Cash Acceptance

Patricia Gibson Excerpts

Monday 20th March 2023 Westminster Hall

[Martyn Day]

I agree entirely with my hon. Friend’s good points. It appears to be something that concerns very many people. Research from Which? has shown that 82% of Scottish consumers are likely to keep cash in case electronic payments are down.

[Patricia Gibson (North Ayrshire and Arran) (SNP)]

My hon. Friend is making a powerful case about the importance of having the choice to use cash. Does he agree that access to cash is fundamental to this debate? In order for people to have the choice to use cash, access to it is at the basis of all that we are seeking to do.

[Martyn Day]

Absolutely, and I will come to that later in my speech. I hope the Minister takes cognisance of that well-made point.

There are also those who have valid privacy concerns about electronic payments. In an age of technology, algorithms, digital footprints and cyber-crimes, it is understandable that some—perhaps many—of our constituents would prefer the financial privacy offered by cash transactions. Some constituents wrote to me in recent weeks to make that point. Many stated that they regard barriers to using cash as a violation of their right to privacy. Cash clearly remains an important and valued part of our transactional landscape. As such, the ability to access and use cash must be protected.

In their response to both petitions, the Government state:

“The Government does not intend to mandate cash acceptance.”

They say that they will instead make provisions through the Financial Services and Markets Bill to ensure reasonable access to infrastructure such as withdrawal and deposit facilities. Of course, the availability of such infrastructure is clearly a concern for consumers and businesses. In Scotland, 53% of bank branches have closed since 2015, and since 2018 some 20% of Scotland’s free-to-use ATMs have closed. In many communities, banks have withdrawn completely, often leaving the post offices as the last place in town to do basic banking.

--- Later in debate ---

[Patricia Gibson (North Ayrshire and Arran) (SNP)]

Let me begin by thanking my hon. Friend the Member for Linlithgow and East Falkirk (Martyn Day) for his excellent exposition of the challenges that we face. This e-petition debate calling for the legal right to use cash payments in shops and requiring all businesses and public services to accept cash payments is very important. Since I was first elected, repeated concerns have been expressed about the decline of our cash infrastructure and the need to preserve it. I have spoken in every single debate on this matter, along with the hon. Member for Blackpool North and Cleveleys (Paul Maynard), yet here we are again. It feels like we are banging our heads against a wall as we face, with increasing urgency, the existential crisis facing our cash infrastructure.

The arguments are well rehearsed, and have been again today. There is no denying that, as a result of changes wrought by the covid pandemic, the future of cash is even more uncertain. Many of us in this Chamber and beyond fear that its demise has been accelerated. Ultimately, this is a debate about inclusion—financial inclusion—and consumer choice. The situation becomes ever more urgent with every debate that we have on this issue and with each passing day. I wish to pay tribute to and commend the Scottish Affairs Committee for its report, which is a most informative and constructive contribution to the wider debate.

From the outset, it is important to underline the fact that the right to use cash, as the hon. Member for Blackpool North and Cleveleys said, cannot be separated from free access to cash. There is no point in legally ensuring the right to use cash if there is no reasonable access to cash. It is important to remember that, in Scotland, this debate takes place in the context of bank closures. This matters, because without access to cash it is simply not possible to use cash. That cannot be said too often. Fifty three per cent of Scotland’s bank branches have closed. In my constituency, the situation is nothing less than appalling. Kilbirnie has no bank. Beith has no bank. Dalry has no bank. West Kilbride has no bank. Kilwinning has no bank. Stevenston has no bank. Ardrossan has no bank. Indeed, in the whole of my constituency only Saltcoats, Largs and Isle of Arran have a bank branch. If we are to protect the cash infrastructure, we need a two-pronged approach: protecting access to cash and protecting the legal right to use cash.

Overall, Scotland has suffered the highest percentage loss of bank branches among all the nations in the UK. It is against that backdrop that any debate about access to cash and the use of cash must take place. Alongside this, we see our post offices under threat, as postmasters struggle to make even the minimum wage. In all the towns in my constituency, the post offices—those towns have no banks—play a vital role in supporting our cash infrastructure, because the banks have washed their hands of the matter. Yet, as an example, the town centre in Kilwinning has now lost its post office. Although Post Office Ltd is working hard to find a sub-postmaster to take on the franchise, it is proving very challenging because it is so hard to turn a profit or even make minimum wage for the franchisee. Of course, it is true to say that the last Labour Government closed down a whole slew of post offices, including many in my constituency, and stripped others of the services that they were able to deliver. All this has been exacerbated by the winding down of the energy support on which post offices currently rely.

Of course, it would help if the banks paid postmasters properly for the work they do on the banks’ behalf as they abandon our towns. Banks must value postmasters, who are picking up the pieces left behind by doing the banks’ work for them and for insufficient remuneration. The situation is simply unacceptable and has placed an unsustainable burden on postmasters, and I look forward to hearing the Minister’s thoughts on that specific matter.

As if all this was not enough, we see a worrying decline in cash machines, especially free-to-use cash machines, in communities across Scotland. This is especially so in rural areas, as we have heard. The Centre for Social Justice recently found that 38% of people on low incomes report having faced cash machine charges, compared with 17% of all consumers. That is what you call a poverty premium: the exploitative practice of placing a disproportionate number of pay-to-use cash machines in our most socioeconomically challenged communities.

Access to cash is vital if we are to demand, as we should and do, that there be a legal right to use cash, and there must be a requirement that all businesses and public services should accept cash. As we have heard, the vast majority of us use cash often and when it is convenient to do so. Indeed, for many rural dwellers, there may be little choice due to digital challenges, which may be exacerbated by the weather, as we have seen in recent weeks, as well as by technical glitches, which can strike without warning at any time. For the most vulnerable customers, there must be the option to access and use cash if that is what they require and is most convenient for them.

The Financial Conduct Authority has found that over 1 million adults in the UK do not have a bank account. There are also many who struggle to manage budgets electronically, and others who simply prefer to manage their daily transactions in cash, such as older people and those on a budget. They would face financial exclusion if our cash infrastructure is allowed to deteriorate further. We know that many consumers were unable to buy what they needed during covid, and that 38% were turned away when trying to buy food from shops using cash. What happens to those who have no alternative to cash payments? Are they to be abandoned? What happened to the customer being king?

Anyone who has ever faced any level of financial difficulty knows that, when this is the case, banks cancel credit cards and advice centres giving debt advice advise clients to cut their cards in half. They do that to help people control their spending and manage their budget better, because we know that using plastic can often lead to losing track and overspending.

[Margaret Ferrier]

Research has shown that carrying cash can help people with gambling issues to budget, avoid debt and better control their habits. By contrast, it is harder for people to retain control and keep track of their spending while using debit cards. Does the hon. Lady agree that the UK Government must ensure that cash remains a viable payment method to safeguard against the risks of gambling harm?

[Patricia Gibson]

Yes, and we expect gambling companies to step up and take greater responsibility for the harm that gambling outlets can cause. Of course, we know that there are more ways to gamble on high streets in socioeconomically deprived communities than in better-off communities, which is another scandal that we really should debate another day.

People actually handling cash and seeing in real time what money they are spending is critical to helping them budget—even more so when budgets are under so much pressure and are so much more precarious during this cost of living crisis, when everything costs more each time we go to the supermarket.

There is, of course, another side to this. Electronic payments incur a cost for firms, especially those making many small transactions. The UK Government should seek to address that to help to support our overall cash infrastructure. It is not right that businesses should have to pay those fees. While the provisions of the Financial Services and Markets Bill, which grants new powers to the Financial Conduct Authority over the UK’s largest banks and building societies to ensure that cash withdrawal and deposit facilities are available in communities across the country, were welcome, as many people have said in this debate, we need more detail. We need to know how that will work in practice. Again, I am hoping that the Minister will tell us more about that when he responds.

However, it is and has been clear for a long, long time—it was made even clearer as we tried to get back to normal after the pandemic—for a range of reasons that have been well rehearsed today and previously that consumers want and need the choice to pay for goods and services in cash. Consumers must not be forced down a cashless road which they do not want or are simply unable to go down. The Government should uphold that right and protect our cash infrastructure for all the sound reasons debated today. They should enshrine that right in legislation, which is becoming increasingly necessary.

Fundamental to all this is protecting free access to cash in all our communities. Financial inclusion matters, and the Government have a moral duty to uphold that in principle as well as in practice.

[Hannah Bardell (in the Chair)]

I call the Opposition spokesperson.

--- Later in debate ---

[Andrew Griffith]

The hon. Member makes a good point. He talked a lot about his rural constituency, which is a little larger than mine but also very rural, and brought that to life by talking about the Grantown-on-Spey annual show. He is quite right, but if he will bear with me, I will talk about the solution to precisely the problem he raises. This is not just an issue of access to cash, or the use of cash, but, as my hon. Friend the Member for Blackpool North and Cleveleys (Paul Maynard) said, about how we can ensure that businesses and retailers have access to facilities to deposit cash. I will come on to discuss the legislative action that I assure the House we are taking on precisely that point.

I have followed this debate extremely closely so, to be clear, let me say for the Government that there is no plan, no drive and no conspiracy to eliminate cash. This Government continue to support the ability of citizens to use cash as an alternative to digital payments, and I am proud that the Government are taking legislative steps to support the use of cash well into the foreseeable future. It is this Government, for the first time, who are taking those legislative steps.

A number of Members have talked about the fact that the way people make payments is changing. We have seen that over time. Analogies have been drawn with the transition from analogue to digital television and with decimalisation—I do not remember that, but the Father of the House was not shy about his recall of going through that transition. Digital payments play an important role in people’s lives. We see that from our own experience in the Tea Room of this House and also from the data. The industry body UK Finance found that in 2021 non-cash transactions accounted for 85% of UK payments, up from 45% a decade earlier and 60% in 2016. That is a really fast rate of change. I do not say that to unsettle anybody in respect of the continued attachment to cash, but it does mean that we in this place have to contemplate very rapid changes in society and technology.

Cash remains important for millions of people across the UK. We are an ageing society, and many Members have talked about the vulnerable groups—my hon. Friend the Member for North Norfolk (Duncan Baker) thought it was about 10 million people—who make up a significant part of society. We should rightly have great recourse to work out how we can protect them, whether that is through support with the convenience of managing their finances or with other vulnerabilities. Members made some great points about the importance of managing finances through the use of cash.

This is about striking a balance in society, which we have sought to do through the Financial Services and Markets Bill. I want to offer reassurance and protection for those who seek it. I am conscious that not everyone will be as familiar with the clause-by-clause detail of the Bill as the hon. Member for Hampstead and Kilburn and I am. That Bill, which has made its passage through the House, will mean that for the first time, not just since the hon. Member for Tiverton and Honiton (Richard Foord) scrabbled for coins himself but since ancient Celts first manufactured coins on this great isle of ours, there will be statutory protection of access to cash and the ability to deposit cash. It is important that we get that Bill on the statute book in this time of rapid change. It will cover access to deposit facilities on a similar basis as access to cash withdrawal.

My hon. Friend the Member for North Norfolk reminded us that this is the domain not just of the banks and ATMs, but also the extensive post office network. I know that postmasters—notwithstanding the loss to the profession of my hon. Friend—do a fantastic job in our rural communities. We should support them, and we do want to see that support. The provision of cash and banking services can be one way in which we underwrite their continued service to the community.

[Patricia Gibson]

Will the Minister explain what my constituents in Kilwinning will do when the town centre has lost its bank? It will be a population of 16,000 with no bank and no post office. What advice would he give to the businesses and residents of Kilwinning?

[Andrew Griffith]

I advise the hon. Lady to explore with Link the provision of potential alternative cash machines and to explore with the Access to Cash Action Group the potential for a banking hub. A number of Members have procured banking hubs for their constituencies. The hon. Member for Tiverton and Honiton has a banking hub and has spoken up about that issue.

[Andrew Griffith]

I will happily entertain treatises from the hon. Gentleman if he would like me to follow that up. There are 70 cash hubs on their way. Members throughout the House, including a number of his colleagues in Devon, have procured them. It sometimes takes a little while for them to appear because of planning issues or the need to get the right power arrangements and safe access in place for constituents. If the hon. Gentleman will bear with the banking hubs and work with them, he will find that there are solutions out there.

My hon. Friend the Member for Blackpool North and Cleveleys talked about the no-purchase cashback facility, which turns every single convenience store and retailer in the country into a potential cash-dispensing hub.

[Patricia Gibson]

Will the Minister give way?

[Andrew Griffith]

I will give way one final time before the hon. Lady combusts.

[Patricia Gibson]

I gently say to the Minister that local corner shops do not want to be cash dispensers. There are all sorts of security issues relating to no-purchase cashback.

[Andrew Griffith]

The hon. Lady makes an important point, although perhaps not the one she intended, about some of the challenges of cash in a rural location.