Parental Bereavement (Leave and Pay) Bill

Patricia Gibson Excerpts

3rd reading: House of Commons & Report stage: House of Commons
Friday 11th May 2018 Commons Chamber

[Kevin Foster]

I thank my hon. Friend for helping to bring some clarity to the matter. I did not want to get back to the old idea of what a “proper job” is that some of us used to hear at school. It is amazing how many people thought that certain things were proper jobs, and it has to be said that it was mostly men and that a proper job was one that was traditionally male orientated—surprise, surprise—and other things were just basic jobs. However, the sorts of jobs that were once dismissed—in care, healthcare and other areas—are vital in today’s economy, and we need people to be doing them and to see them as the type of job and career that they want to go into.

While exploring the Bill, I was concerned that we should not end up with Parliament in effect asking the Minister to draw up a list of every job he could possibly think of and every type of employment activity that could ever be done for an employer, so amendment 8 is about targeting whether someone is employed. I am conscious that we have to make sure that our language and intentions are fairly clear. We should bear in mind our brief debate on another private Member’s Bill, the Unpaid Trial Work Periods (Prohibition) Bill. Most of us would think that a trial was a very short period—perhaps an hour or two, just to see how someone mixed with a team—but the hon. Member for Glasgow South (Stewart Malcolm McDonald) gave an example of a place that had interpreted a trial as several weeks of working for nothing. Clearly, none of us would view that as a trial; the process was just about trying to dodge minimum and living wage legislation. We need to make sure that there is no opportunity to misuse what we all might think are reasonable words in the English language.

I am conscious of time and wish to give others the opportunity to speak. I shall listen carefully to the arguments made by the Minister and the Bill’s promoter, my hon. Friend the Member for Thirsk and Malton, when they speak about my amendments. I have been reassured by some of the interventions I have taken from my hon. Friend, and I thank my hon. Friend the Member for Colchester for his interventions, which have helped to clarify some points. To be clear, I will support the Bill even if my amendments are not accepted. It would not be beneficial for anyone if the Bill was not passed.

This welcome Bill will help many in the darkest times of their lives. My hon. Friend the Member for Thirsk and Malton can take great pride in the difference that his Bill will make to those people, and my hon. Friends the Members for Eddisbury and for Colchester can take great pride in how they have used their personal experience to help others who end up in the same position. I support the Bill wholeheartedly and hope that the discussion of my amendments will help to make it even better.

[Patricia Gibson (North Ayrshire and Arran) (SNP)]

It is a pleasure to follow the hon. Member for Torbay (Kevin Foster).

I thank the hon. Member for Thirsk and Malton (Kevin Hollinrake) for bringing forward this Bill and for the consensual and sensitive approach that he has demonstrated as he piloted the Bill to this stage. I appreciate all the work that he has done to ensure that, finally, the anomaly and the injustice of bereaved parents not having any protection in employment law is addressed. I also thank the members of the Bill Committee. I make special mention of the hon. Members for Colchester (Will Quince) and for Eddisbury (Antoinette Sandbach), with whom I have made common cause on this issue.

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[Kevin Hollinrake]

May I put on record my thanks to the hon. Lady for her work on this Bill, particularly during Committee stage. Earlier, she said that we had worked together to improve this Bill. I and my hon. Friend the Member for Colchester (Will Quince) were delighted that the Government were willing to accept her amendment on stillbirth. That is a clear sign of how cross-party working can improve legislation as it goes through the House. That particular amendment will always be attributed to my hon. Friend the Member for Colchester and the hon. Lady.

[Patricia Gibson]

I thank the hon. Gentleman for his kind words. What the Bill has shown, across this House, is the best of what the House of Commons can be. It is unfortunate that we cannot work in a more consensual manner on many more issues. On an issue such as this, when it is about human beings, compassion and feelings for our fellow man, this House has come out today looking much better than it often does. I thank the hon. Gentleman for his words.

To face the death of a son or daughter with no entitlement to paid leave under the law is a terrible injustice that generations of people before us have suffered. I am proud to say that, today, we will correct that. The Bill sets out a minimum leave period of two weeks. I know that that is not very long, but given that currently there is no entitlement at all, it offers a start and provides legal recognition that the response to such a life-changing event can no longer be—and should no longer be—a matter of discretion for employers. This is one of those days when, whatever criticism people make of the House of Commons, either justified or unjustified, we can feel that we are making a real and practical difference to people’s lives as they face the worst circumstances imaginable—the death of their child.

Let me turn to amendments 22 and 23. We know the trauma that accompanies the death of a child. The first reaction is shock and disbelief, especially in the case of a sudden death. A parent may initially refuse to accept the loss and try to continue as normal, blocking out the experience, which is a common feature of trauma. For some parents, going on as far as possible as though the death is not “real” will be a reaction that helps them cope. Keeping busy is a coping strategy that many use and one that, to a great extent, my own husband used when our baby was stillborn at full term. People cope with the devastation of losing a child in a variety of ways. As the hon. Member for Torbay pointed out, there is no right or wrong way to do this. That is why the amendments are important. If they are passed, they will provide a signal to bereaved parents. The Bill is saying, “We recognise the trauma of your loss and we recognise its life-changing nature, but it is important that you take your leave between these particular weeks, from this date to that date.” I do not believe that that is really what we wish to do; it is not the message that we want to send out, which is why flexibility is so important.

[Edward Argar (Charnwood) (Con)]

It was a pleasure to serve with the hon. Lady on the Bill Committee. She is absolutely right to highlight the importance of flexibility and also of respect that each person is an individual and that each family copes in different ways. In some tragic cases, there are also practical reasons why greater flexibility is needed. For example, if there is an inquest or an inquiry into a death, that may come significantly later, and that may be a period when leave is needed to cope with the trauma of that event.

[Patricia Gibson]

The hon. Gentleman makes an excellent point, and I was just about to move on to that. I agree wholeheartedly with his insightful remarks.

It is simply not appropriate or desirable to set an early time frame as to when bereavement leave should be taken. Some parents may feel the need for leave only when they have had time—it can be months later—to deal with the enormity of the loss, and when the reality of the loss has sunk in.

Much of the discussion around this Bill seems to be predicated on the loss of a child after illness. Yes, it is true, far too many families are devastated by watching a child ravaged by some terrible, unforgiving disease against which they have so few resources to defend themselves, but let us not forget that children die in a variety of circumstances. The sudden and unexpected loss of a child is no less traumatic. When a parent loses their child in dramatic and sudden circumstances, they will have had no idea that the last time they saw their child would be the last time that they saw them alive. Then there is some horrific accident—perhaps a car accident or some other type of accident—and in a moment, families are destroyed by grief and the cruel random nature of events.

We need flexibility not just to allow parents to grieve in their own way in their own time, but, as the hon. Member for Charnwood (Edward Argar) said, to deal with a fatal accident inquiry, which is what would happen in Scotland, or a coroner’s inquiry in England. There may be a court case; perhaps even a trial. We have to consider all of those circumstances. There may be a significant gap between the loss of the child and the burial. There is a whole host of reasons why leave for bereaved parents must be flexible. If it is not, I fear that bereaved parents, whose employers—a small minority of them—are not as sympathetic as they might be, may face losing their jobs as well as losing their child. Bereaved parents must have the full protection of the law. I urge the Minister to consider this carefully. I am sure that he will, because he is a reasonable fellow.

Amendments 24 and 25 seek to recognise that the loss of a son or daughter is traumatic and life-changing no matter how old, or what age, that son or daughter may be. I think we all understand that it is against the natural order of events for any parent to bury their own child. We have the opportunity to recognise that in this Bill. I am sure that everyone in this House, and beyond it, would agree that losing a son or daughter aged 17 is a tragedy that should not and must not be treated differently from losing a son or daughter aged 19, 21, 23 or 25—we can pick whatever age we like.

[Patrick Grady (Glasgow North) (SNP)]

I pay tribute to the hard work that my hon. Friend has put into this Bill and the passion with which she is speaking. She has had very personal experiences that have led to her commitment to taking all this forward.

This amendment is important because the relationship between parents and their offspring is changing. Nowadays, children may go back to live with their parents at much later ages—indeed, well into their adult lives—due to a range of changing societal circumstances. Those wider societal changes make the amendment much more important and relevant to the modern world. I hope that the Minister will consider that.

[Patricia Gibson]

My hon. Friend makes an excellent point. We have to bear it in mind that the relationship between a parent and a child, even as the child grows up and becomes an adult themselves, is rather special. As he says, the traditional picture of young people growing up and moving out is no longer borne out in the statistics, for a variety of reasons. The relationship of parents and children living in the same house has to be recognised at any age, but also even when they are not living in the same house.

I understand why the Government have put this into the Bill, but drawing the line at the age of 18 when we are talking about the death of a child appears to me to be quite random and artificial. I do not think that such a distinction is appropriate in the context of the loss of a son or daughter. Loss is loss, whether or not someone’s son or daughter is their dependant. I ask the Minister and the whole House to keep it in mind that this Bill’s focus and starting point—we need only look at the title—is the bereaved parent, not the child. It is not about the circumstances of the age at which the child is lost—it is about protecting parents.

When a son or daughter is lost at an older age, the discussion—in relation to this Bill, at least—becomes more academic. As the hon. Member for Torbay pointed out, the older a parent is when they lose their son or daughter, the more likely it is that they will be retired anyway and will not need the protection of this Bill.

[Kevin Foster]

The hon. Lady is making some powerful points. She is right that this is about the impact on the person. As I said, my grandmother was into her late 70s and her son was 59, but his death still impacted her very strongly emotionally.

[Patricia Gibson]

I thank the hon. Gentleman for that intervention. I listened very carefully to the personal example that he gave us from his own family, which makes the point very well.

I ask the House to consider some other examples, such as that of a daughter aged 24 with a young child of her own whom she is perhaps bringing up on her own. As the Bill stands, if she were to die, her bereaved parents would not have any of the support that it could offer, even though there may be a thousand reasons why they will need bereavement leave—for example, the support that their grandchild might need if she had been bringing the child up on her own. I put to the House an interesting example that is completely, and sadly too often, within the realms of possibility. What about a son aged 25 who would not be covered by this Bill? Let us say that he is serving abroad in the British Army in a fragile region, and loses his life during a tour of duty. Do his parents not deserve the protection that the Bill offers because he happens to be 25 and not a dependant? I do not think that the intention of the Bill is really to exclude such parents, and that is why I have tabled these amendments.

I remind the House that this Bill was introduced in the first place because of the particularly unnatural order of circumstances in which someone buries their own child. I do not presume to judge whether one kind of grief is worse than another, but we can all agree that it goes against nature for someone to bury their own child. It does not necessarily go against nature to have to bury one’s husband or one’s wife. That, sadly, is in the normal scheme of things that we ultimately all have to face, but nobody—nobody—expects to bury their own child. A child is a parent’s investment—their stake in the future.

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[Antoinette Sandbach]

I remember speaking at an event on child loss at which a solicitor who had acted in many, many cases where negligence had been involved told me that it was exceptionally rare for the parent to go back to the workplace because of the trauma. That would be less likely, as the hon. Lady says, if the parent had the ability to take some time out to deal with the grief. There is also action on the national bereavement care pathway that is at a pilot stage at the moment. These two things combined are likely to give parents a level of support that simply has not been there so far.

[Patricia Gibson]

The hon. Lady’s point is very well made, and I could not agree more. The initial input at the early stages through the level of support that can be offered in the workplace under the law is so important if we are going to help people to recover in any form from the trauma. It is better than having them parked out of the workplace, economically inactive and floundering alone in their grief with no support, as has been the case up until now. We lose too many marriages, and too many potential contributors to the workforce and society, because people do not get the support that they need.

The amendments I have tabled are extremely important. I will not press them to a vote, because a private Member’s Bill is such a fragile thing, and nobody wants to do anything that will take the entire matter off the table, but I urge the Minister to give those matters serious consideration and really reflect on including them in the Bill.

[Michael Tomlinson]

What a pleasure it is to follow the hon. Member for North Ayrshire and Arran (Patricia Gibson). She spoke with clarity and passion and from experience, and it is clear from other interventions that she has made a real difference to the Bill. I thank her for her words and for her work.

I pay tribute to my hon. Friend the Member for Thirsk and Malton (Kevin Hollinrake) for his work in guiding the Bill through the House, as well as my hon. Friends the Members for Eddisbury (Antoinette Sandbach) and for Colchester (Will Quince). I have piloted a presentation Bill through the House, and I got it all the way to Third Reading before it fell at the last hurdle, so I completely appreciate the fragile china that is a private Member’s Bill. I well remember my hon. Friend the Member for Eddisbury speaking in the very first Adjournment debate that I attended as a new Member of Parliament, and what a powerful experience it was to sit close to her. I think that I appeared in a number of leaflets distributed by my hon. Friend the Member for Colchester, because I was sitting just behind him when he was making one of his powerful speeches. That had a double benefit: me hearing his wise words and the people of Colchester seeing my face in his leaflet.

I will come back to amendments 24 and 25 in due course, because the hon. Member for North Ayrshire and Arran struck a raw nerve, and her words were very prescient. My hon. Friend the Member for Torbay (Kevin Foster) has spoken in great detail to all his amendments, which I have signed, so I do not feel the need to bang on at length, but I want to address two or three areas.

First, amendments 1 and 2 relate to primary care givers and grandparents. While those amendments may not be necessary because of how the Bill is drafted—it is clear that the Secretary of State will lay regulations and that there will be a definition of a bereaved parent—it is important that we debate in this place at some length what we expect that definition to include. At a time when we need more foster carers and adoptive parents, it is right that we use the term “primary care giver”, rather than just “parent”.

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[Patricia Gibson]

I will test your patience for a moment, Madam Deputy Speaker, by repeating some of the earlier remarks that I made in thanking the hon. Members for Thirsk and Malton (Kevin Hollinrake), for Eddisbury (Antoinette Sandbach) and for Colchester (Will Quince). We have seen, over a number of months, real examples of constructive cross-party working. When that happens in this House—it does not happen very often—it can be quite a beautiful thing, so we should treasure it when it does happen.

The Bill is not perfect, but its passing today is hugely welcome and enormously significant. In passing this Bill, Parliament will do something good, which will help parents in their darkest hours. Today, Parliament has recognised that a parent burying their child is such a life-changing and such a traumatic event that it should be recognised in law. How it is dealt with in the workplace can no longer be left entirely at the discretion of employers—however well-meaning many, many employers may be. As the Minister said, if something is important and it matters, it is right that the law should recognise that fact.

The consensus across this House today is a testament to how important this Bill’s provisions are. We can easily imagine that they command the same consensus right across the United Kingdom. It is no secret that I would have liked more flexibility on when leave can be taken, and I would have liked the age restriction removed, but we have made a start. As the Minister said, it is hoped that the consultation will bring in many of the improvements that Members across the Chamber have talked about today. There is more to do, but this Bill sets a tone and a cultural shift.

I wish to extend my thanks to the hon. Member for Mid Dorset and North Poole (Michael Tomlinson) for sharing his own very personal story with us. I was particularly impressed by his eminently sensible suggestion that the comments, speeches and remarks that have been made today should definitely form part of the consultation, which we all hope will allow further improvements to be made to the Bill.

The Bill, as we have heard, sets out only minimum provisions, and we know that there is more work to do. Again, I pay tribute to the work that has been done so far, which will make such a difference to the lives of parents who find themselves bereaved. We have made a start, and I believe that we can and that we will go further in the future. I very much support the Bill.