Sulphur Regulations

Penny Mordaunt Excerpts

Wednesday 18th June 2014 Westminster Hall

[Karl Turner]

I agree with the hon. Lady, and I thank her for her intervention. For me, the issue is mainly about the loss of employment, and she is right to mention her own constituency because I am sure that she is concerned about employment there. Although the IMO adopted the regulations, it also definitely recognised that flexibility would be required to allow companies the transition time to adapt to the new era without damage to businesses. The hon. Lady made that same point.

Following an inquiry by the Transport Committee, it reported that the regulations would see an 87% rise in fuel costs, and shipping companies estimate that approximately €55 million will be added to annual fuel bills. To meet such increased costs on the North sea routes will probably be economically unviable. I am told by P&O Ferries and other shipowners that, in reality, ferries tend to run on tight margins. The costs will create a problem not only for ship operators, but for exporters, leading to a detrimental effect on our region’s exports and tourism.

Hull’s local economy relies heavily on tourism, and Hull city council’s 10-year plan sees tourism as a major contributor to the economic regeneration of the city. Hull will be the city of culture in 2017 and we are working hard locally to ensure we have reliable and affordable transport links. As a result of increased fuel costs and in order to overcome the extra expenditure, ferry operators will no doubt pass them on to their customers or, worryingly, reduce services. It is therefore of great concern that the regulations could have a severe impact on the number of tourists coming through our ports and weaken the much-needed tourism economy.

No one disputes the need to reduce sulphur emissions, but, if we consider the resulting increased use of road haulage and accept that shipping produces considerably less carbon emissions per tonne kilometre than any other commonly used means of freight transportation, the environmental argument for the policy in the regulations is undermined.

[Penny Mordaunt (Portsmouth North) (Con)]

I thank the hon. Gentleman for securing the debate, which is timely, because today the Freight Transport Association is celebrating its 125th anniversary. Does he accept that the argument that we need to focus on is how the regulations will be implemented, and the timing, because the UK Chamber of Shipping has accepted and, in my understanding, is content with the move on sulphur emissions?

[Karl Turner]

I agree entirely with the hon. Lady; it is true that timing is the issue. Some argue that businesses have had long enough, frankly, and that some assistance has been provided through tax subsidies. However, as a Member for Parliament for east Hull, where unemployment is high, when businesses tell me that they are worried about job losses, I have to be concerned.

The Hull and Humber chamber of commerce has also expressed worries that the regulations will have a negative impact on the local road haulage sector—job losses in that sector as well perhaps. It argues that increased costs will inevitably be passed on to consumers, such as road haulage firms, and those firms may see it as necessary either to travel longer distances by road, with shorter sea crossings, again increasing CO₂ emissions, or to relocate to other areas of the UK where the implications of the fuel cost increase are less dramatic. Both options are damaging to the economy and indeed to the environment.

As I have said a few times in my remarks, no one has a problem with reducing sulphur emissions, but I am not convinced that the regulations will achieve that goal. I am not convinced that the Government have fully considered the evidence or the true impact that the regulations will have on jobs, the environment, our roads and the shipping industry. We absolutely have to ensure that sulphur emissions are reduced, but that needs to be balanced with growth in a fragile economy. The Government plan to review the effects of the policy in 2019, but I ask the Minister to consider a review much earlier, perhaps 12 months after implementation.

Hull is having a tough time and we need to work hard to protect every local job in my city. Our roads are at bursting point and the last thing that we need next year is heavier lorry congestion. I urge the Minister to push the European Commission for more implementation time and to do all that he can do to ensure that jobs and the environment are fully protected.

--- Later in debate ---

[Stephen Hammond]

The hon. Gentleman is right to be concerned. If he waits a few minutes I will tell him directly what the Government have done and are doing now.

The idea that is being put forward today, namely that these are new regulations and a crunch is coming—there is not; there is a date for implementation coming—is not supported by all of the chamber’s own members. On the contrary, some members of the chamber belong to the Trident Alliance, which is a coalition of shipping owners and operators who share a common interest and do not share the views being put across.

I accept that shipping is not the only source of pollutant emissions, but without the controls, polluting emissions from ships will grow significantly because of the reductions made by other modes of transport: unless action is taken, by 2020 shipping will account for more than half of all sulphur emissions in Europe.

As everyone has recognised, the limits undoubtedly pose challenges for shipowners, particularly for those whose ships operate predominantly or exclusively in an emission control area. The Government appreciate that some shipowners, and ferry operators in particular, have raised concerns about the cost of complying with the new limits. From our discussions, we are conscious that the impacts are not spread evenly, and that routes for multipurpose vessels—those carrying both passengers and freight—are likely to see the highest costs. We also recognise the importance of ferries and jobs.

Throughout the whole process we have therefore sought to implement the sulphur limits in a way that maximises the opportunity for the industry to minimise the economic impact. I became shipping Minister in 2012, and immediately in October of that year and again in 2013 I chaired round-table meetings of industry stakeholders, including from shipping, the ports, abatement technology—more colloquially known as scrubbing technology—oil refining and logistics sectors, to consider how we could make sure that people could work to comply with the regulations in a way that minimised regulation and cost. As a direct result, we commissioned a survey to look at the economic costs to industry.

[Penny Mordaunt]

I thank the Minister for what he has done with the shipping sector. Whatever the sector needs, whether it be incentives or a boot up the backside, that work needs to carry on. Does he recognise that it is not just the sector itself that is affected, but the ports and jobs connected to ports? In Portsmouth we are putting a lot of money into our commercial port. Will he give us an assurance today that our ambitions—whether on ferries, cruise liners or freight—will be able to be met if the directive is implemented?

[Stephen Hammond]

I certainly hope to be able to do that by the end of my speech, and to explain some of the things we are doing. Portsmouth, like so many other places, including Hull, has a booming port industry. There is a renaissance, particularly in my hon. Friend’s port and in my home town of Southampton, from where there are huge exports, the like of which would not have been dreamed of 15 years ago. That is a tribute to the port industry, which is now a great success.

As a direct result of the round-table discussions, which were also about commissioning work on the economic costs, I immediately contacted the Secretary-General of the IMO and made exactly the point that the hon. Member for Kingston upon Hull East made: we must not wait for a review of the 2020 regulations, but should start a review immediately. I persuaded the IMO that it should start the review promptly following the implementation of these regulations.

Another outcome of the meetings is that the Government are looking at ways of helping the industry. My officials have been working closely with the UK Chamber of Shipping—which is why I am so disappointed—for a considerable period. We have solicited an assurance from the European Union that it will meet individual ferry operators who approach it to discuss a route to compliance. I accept that there are important issues to address, but both those things are a major step forward in helping the industry with the prospect of the regulatory burden.

One question is whether, as ships are encouraged to use fuels with a lower sulphur content, there will be sufficient fuel available. That is why the review is so important. It is equally important to look at other issues. Do we have an opportunity not to implement the sulphur limits? No, we do not because we would fail to meet international treaty obligations. More than that, we consistently spoke to EU fellow nations, none of which was prepared to deflect or move away from the time scales. If we do not implement the new limits, non-compliant UK-flagged ships will still be subject to enforcement action at UK ports. We do not have the opportunity or option of avoiding the limits. We cannot delay implementing the limits even on vulnerable routes. There is no exemption and that is why we have worked with the EU to allow ferry operators to discuss flexible implementation.

We held extensive discussions with other north European states that will be affected by the limits that will apply in the North sea. We pressed for exemptions for vulnerable routes, but there was no support from other members. The Government have not only pressed the case for ferry operators directly with the EU, but negotiated with other countries.

Shipowners have the option of installing scrubber technology or the exhaust gas cleaning system and we have been working with them on the cost of those systems. I recognise that significant capital is required and the Department is exploring the scope for securing EU finance under the trans-European network programme and affordable capital from the European investment bank for shipowners and ports that want to benefit from investment in that green technology.

The hon. Member for Kingston upon Hull East referred to a possible modal shift from sea to road and the identification of total fuel costs. Again, we are consulting on draft UK legislation. Part of that consultation is directly about the cost, but if we look at whether the implementation of the 0.1% sulphur limit will lead to a rise in costs for motorists, even if every ship in the emissions control area used 0.1% sulphur fuel rather than the abatement technology, we see that would still be less than 10% of the total market for middle-distillate diesel fuel. There will be a potential cost for motorists, but it will not be as great as stated. It is highly unlikely that every ship will use that. Many will use the scrubbing technology and I hope that the Government will be able to secure EU finance to enable shipowners to make transitional arrangements.

We have also been discussing with the industry our plans for applying a much more pragmatic approach to enforcement. It is important that enforcement is consistent and fair. My officials have already discussed with other member states and the Commission how to ensure a fair and consistent approach throughout the EU, so that services from UK ports are not unfairly disadvantaged.

It is important to look beyond compliance with the limits in the control area. I have been working closely with the Secretary-General of the IMO on the availability of 0.5% sulphur fuel in 2020, which will be the next challenge. l am pleased with the leadership that the UK has shown. We have been prominent, with the support of the Dutch and the Americans, in ensuring that the IMO is committed to engaging constructively and undertaking an early review.

There is no doubt that the sulphur limits are coming in in 2015 and prospectively in 2020. However, if the review shows that the fuel is not available, I will certainly negotiate with the IMO to push that limit back because it would be unfair to impose that on the industry. This Government and, to give them credit, the previous Government have worked with the industry to find ways of mitigating the cost and the regulatory burden and to ensure that jobs in this country are protected. That is why we are working to secure finance and transitional arrangements for people to implement scrubbing technology.

I hope that I have been able to reassure my hon. Friends and the hon. Gentleman that the Government, unlike the image that might have been presented, are taking the matter extraordinarily seriously. We have done so during my time in office and before. We have actively worked to support British shipping and the all-important jobs that come with it.

Question put and agreed to.

Rail Franchise Agreements

Penny Mordaunt Excerpts

Wednesday 12th March 2014 Commons Chamber

[Penny Mordaunt (Portsmouth North) (Con)]

As I make my speech, Members could be forgiven for thinking that they have heard it all before, for indeed they have. It was three years and three days ago that I first set out the case for reform of rail franchises based on my constituents’ experience of the South West Trains-operated London to Portsmouth line. Since then we have had another two changes of Secretary of State and two changes of Minister of State. I have raised this issue with Ministers and with South West Trains, and have ongoing discussions with my constituents, yet matters have not improved. The debate on rail infrastructure has become even more focused on capacity, and with good reason.

When making the case for High Speed 2, the Government have pointed out that the number of passenger miles travelled on the national rail network has increased from 20 billion in 1992-93 to 36 billion in 2012-13; the number of rail passenger journeys has increased from 976 million in 2002-03 to 1.502 billion in 2012-13, a 54% increase; and inter-city journeys have increased from 77 million to 128 million in the same period, an increase of 65%. As is well known, the rail-using public pay handsomely to make those 128 million journeys, and many of them feel that they are not getting value for money when they must travel in discomfort caused by standing or an inadequate seat.

On the London-Portsmouth line the discomfort debate centres on the vexed matter of the blue 450 Desiro carriages. South West Trains introduced the carriages in significant numbers in 2006 to address overcrowding on the trains made up of 444 Desiro carriages, arguing that a rake of 12 450s has 140 more standard-class seats than a rake of 10 444s. To justify the move, SWT used the passengers in excess of capacity surveys conducted in 2005 and 2006. There are two problems with the rationale: one a flaw in SWT’s logic and the other a flaw in its argument.

First, South West Trains contends that by substituting a rake of 450s for a rake of 444s, 140 standing passengers will be allowed to sit. For example, the 5.50 am train from Portsmouth harbour showed a peak count of 164 standing passengers. When the 450s were introduced, SWT supposed that that would leave only 24 people standing. On paper that seems to work, and when replying to the previous debate, the then Minister seemed to agree with the premise that the 450s mean fewer standing passengers between Woking and Waterloo. However, in practice, things are not so simple. The 444 carriages are four seats wide—two either side of a wide aisle and all with armrests, so there is space between each seat. The seats are mostly arranged in an airline style and one can face a fellow passenger only across a table. The tables and personal space allowed by the wide seats permit commuters to work or take refreshment in acceptable comfort. What is more, each and every one of the 299 seats in a 10-carriage rake can be used.

Madam Deputy Speaker, as sequels go, “London to Portsmouth railway line II” is tediously similar to the original, so you will know where the plot is heading. The tedium is repeated day after day for Portsmouth commuters. The notion that there will be an increase of 140 seats when a 10-carriage rake of 444s is replaced by a 12-carriage rake of 450s is total fantasy. The 450 carriages have five seats squeezed across their width arranged in a three-plus-two format with a narrow gangway in between. There is no space between seats and there are no armrests; many passengers must travel face to face and literally knee to knee. Laughably, South West Trains’ own ergonomic investigation found that 59% of passengers do not fit within the confines of the seats

“when their elbows are taken into account”.

Simply put, that means that nearly 60% of people do not fit because, unfortunately, human evolution has not kept pace with South West Trains’ aspirations and Britons have stubbornly refused to mutate into the armless monopods for whom the company would clearly prefer to cater.

The consequence of the dimensions of the seats on a 450 is that only three of the five seats across the width of the carriage can be used if those seats are occupied by what we might call three 59ers—those among the 59% who do not fit. If only three seats in a carriage can be comfortably used on a 450 rake, there are, coincidentally, only 444 available places to sit—some 150 or so fewer than in the original rake of 444 carriages. In practice, it is not at all clear that the 450s will reduce the number of standing passengers. In addition, Portsmouth passengers are obliged to make a 97-minute inter-city journey in a carriage that is uncomfortable and was specifically designed for shorter, suburban routes.

Obviously, crowding happens when the train is nearest London, as the vast majority of passengers will use the Waterloo terminus. Arguably, the 450s are suitable for the 45 minutes nearest London, when the train is busiest. Passengers joining so close to the capital can take the discomfort and violation of personal space for a time, it is thought. However, how many of them would rather stand than cram themselves into the uninviting middle seat of what is, without gaps between seats, effectively a 129 cm bench? Those seats are no more comfortable for the suburban than the inter-city commuter; the discomfort is simply reduced by the shorter journey.

On the criterion of delivering more seats, the use of the 450 carriages is on shaky ground. We might have the same number of seats, or fewer, but we certainly have many more discontented passengers. It is little wonder that, in a survey of Twitter activity last year, South West Trains was found to be the most complained-about operator in the country.

Even if we accept the South West Trains rationale at face value and assume that all the extra seats can be used to relieve overcrowding, the case still does not add up. If the only reason for bringing in the 450s on just under 50% of week-day services was to address overcrowding, we are entitled to wonder why all but one train on the line, up or down, is formed of 450 carriages on Saturdays, when there is no danger of overcrowding.

In reply to me last time, the then Minister explained that South West Trains was obliged to lease the new Siemens rolling stock under a section 54 undertaking, but it was also confirmed that the train operating company can deploy the sets as it will. Why, then, park all the 444s and force all passengers to travel in discomfort? A possible answer comes from an anonymous Siemens employee who provided the “No to 450” campaign with evidence to suggest that the 444 services were replaced by the 450s so that the mileage on the 444 carriages would fall into a cheaper maintenance bracket, saving South West Trains some £2 million a year.

The consequence is that the passenger pays the same for a less good service and can be obliged to travel for over an hour-and-a-half on a train that was never intended for such a route and causes extreme discomfort. Furthermore, the commuters from Woking to Waterloo—the very people whom South West Trains and the Government argue are helped by the 450s—still might not get a seat or will have to take a very undesirable seat.

That is not a problem to South West Trains, reasoning as it does that the inadequacies of the 450s are merely

“a comfort issue not a health risk.”.

That is not only an unsatisfactory attitude to the welfare of my constituents, but not entirely correct either, as visits to chiropractors for regular users are not unknown. Indeed, I handed a dossier of correspondence that I received from hundreds of passengers on the line to the then Secretary of State, my right hon. Friend the Member for Putney (Justine Greening), which detailed the health complaints attributed to the specification of the 450 carriages.

My constituents and I are realistic enough to recognise that whole-scale change will not happen, but there is a change that could be made in the short term that would do much to relieve the strain on south coast commuters. Using the latitude to deploy carriage sets as it will, South West Trains should provide for a half-hourly express service between Portsmouth and Waterloo, which is made up of 10 444 carriages. As an express, it would not stop in the suburban commuter belt and, as it would be at the same times each week day, Portsmouth residents could adjust their routine to catch it, thereby relieving the crush for suburban commuters on stopping services. South West Trains might even use its imagination to give the service a name, recalling a more charming railway age. The “Portsmouth Flyer” or the “Navy Express” would do nicely. That is a modest request, and one that I hope the Minister will join me in urging upon South West Trains.

The situation on the London to Portsmouth line is symptomatic of the way the privatised railway network is configured. The forces of competition, which should benefit the customer, only work when there is a viable alternative to railway travel, or a particular railway route. In the case of Portsmouth, some alternative is offered by the improved road network and the longer journey by rail into Victoria. For most, there is simply no option but to take the train to Waterloo.

The moment of most intense competition in the privatised rail network, when market forces can have the greatest positive impact on the rail passenger’s experience, comes during the tendering process for a rail franchise. After that, the impetus of competition within the sector principally benefits the train operating company or its supplier. For example, passengers have not benefited from South West Train's apparent decision to save money by limiting the use of 444 carriages, and they have not seen a reduction in ticket price or an improved service in the light of the cheaper lease cost of the 450s. It is incumbent on the Government to use the competitive forces of the tendering process to drive the best deal for passengers, and the best way to do that is to give passengers a voice in the process.

What consideration has the Department made of how to involve passengers in the tender process? I would also like to see, as you, Madam Deputy Speaker, and the Department for Transport know, comfort requirements included in new rail franchise agreements. It is a cause of some bewilderment to me that when contracting for services that have to carry passengers the length of the country there are no criteria for the standard of comfort they should expect on different sorts of journey. The fact that rolling stock manufacturers produce different classes of carriage shows that the industry recognises the different demands of suburban and inter-city travel and it should do in the rail franchise agreements.

In its response to the “Reforming Rail Franchising” consultation, the Government said that they

“may ask bidders to commit to quality improvements which are within their control, such as the onboard environment; station environment; customer service and information.”

What progress has the Department made in that respect? Will it make those matters necessary criteria in the bidding for new franchises?

I feel that perhaps I should apologise for putting the House through this litany of complaint once again, but I hesitate to do so because I am aware that my commuting constituents have lived with it on each of the three years and three days since its last outing in this Chamber. Will the Minister meet me to discuss these matters and work with me to ensure that, in another three years, by which time a new rail franchise agreement will have come in, I can—my constituents willing—make a rather different speech?

Shakespeare wrote:

“There is a tide in the affairs of men

Which, taken at the flood, leads on to fortune;

Omitted, all the voyage of their life

Is bound in shallows and in miseries”.

Let us take the opportunity of new rail franchise agreements to ensure that Britain’s railway users need not voyage in misery, but travel thanking their good fortune that my hon. Friend the Member for Wimbledon (Stephen Hammond) served as Minister for the Railways.

Rail Franchising

Penny Mordaunt Excerpts

Tuesday 26th March 2013 Commons Chamber

[Mr McLoughlin]

It certainly should not affect the delivery of the new trains. I know of no reason why it should and if I am wrong, I will obviously write to my hon. Friend.

[Penny Mordaunt (Portsmouth North) (Con)]

Portsmouth’s experience of franchises awarded under the last Government was that the rolling stock was downgraded from the agreement. When will passenger comfort and service standards be written into the agreements, to ensure that passengers have access to a toilet and that commuters are not crippled by suburban rolling stock being used on main line routes?

[Mr McLoughlin]

I am very disturbed to hear what my hon. Friend says, and I will certainly look into her points and get back to her in more detail in the very near future.

Rail Investment

Penny Mordaunt Excerpts

Monday 16th July 2012 Commons Chamber

[Justine Greening]

I am sure that we will look closely at the case my hon. Friend has made. I know he has worked very hard, alongside other local MPs, to see local railway services improved. Wimbledon itself is a key railway hub for his local area. It plays a really important role, and I am keen to see what we can do to improve it.

[Penny Mordaunt (Portsmouth North) (Con)]

I congratulate the Secretary of State on this announcement, and particularly the investment in the Portsmouth to London line and longer rail franchise agreements. If she will forgive my greed, will she consider writing into those new agreements basic passenger comfort standards, such as seat design and toilet provision, so we can ensure the quality and accessibility of these services?

[Justine Greening]

I have met my hon. Friend to discuss some of her concerns about the rolling stock used by some of her constituents on local lines. I take those points very seriously. That is why one of the pots of money we have set aside is to improve the passenger experience. It may seem like a small thing to have adequate toilet provision on trains, but for many people, particularly for mothers with kids, it is really important. My hon. Friend is therefore right to raise this point.

Oral Answers to Questions

Penny Mordaunt Excerpts

Thursday 10th November 2011 Commons Chamber

[Justine Greening]

I am always happy to meet parliamentarians. I will ensure that as Secretary of State for Transport I am out and about around the country. I have already started doing that and I would be very happy to meet the hon. Gentleman and his constituency colleagues.

[Penny Mordaunt (Portsmouth North) (Con)]

T3. I hope that in the Secretary of State’s induction, she has been made aware of the unsuitable suburban rolling stock used on the main line Portsmouth to London service. Is she also aware that 1970s rolling stock has been reintroduced on the Portsmouth to Brighton line? Will she meet me to discuss how we can ensure that Portsmouth passengers get the services they deserve and the services they pay for?

[The Minister of State, Department for Transport (Mrs Theresa Villiers)]

My hon. Friend and I have debated this issue before. She knows that I am reluctant for Ministers to have more hands-on involvement with the distribution of rolling stock on different lines, but I understand her concerns. My colleagues and I are of course happy to try to broker a solution, and I am pleased to say that my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State is happy to meet my hon. Friend to discuss this further.

Oral Answers to Questions

Penny Mordaunt Excerpts

Thursday 5th May 2011 Commons Chamber

[Penny Mordaunt (Portsmouth North) (Con)]

5. What plans he has for the reform of rail franchising; and if he will make a statement.

[Claire Perry (Devizes) (Con)]

6. What plans he has for the reform of rail franchising; and if he will make a statement.

[The Secretary of State for Transport (Mr Philip Hammond)]

The Government published “Reforming Rail Franchising: response to consultation and policy statement” on 19 January this year. In it we set out, among other things, our commitment to longer franchises, less prescriptive service requirements, and the transfer of stations to train operators. The Department is now considering, within the framework, the detailed invitation to tender for the intercity west coast franchise.

[Penny Mordaunt]

Since the Adjournment debate on South West Trains, I have received thousands of letters and e-mails from long-suffering passengers around the country who are having to put up with suburban trains on mainline routes. Is it not time that we had minimum standards of comfort set out in rail franchise agreements, and should not companies that ignore such concerns not have their franchises renewed?

[Mr Hammond]

I appreciate my hon. Friend’s campaign on that point, but the simple fact is that on many of our suburban railways, particularly those going into London, we have limited capacity. Trains are already at maximum length, and the number of train paths is already at the maximum capacity of the railway. Taking out seats to make them larger, which I think is my hon. Friend’s point, would simply mean more commuters standing, and those commuters who join the train closer to London are vehemently against that, so the Government have no plans at the moment to specify the size or configuration of seats in commuter trains.

Portsmouth-London Railway Line

Penny Mordaunt Excerpts

Wednesday 9th March 2011 Commons Chamber

[Penny Mordaunt (Portsmouth North) (Con)]

I wonder, Mr Speaker, whether on your outreach trips up and down the country you travel by rail. If you do, I wonder whether you like to look at your speech en route and to travel with your elbows. These are pertinent questions should you intend to come to Portsmouth to give us the benefit of your wisdom, for it seems that South West Trains expects its passengers not only not to work while travelling in standard class but not to have elbows either. A report commissioned by South West Trains on the ergonomics of its class 450 carriages, which are now on half the Portsmouth-London line, found that 59% of people, when their elbows are taken into account, will not fit into the seats. My admittedly anecdotal evidence shows that most people prefer to travel with their elbows most of the time. The only sense that one can make of that bald admission by South West Trains is that it explains why there are no arm rests on those services.

Allow me to describe the conditions in the class 450 Desiro carriage. The seats are arranged in a two-plus-three formation, so there are five seats across the width of the train. Each seat is 43 cm wide, but, crucially, there is no space between them. They are hard, they have no arm rests and the seat closest to the window is compromised by the heating channel encroaching into the foot space. Earlier today, I took the liberty of measuring out, on this very Bench, 129 cm from the Gangway and invited three hon. Friends to attempt to squeeze themselves into the space they would have for a 90-minute journey on the London-Portsmouth line. I am sorry to say that if my hon. Friends had been in a class 450 carriage, my hon. Friend the Member for Gosport (Caroline Dinenage) would have been 90% in the aisle. I hardly need to remind the House that this is the usual seat of my hon. Friend the Member for Louth and Horncastle (Sir Peter Tapsell), who, as we all know, is not a man to be crowded. We are accustomed to regular games of sardines as we squeeze ourselves into a Chamber with too few seats; if we cannot do it, what hope do others have? Crucially, we are content with this arrangement; we approved of the decisions of our predecessors to create a Chamber deliberately short of seats, but Portsmouth commuters are not content to play sardines every day.

[Damian Hinds (East Hampshire) (Con)]

I congratulate my hon. Friend on securing this important debate. Is she aware that this issue affects not only Portsmouth commuters but many of my constituents in Liss, Liphook and Petersfield, and that the same trains are used on the Alton line? Sometimes it is an issue not just of comfort but of health and safety—people with back trouble and so on.

[Penny Mordaunt]

My hon. Friend is absolutely right. I know that he has done a tremendous amount of work liaising with his constituents, especially those who commute to London, on this issue. He might also be aware that in 2005, when the 550 operated from Waterloo to Basingstoke and Alton, the Rail Passengers Council—the forerunner of Passenger Focus—said that the 450’s seating arrangements were

“only reasonable for the route on which they were run”—

that is, not suitable for a mainline service. Why, then, were those unsuitable carriages introduced to the Portsmouth-London line on 65% of the services in October 2006, before being scaled back again to 49% late in 2007? South West Trains claims that it met an urgent need to address overcrowding on the route, based on the 2005-06 passenger figures—a full 12-carriage rake of 450s having 140 more seats than the 10-carriage 444 rakes. Those passengers-in-excess-of-capacity figures for peak times showed that of the 23 services operated with the 444 carriages, only five showed standing figures of almost 100 or more, the worst being 272.

[Mr Mike Hancock (Portsmouth South) (LD)]

I congratulate the hon. Lady on securing the debate. I am sure she would agree that South West Trains makes easyJet look luxurious. But the real problem, surely, was the way in which the figures were massaged to suit the financial interests of South West Trains rather than the interests of the paying passengers. Does she agree that we should be a little more optimistic that the Minister this time will be a bit more successful in persuading South West Trains to do something about that than was her Labour predecessor, who tried and never got anywhere?

[Penny Mordaunt]

I thank the hon. Gentleman for that intervention. I will come to precisely those points and lay them before the House. I make no judgments, but I think the figures will speak for themselves. I also wish to offer the Minister some solutions, because it is part of the frustration for many commuters that the answers in terms of volumes of rolling stock are there.

Overcrowding is concentrated between Waterloo and Woking—the leg of the route that just takes the first 25 minutes. It should be recognised that trains between those stations operate about every four minutes. Those commuters have options, and the journey is suitable for a 450 carriage. Also, it seems that it is acceptable to have 97 people standing, as the eight-carriage 450 service—the 6.32, I believe, from Haslemere—that showed that figure did not need to expand. Admittedly, there is not the option there simply add a single coach, but the point remains.

Further undermining the argument that overcrowding must be addressed is the fact that the 140 extra seats cannot actually be used. People either cannot fit into them or choose not to. Portsmouth city council’s March 2010 survey found that 80% of people boarding south of Haslemere are not confident of getting a seat at busy times in a 450 carriage.

[Caroline Dinenage (Gosport) (Con)]

The residents of Gosport hugely appreciate my hon. Friend’s securing of this Adjournment debate. I wonder whether she understands that South West Trains has an awareness that it is not just commuters from Portsmouth who board those trains; it is also commuters who then go across to the Isle of Wight, and of course those who catch a ferry over to Gosport, which is one of the largest towns in the country without its own railway station.

[Penny Mordaunt]

I thank my hon. Friend for her intervention. South West Trains cannot be anything other than aware of the enormous numbers of people who have been affected. As my hon. Friend the Member for Portsmouth South (Mr Hancock) said, the problems have been going on for many years, and it is a source of great frustration that no solution has yet been found.

Returning to the number of seats and the difficulty of getting a seat south of Haslemere at busy times, 25% of people cannot find a seat at all. If it were a simple matter of the number of seats, there would not be such problems. We have a situation in which similar numbers of people might end up standing, but in a much narrower gangway. Network Rail reports that food sales at its stations are up 5%. I am sure Portsmouth residents are doing their bit, stocking up before boarding in the knowledge that the at-seat trolley service will be hauled up somewhere around the lavatory, where it will be in good company with the similarly impeded train guard.

The Association of Train Operating Companies reported 1.32 billion passenger journeys in 2010, 7% up on 2009 and 37% up on 2000—indeed, a number not seen since commuters could enjoy the charms of steam power. We should not allow this top-line figure to distort the true pattern of travel on individual lines. Even as a response to increased demand, the provision of more unusable seats is hardly adequate. In any case, surely it was a disproportionate response to replace 450s on more than 50% of weekday services, when only 10 or so out of 133 weekday services showed high numbers of standing passengers.

We must wonder why, if overcrowding were the only motivation for change, services that were not overcrowded or had only, say, 10 standing passengers were replaced with the 450s. Outside peak times, the service is not at all stressed, yet during the week 53% of services are formed of 450 trains. Although I do not make any allegations—I merely offer the House the information—the carriage leasing company, Angel Trains, has confirmed that the 444 is as much as 20% more expensive to lease than the 450.

In the face of repeated lobbying from passengers of South West Trains, the company has held firm to the line that it must increase capacity. It has succeeded in increasing the number of seats. It has not succeeded in increasing the number of places to sit. A seat on which one cannot sit is a seat in name only. South West Trains dismisses criticism of the 450 carriages as mere “comfort” concerns and a simple preference for the 444. Well, quite. The 444s have two plus two seating, tables, arm rests and seats 45 cm wide, with a 4 cm space between them. What’s not to like?

What makes the situation even more frustrating for commuters is that South West Trains has 45 carriage units of 444 carriages. Passenger groups have devised service diagrams that show that a full 444 service could be operated with just over half that number. There is thus no need for passengers to endure the discomfort that at present is their lot. I accept that service programmes are a complex business and changes could have implications for other lines, although my research shows that these would not be detrimental.

The cause of passengers is not helped by the fact that there are no departmental guidelines on comfort. Comfort does not feature in any rail franchise agreements, or for that matter in the recent Reforming Rail Franchising consultation. However, the Department for Transport is alive to the dangers of inadequate provision being foisted upon passengers. The national rail franchise terms state that, excluding additional passenger services,

“the Franchisee shall maintain the composition of the Train Fleet during the Franchise Term, unless the Secretary of State otherwise agrees, such that there are no changes to the Train Fleet, including changes:

(a) to the classes or types;

(b) to the interior configurations; or

(c) which may reduce the journey time capabilities, of any rolling stock vehicles specified in the Train Fleet.”

It is true that franchises might be negotiated with a change of stock in mind, but patently the Department accepts the need to protect passengers. Furthermore, the coalition programme for government states:

“We will grant longer franchises in order to give operators the incentive to invest in the improvements passengers want.”

Such improvements include better services, better stations, longer trains and better rolling stock. The problem is that there is no incentive for train operating companies on mainline routes, as they operate in a protected market, and frequently have a monopoly. Contrary to what some TOCs said in their submissions to the consultation, inter-city lines have less competition than suburban lines. Cars and coaches are simply not viable alternatives, and certainly not if one hopes to work while travelling.

It is with hope and expectation, therefore, that I seize on the Government’s statement in their response to the franchise consultation:

“For intercity services revenue incentives may be sufficient to encourage operators to continue to strive to maintain and improve service quality. However, we may ask bidders to commit to quality improvements which are within their control, such as onboard environment; station environment; customer service and information.”

First, what is the need for better comfort, if not to improve the onboard environment? The Department for Transport should produce guidelines on passenger comfort for each type of railway line, and they should become mandatory minimum requirements in future rail franchise agreements. It should be made plain to franchise holders that failure to meet the guidelines before renewal dates will compromise their suitability to continue as operators.

Secondly, it is within the control of South West Trains to improve its service now. It has the carriages; the rail passenger groups have the service diagrams. If South West Trains contends that it could restore the 444 services to the London-Portsmouth line only by leasing more of them and putting up prices, I would ask why prices did not come down when the cheaper 450s were introduced. I hope that the Minister will prevail on South West Trains to look at how the distribution of carriages could be realigned so that no service is disadvantaged by the improvements to the Portsmouth line. South West Trains and the Department should look at what carriage capacity is available, and open dialogues with other TOCs if necessary.

Thirdly and finally, I would ask that a meeting be convened at which departmental Ministers and officials, Members of Parliament and passengers groups can discuss with South West Trains what must change and how quickly it can be done. People such as David Habershon, Bruce Oliver and John Holland, who have done so much to represent their fellow commuters, and to help me prepare for this debate, should be able to address their concerns directly to SWT executives across the table. Commuters on the London-Portsmouth line pay handsomely for their rail tickets. In return they should be able to travel to our capital for business or pleasure without being in discomfort or running the risk of doing themselves harm. South West Trains does a good job in many respects. It has the power to put right what it has got wrong, and I hope that it will do so in short order.

--- Later in debate ---

[Mrs Villiers]

I am always happy to respond to the concerns of colleagues; I am happy to look at the numbers again and ask my officials to do that. As I shall point out later, however, there are very real capacity problems on the line that would be difficult to address without the use of class 450s.

[Penny Mordaunt]

The key part of my argument, which I hope the Minister will understand, is that South West Trains has not addressed overcrowding on the line. The fact that spaces for people to sit are provided does not mean that people have space to sit down. The group of people who suffer overcrowding potentially are the same group of people who suffer painful and uncomfortable seats. They are the same group of people who are asking for the new trains.

[Mrs Villiers]

I very much understand my hon. Friend’s concern, but in reality we—the Government and the train operator—have to balance the interests of different communities along the line. Even if it were affordable to replace all the 450s with class 444s, and even if they were used on all services, it would have a significant detrimental impact on people further up the line, many of whom would not be able to get a seat as a result. I shall come to that in a moment, however.

The most recent route utilisation strategy work makes it clear that the infrastructure is just too full to deliver additional trains. That leaves limited options for relieving overcrowding, one of which is to use longer trains with more seats, which the operator has chosen to do. The seats on the 450s provide vital capacity for passengers closer to London. If SWT were to use class 444s for all Portsmouth services, it would worsen peak crowding problems from stations such as Guildford and Woking. More passengers would have to stand between Woking and London than do today, and removing 450s from the Portsmouth to London route might have other knock-on effects, such as displacing the class 450 carriages on to the Weymouth line, where journey times are even longer than from Portsmouth to London.

We all accept that key crowding between Portsmouth to London occurs during peak hours. In response to public concern of the sort that my hon. Friend has raised, SWT has promised to use 444s in the off-peak where it can. The extent to which it can do this, though, is dependent on complex issues to do with timetabling and the availability of trains and train crew. These complexities flow from the intense use we make of our railways and the need to deploy rolling stock and staff in a way that generates maximum passenger benefits. That means that some off-peak trains have to be class 450s to ensure that they are in the right place for the peak-time slots.

My hon. Friend set out her view that three-plus-two seating is not suitable for services on journeys of the 90-or-so minutes that her constituents face in getting to London. I can understand her concerns. However, three-plus-two seating is currently deployed on a number of routes with comparable journey times—for example, journeys between London stations and Margate, and London Liverpool Street and Ipswich. Issues of health and safety are the responsibility of Her Majesty’s railway inspectorate and the Office of Rail Regulation. Neither of those bodies, I am afraid, has sought to restrict the use of class 450s on longer-distance journeys.

At the heart of my hon. Friend’s speech is the request that the Government should introduce new requirements on rolling stock seating into current and future franchises. I hope that she will understand that to intervene in the current franchise and require SWT to change its rolling stock would involve renegotiating contractual terms. This always comes at a cost to the taxpayer—a cost that I am afraid we can ill afford when we are striving to address levels of borrowing inherited from the previous Government which are the highest in our peacetime history. Looking forward to what might be included in the next franchise, she will be aware that the decisions that the Government make on the railways are constrained by a number of factors, including infrastructure capacity, affordability and value for money.

The experiences of my hon. Friend’s constituents reflect some of the very difficult trade-offs that are made on our railways every day of the year. I acknowledge, of course, that many passengers in Portsmouth would probably prefer the environment and the seating pattern of class 444 carriages rather than class 450s. However, for the practical reasons that I set out in my response about crowding levels further up the line and infrastructure limitations, I would be unwise to make promises on the pattern of rolling stock use on the Portsmouth line in the future. Changes of the sort that she would like in relation to the seating patterns on trains would have a significant impact on the affordability of the franchise process.

As well as these practical considerations, there is another reason why I am reluctant to make declarations on rolling stock deployment on the south-western franchise in years to come. We are in the process of reforming franchises, and we have recently completed a consultation on this. A significant element of the approach that we propose would involve giving railway professionals greater flexibility to make key operational decisions to enable them to react more effectively to passenger needs and to run their services in a more commercial way. We do not envisage specifying detailed operational issues such as the seating layout of rolling stock required on specific routes, as we do not believe that it makes sense to take that sort of decision in Whitehall. We want instead to put in place the right incentives to ensure that operators respond to passengers during the period of their franchises. We will therefore be looking to include demanding requirements on service quality.

[Penny Mordaunt]

I would very much like to hear from the Minister a commitment on this and an understanding of the implications of these types of seating, especially over long journeys. While I acknowledge that these trains are being used for longer journeys elsewhere, this is causing a tremendous amount of physical damage. People are having to employ osteopaths and chiropractors and are really suffering. It is not just a comfort but a health and safety issue. There are a wide range of options—for example, sticking the different trains together when they get to Guildford. Often, trains join up when they get to Guildford, and class 450 carriages can be put on when they get to Guildford and Woking to allow other commuters to use them. If they are in operation down in Portsmouth, people will sit on the comfier seats first. Also, there is other rolling stock that the Department is trying to do something with—I think that they are called class 460s and they used to be on the Gatwick line. There must be a solution to this out there, and I urge the Minister to pull the train operating companies together to try to find it.

[Mrs Villiers]

I am happy to work with my hon. Friend and the train operating company to see whether there are alternatives that have not been considered which can be brought into play without unfairly compromising the interests of passengers on a different part of the route, and without affecting the affordability of the franchise for taxpayers and fare payers. I encourage her to continue this dialogue with the train operator, and I am happy to take part in that. I think she will accept that I cannot promise to issue a directive to train operating companies on the detail of the seating plans of their rolling stock. That would not be affordable and it is not the right long-term option for the management of the railways in this country.

I appreciate the opportunity to debate this issue with my hon. Friend. As I have said, I am happy to continue to work with her to see whether a compromise can be found. I look forward to meeting her, and perhaps other colleagues who have attended this debate, to discuss the matter further.

Question put and agreed to.