer.

Of course, when we get into making individual decisions, that is partly why it is important the Bill does not go into a granular level of detail on every single thing that GB Energy will do, because it is really important that we give that board, those experts and everyone they bring in to advise them, the space to move into opportunities as they emerge.

If we were to go back five or 10 years, we would not have thought that we were about to have the world’s biggest floating offshore wind farm off the coast of the UK. That would not be on the face of a Bill like this, but actually it is a huge potential opportunity for us and we would like those kinds of opportunities to be open to GB Energy to explore.