Sentencing Review and Prison Capacity

Debate between Paul Kohler and Shabana Mahmood

Tuesday 22nd October 2024 Commons Chamber

[Shabana Mahmood]

We will make sure that the review panel, when it is fully put together, includes somebody with experience of working with victims of crime to make sure that that perspective is fully reflected in the investigations that the review undertakes and, ultimately, in its findings and recommendations.

[Mr Paul Kohler (Wimbledon) (LD)]

May I congratulate the Lord Chancellor on the terms of reference of this review, and the appointment of the excellent David Gauke? I remain concerned, however, about the Government’s evident enthusiasm for increasing capacity. May I ask the Lord Chancellor directly whether she agrees with her colleague in the other place that we imprison too many people in this country? Is the Lord Chancellor’s ultimate aim to reduce the prison population?

[Shabana Mahmood]

We need to make sure that we have the prison places we need to lock up those who have to be locked up. That is fundamentally non-negotiable. We have to see an increase in prison capacity. I mentioned earlier that the previous Government failed to deliver 14,000 places. Without them, we will run out of prison places again. We have to build the supply, and we have to do better on reoffending. All these things are equally important, and they all have to be done at the same time. I will not set arbitrary figures for how many people can and should go to prison. I want to ensure that we never again run out of prison places, that we do better on rehabilitation and that we expand punishment outside prison.

Criminal Law

Debate between Paul Kohler and Shabana Mahmood

Thursday 25th July 2024 Commons Chamber

[Shabana Mahmood]

I will happily return or write to the right hon. Lady in respect of specific local authorities. The impact of prison capacity is uneven, but it is also in flux on a daily basis. On money and the long-term supply of prison places, we will be publishing a 10-year prison capacity strategy, which will deal with the long-term plans that our Government have to increase supply of prison places.

[Mr Paul Kohler (Wimbledon) (LD)]

We do indeed need to build more prisons, because, as was said, the present stock is not fit for purpose, but if we build more prisons to increase capacity, we will just end up with more prisoners. All the evidence suggests that prison population is a supply-led industry, and more prisons means more prisoners. I remind the Lord Chancellor that her colleague in the other place has made it clear that a third of prisoners should not be there. What will she do to look at alternatives to prison for the sad and wretched, not the cruel and dangerous?

[Shabana Mahmood]

Let me be clear to the hon. Gentleman and the House. The Government will ensure that we have the prison places that we need so that we can protect the public and deal with the supply-side issues we have inherited from the previous Tory Government, who did not build the 20,000 places that they said would be ready by next year; they delivered only 6,000. In addition to providing the prison places that the country needs, we will deal with the problem of reoffending, because we are determined to ensure that we do not keep creating more and more victims. That is a strategy for cutting crime and for putting victims first.

The Government have taken action where before us came inaction. Once this action takes effect from September, we will be able to end the immediate crisis in our prisons, giving us time to introduce desperately needed long-term measures. This has been welcomed by voices from across the criminal justice system, from senior police officers to my predecessor in this role. It is the only safe option available to us, and to choose to act otherwise would leave our country in a state of unconscionable risk; one that I am not willing to take. For that reason, I commend the draft instrument to the House.

Question put.