Parental Bereavement (Leave and Pay) Bill
(Limited Text - Ministerial Extracts only)
Read Full debateFriday 20th October 2017
(6 years, 6 months ago)
Commons ChamberParental Bereavement (Leave and Pay) Act 2018 Read Hansard Text
This text is a record of ministerial contributions to a debate held as part of the Parental Bereavement (Leave and Pay) Act 2018 passage through Parliament.
In 1993, the House of Lords Pepper vs. Hart decision provided that statements made by Government Ministers may be taken as illustrative of legislative intent as to the interpretation of law.
This extract highlights statements made by Government Ministers along with contextual remarks by other members. The full debate can be read here
This information is provided by Parallel Parliament and does not comprise part of the offical record
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy (Margot James)
It is a privilege to follow the hon. Member for Birmingham, Erdington (Jack Dromey), who spoke so eloquently in sharing his family’s own story. That shows what a timeless and terrible problem we are discussing. I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Thirsk and Malton (Kevin Hollinrake) on securing a high place in the private Member’s Bill ballot and thank him for choosing to introduce such an important Bill.
At the recent Westminster Hall debate on bereavement leave after the loss of a child, which was led by my hon. Friend the Member for East Renfrewshire (Paul Masterton), I was pleased to see that we have cross-party consensus on this issue, as has been borne out this afternoon. I am pleased that Members have shown a great deal of willingness to work across party lines to achieve a positive outcome today, and I have high hopes that that will continue as we discuss the Bill’s detail in its subsequent stages.
As many as one in 10 of the workforce are bereaved in any year. Although the Bill addresses only those who lose a child who is below the age of 18, that is an important place for us to focus our efforts. I completely understand that it is deeply distressing for a parent to lose a child at any age, and we will continue to work with ACAS and Cruse to identify the best way to encourage employers to act sympathetically to requests for leave following the loss of an older child who has reached adulthood.
The loss is particularly harrowing, though, when a child has barely had a chance to start their life. All the hopes, anxieties and dreams invested in that baby, toddler, young child or teenager: gone in such a desperately final way. I extend my heartfelt sympathy to all parents who have suffered and, of course, continue to suffer from such a terrible loss. Like other Members, I commend those who have spoken in the House about their own loss of a child. Their bravery in so doing has raised awareness of this issue and enabled my hon. Friend the Member for Thirsk and Malton to introduce this Bill.
My hon. Friend the Member for Colchester (Will Quince) made such a passionate speech. The ten-minute rule Bill that he so bravely introduced in the previous Parliament led to the inclusion of a commitment in our manifesto to ensure that all families who lose a baby are given the support that they need, including through a new entitlement to child bereavement leave. There is currently a clear imbalance between the experience of those who work for a good employer and are given the time and space needed to deal with the loss of a child, and the experience of those who, as we have heard in many examples, are not afforded such consideration. The House also heard in the Baby Loss Awareness Week debate last week, to which I also responded, of horrendous experiences and some employers’ cold and callous treatment of their employees following the death of a child. The Bill will go some way towards addressing this issue, which is why the Government support it.
I shall try to address some of the specific points that were made in the debate. The hon. Member for Lincoln (Ms Lee) asked about those on zero-hours contracts and those whose status is that of a worker rather than an employee. I very much sympathise with the point she made. It is helpful that the Bill mirrors existing employment provisions, thereby minimising any additional complexity for employers and parents. Nevertheless, I accept that the hours of some workers—in fact, many—are really under the control of their employer in many ways, even if the hours are flexible and the workers can take time off. Of course, they do not have an entitlement to pay during that period. We heard from the hon. Member for Washington and Sunderland West (Mrs Hodgson) about her personal experience of having to take off the time that she desperately needed without pay. I assure the House that, in line with the recommendations made by Matthew Taylor, we will consider this and other matters raised in the debate when we respond to the Taylor review before the end of the year.
The hon. Member for Lincoln and the shadow Minister mentioned people on benefits and universal credit claimants, who are actually not sanctioned for taking time off work after a bereavement. I am pleased to say that there is already flexibility in the conditionality to safeguard claimants in that position. If a claimant’s child has died, the work search and availability requirements are not applied for up to six months from the date of the death.
My hon. Friend the Member for Croydon South (Chris Philp) spoke about babies who are born prematurely. He mentioned Catriona Ogilvy, who I had the privilege of meeting with my hon. Friend’s constituency neighbour, the hon. Member for Croydon North (Mr Reed), as a result of the latter’s ten-minute rule Bill in the last Parliament. As a result of that meeting and his Bill, we have worked with ACAS on new and detailed guidance for employers to use when employees have a premature baby. The guidance was published last month, and I trust that my hon. Friend the Member for Croydon South will join efforts in raising awareness of it.
A wider culture change is needed in the way in which some businesses deal with staff who have suffered a bereavement. Of course, we are only here this afternoon because that is very much the case. There are some other issues that the Bill will not address, but things are happening so I want to mention a few of those points.
Antoinette Sandbach
One of the key aspects of the Bill is that a mother or, indeed, a father who was on maternity or paternity leave when they were bereaved is entitled to carry on having that right. That is being enshrined in the legislation. What steps will be taken to ensure that employers are aware of this impending legislation so that they can adequately prepare or, at least, try to amend their policies even before the legislation comes into effect?
Margot James
We will inform employers through the various advisory services, via gov.uk and via other means. We will also work with ACAS to ensure that the maximum number of employers are made aware of the legislation. The efforts of all in this House to amplify the message would be extremely welcome.
More needs to happen in various areas in the handling of bereavement as a whole. We would like more employers to familiarise themselves with the ACAS guidance, “Managing bereavement in the workplace—a good practice guide”, which was developed in conjunction with the charity, Cruse Bereavement Care. This has been created specifically to support employers in managing staff who have suffered a bereavement.
The fact is that, as well as needing to take time off work, employees may also find that their performance is affected when they return, or they may be temporarily unable to perform their role. I think that that is highly likely, and other hon. Members have already stated that it is impossible in some cases of bereavement—particularly when the loss is of a child—for someone to concentrate as they would normally. I am the first to accept that this experience could exceed the two-week period that we are here to discuss. We are bringing a new entitlement into law, but I do not wish to discourage employers from understanding that all cases are different and that, of course, some people will need greater periods of flexibility in how they approach their work following a bereavement.
The guidance sets out the benefits of effective engagement at such a time and the positive effect that it can have on the employee and the business in the long run. The employee feels supported, less pressured and therefore better able to deal with the issue they face, and that helps them with the overall process of grieving.
Alongside that, employees need to understand better what other support may be available to them should they suffer the terrible loss of a child. Concerns have been raised in the House in recent months that the cost of child funerals can be an additional concern. As such, where people meet eligibility conditions, a contribution towards the cost of a simple, respectful funeral may be available through the social fund funeral expenses payment scheme. In addition, it is open to local authorities to waive burial and cremation fees for children, as some already do.
Parents who lose a child at the point of birth also need quality care and support. They are the unit that somehow has to carry on functioning after such a devastating outcome. I am a former employer myself, and although it is many years since I was responsible for a lot of people in the workplace, I am pleased to say that I had a management team who tried their best to empathise with parents who had stillborn children or who lost their child, as the mother of the hon. Member for Birmingham, Erdington did all those years ago, at just a few days old—indeed, the majority of parents who suffer the loss of a child under the age of 18 do so in the first six months of their child’s life.
Losing a child is a truly terrible time, and I am pleased that my hon. Friend the Member for Thirsk and Malton is introducing a Bill to dramatically improve the situation for anyone unfortunate enough to be in the employ of a firm totally lacking in empathy. Such parents do need the protection we are here to debate this afternoon, but we know, as I said earlier—this was certainly true in my firm, and it is true in the vast majority of firms I am aware of—that having a period of time to cover the immediate bereavement and the tragic, heart-rending funeral service is the basics, and one has to continue to empathise with the individual after they return to work. As one of my hon. Friends pointed out during the debate, people obviously do not come back to work able to switch back on again. They will need time off for certain things. The registration of the death and all that sort of thing carries on. From my personal experience of bereavement—fortunately, it did not involve the death of a child, but being responsible for estates—I know that these things just take time. People want to take time over them; they do not want to feel in a rush and up against a deadline.
Of course I understand the needs of employers, and my company was fortunate enough to have people who could cover for absence and that sort of thing. It is different for a very small employer, and I do sympathise—it can be very difficult. It is also difficult for the self-employed. We have not heard much mention of the self-employed, who are not covered by this legislation, on the basis that they can take time off because they are their own boss. On the other hand, if they are providing services, there are other pressures on them. They have the difficulty of having to deal with customers and so forth without the back-up of a team underneath them who can take up the reins. When we come to consider issues regarding the self-employed in our response to the Taylor review, I trust that we will be able to cover some of these aspects for people who are currently not of employed status.
Mrs Hodgson
The Minister made a very good point about the time needed for people to go on the bereavement journey. Will someone who feels able to come back to work sooner but then finds that the grief hits later on—as it does; it hits different people at different stages—be able to take some of the two weeks’ paid leave later, perhaps within a six-month period? Will the Bill accommodate that?
Margot James
That is definitely the sort of thing that can be raised in Committee. At the moment, the period is two weeks. The hon. Member for Lincoln asked whether it could be divided into days here and there. That is currently not possible within the various types of family leave and carer leave that exist on the statute book. The leave is divided into weeks, but it can be taken over a period of time. I am sure that when hon. Members get to discuss the Bill in Committee, the fixed period of time might be a subject of debate.
Thanks in large part to the work of the all-party group, the Government have recognised that the NHS needs to improve its own environments. That has led to better bereavement rooms and quiet spaces, now at nearly 40 hospitals. The Department of Health has funded Sands to deliver a national bereavement care pathway to reduce the variation in the quality of bereavement care provided by the NHS. Only last week, 11 pilot sites were announced in hospital trusts that are going to implement the new pathway.
From time to time, I receive letters from parents who have suffered the loss of a baby in my local hospital. I know that efforts have been made to improve the services for those parents. If the parents have lost their baby very, very shortly after childbirth, I can think of no worse place to be than the average maternity suite. My heart goes out to those parents. I am glad that the work of the all-party group is leading to improvements in the care in our local hospital trusts.
Again, I thank my hon. Friend the Member for Thirsk and Malton for choosing this subject from among so many interests competing for our time. I very much welcome the consensus among hon. Members across the House and thank them all for their hugely valuable and sensitive contributions.
Parental Bereavement (Leave and Pay) Bill (Money)
(Limited Text - Ministerial Extracts only)
Read Full debateMonday 13th November 2017
(6 years, 5 months ago)
Commons ChamberParental Bereavement (Leave and Pay) Act 2018 Read Hansard Text
This text is a record of ministerial contributions to a debate held as part of the Parental Bereavement (Leave and Pay) Act 2018 passage through Parliament.
In 1993, the House of Lords Pepper vs. Hart decision provided that statements made by Government Ministers may be taken as illustrative of legislative intent as to the interpretation of law.
This extract highlights statements made by Government Ministers along with contextual remarks by other members. The full debate can be read here
This information is provided by Parallel Parliament and does not comprise part of the offical record
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy (Margot James)
I beg to move,
That, for the purposes of any Act resulting from the Parental Bereavement (Leave and Pay) Bill, it is expedient to authorise:
(1) the payment out of money provided by Parliament of any expenditure incurred under or by virtue of the Act by the Treasury; and
(2) the payment of sums into the Consolidated Fund.
I pay tribute to my hon. Friend the Member for Thirsk and Malton (Kevin Hollinrake) for his work in getting the Bill to this point, and the effort he has put in to engage with stakeholders and Members to ensure it has cross-party support. I would like to take this opportunity to restate the Government’s commitment to the Bill and their desire to see it succeed. The importance of the Bill is clear from the support for it across the House. We should therefore ensure that its financial element is clearly set out for the House to consider.
Parental Bereavement (Leave and Pay) Bill
(Limited Text - Ministerial Extracts only)
Read Full debateFriday 11th May 2018
(5 years, 11 months ago)
Commons ChamberParental Bereavement (Leave and Pay) Act 2018 Read Hansard Text Amendment Paper: Consideration of Bill Amendments as at 11 May 2018 - (11 May 2018)
This text is a record of ministerial contributions to a debate held as part of the Parental Bereavement (Leave and Pay) Act 2018 passage through Parliament.
In 1993, the House of Lords Pepper vs. Hart decision provided that statements made by Government Ministers may be taken as illustrative of legislative intent as to the interpretation of law.
This extract highlights statements made by Government Ministers along with contextual remarks by other members. The full debate can be read here
This information is provided by Parallel Parliament and does not comprise part of the offical record
Edward Argar
It is a pleasure to speak at this stage of the Bill’s progress. I very much enjoyed my time on the Bill Committee, and pay tribute to all my colleagues who served on that Committee. Indeed, it was also a pleasure and a privilege to speak on Second Reading of this Bill.
As many hon. and right hon. Members have said during the passage of this Bill, we are, to a degree, righting a wrong. Although many businesses do the right thing, as we would wish them to do, in looking after and supporting bereaved parents in the dreadful circumstances of having lost a child, there are some, as we have also heard, who have not done that. What this Bill does is not only to send a very clear message to all businesses but to provide a basic level of protection.
I pay tribute to my hon. Friend the Member for Thirsk and Malton (Kevin Hollinrake). I think that this is his second private Member’s Bill and, like his previous one, it stands a very good chance of success. He is always someone to have in one’s corner when taking a cause through the private Member’s Bill process. I also pay tribute to my hon. Friends the Members for Eddisbury (Antoinette Sandbach), for Colchester (Will Quince), and, although she is not in her place today, my hon. Friend the Member for Banbury (Victoria Prentis) and, of course, the hon. Member for North Ayrshire and Arran (Patricia Gibson), all of whom have spoken extremely movingly, at different points, about their experiences and why this piece of legislation is so hugely important.
Let me turn to the specific amendments before us today. I can understand why each of them is hugely important, but we must also be careful that we do not try to make the perfect the enemy of the good. The key must be to get this legislation through the House. Amendments 22 and 23, tabled by the hon. Member for North Ayrshire and Arran, are essentially about flexibility, which was also highlighted in the amendments tabled by my hon. Friend the Member for Torbay (Kevin Foster). She makes an extremely valid point. If I recall, there are organisations, such as Together for Short Lives and Cruse Bereavement Care, which have all made the same point about the need for flexibility. Individuals and families cope and grieve in different ways, at different paces and at different times. Some will want to go straight back to work, while others will want time to grieve quietly. Equally, as we have touched on in previous comments, if there is an inquest or if the death has been sudden and unexpected that may well also increase the need for flexibility, because no one will know when they may need that time off.
Although I entirely take on board what the hon. Member for North Ayrshire and Arran said—I will be interested to hear whether the Minister will allude to this—it may be that the most effective way of addressing the points on flexibility is to feed them into the consultation, which is due later this year, and to use that as a mechanism to address them, rather than necessarily putting them in the Bill. I am entirely sympathetic to the points that she makes. I would be grateful if the Minister could say what he thinks is the best method by which to achieve that outcome.
We then turn to amendments 24 and 25, which were mentioned by my hon. Friend the Member for South Suffolk (James Cartlidge), about where the cut-off point should be. He was absolutely right in what he said. The hon. Lady made an extremely powerful moral case for her amendments. My hon. Friends the Members for Thirsk and Malton and for Croydon South (Chris Philp) were clear that the reasonableness test would address the issue, but, again, I would welcome clarity from the Minister on his interpretation of that.
Finally, let me address amendments 1, 2, 12, 14 and others on the definition of what a parent is in the context of this Bill. I argue that that is one of the hardest parts of getting this Bill right—how do we define the scope of what is a parent. There will be biological parents, and there will be the partners of someone who is not the biological parent, but still feels the bereavement as acutely. I believe that, in Committee, my hon. Friend the Member for Thirsk and Malton mentioned the case of Mandy Ruston who talked on Facebook about the fact that, while she was able to get support from her employer, her partner, a non-biological parent, was told by his employers to return to work.
It is extremely difficult, particularly in the modern age, for us to define who is a parent. Perhaps, rather than looking at a legalistic or biological definition, we should look at it in terms of caring responsibilities. The challenge is to try to find a legal definition for the purposes of legislation. This Bill goes a very long way towards doing exactly that. It is not perfect, but I have yet to see, in my short time in this place, any legislation that I believe is entirely perfect as it passes through this House, or indeed as it emerges at the other end. There are always things that can be tweaked to reflect the changing nature of society or changing circumstances as the world moves on.
Throughout the passage of this Bill, we have heard a number of extremely moving, thoughtful speeches and contributions. As Members on both sides of the House have said, all those contributions have been made in a spirit designed to allow the Bill to progress and to work together to come up with the best legislation we can. With that in mind, the key for all of us must be to get the Bill on to the statute book. Where there are issues that still need to be ironed out, we should not shy away from that and we should continue to look at them, but the key must be not to let that slow down or impede the passage of the Bill. We should get the Bill on to the statute book and then we can, as necessary, refine and tweak by regulation or through the consultation.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy (Richard Harrington)
I thank colleagues on both sides of the House for the moving speeches that they have made. As you may know, Madam Deputy Speaker, I usually try to start my addresses to this House with a quip or a humorous comment, but I am afraid that today is not an occasion for that. This is a very serious Bill. I am the third Minister to have had the honour of working on it. That is not because no one can be bothered with it, but because it is very important. Every human being, let alone every Member of Parliament, will have every sympathy with it.
Colleagues have made it clear that the Government fully support the Bill, and I reaffirm once again that it very much has our backing. Despite the public reading, quite rightly, of the system of opposition—some say that it is opposition for opposition’s sake and some say that people are being partisan—this is a very good occasion when the reality is not that.
I was in business for most of my adult life before first coming to this place, and I did not really think about this issue. When I first started to consider the Bill, I remembered an occasion when it was brought to my attention that someone had had a bereavement. I just said, not because I am particularly humanitarian or perfect but as anyone would say, “Take as much time as you need.” I think that the vast majority of employers do say that. Before there was statutory sick pay, statutory holiday pay and so on, I am sure that a lot of employers, even in the 19th century, just did what they thought was the right thing—for example, the non-conformists building houses in Bournville and elsewhere. Employers always have been, and certainly are in the present day, far more responsible than just relying on the minimum in law. However, it is our place to make laws to provide that basic minimum—not to insult those who do the right thing but to provide a safety net, or catch-all, for the employees of those who do not. Quite clearly, there are those who do not, and they should be ashamed of themselves, frankly.
Not every employer is like BT or a firm with tens of thousands of employees. My hon. Friend the Member for South Suffolk (James Cartlidge) mentioned that he had a business with only two or three employees. That makes things much more difficult and employers have to be much more flexible. Big firms can make proper arrangements, and often do indeed have them. I have come across many cases of companies that have very responsible policies on this kind of thing, far and above what the law would provide, because that is the right thing for their employees.
Richard Harrington
The shadow Minister makes a good sedentary comment, but I detect a note of sarcasm.
The serious point here is that consultations in which charitable bodies and other institutions make points based on their experiences are an important part of the legislative process, because that is where the detail comes in. I can assure Members on both sides of the House that this is not a can-kicking consultation or a formality. It is very important. Anyone who is interested can submit a response, and the consultation is open until 8 June, so there is not long to wait. I feel that it is necessary. Sometimes consultations are formalities, but I do not think this is one of them.
Kevin Foster
I am reassured by some of what I am hearing from the Minister, but can he be clear that the Government will look at the results of that consultation with a view to being clear on primary care givers, rather than parents who are purely defined by biology?
Richard Harrington
My hon. Friend makes a good point, as is typical. He asked me whether I can be clear, and I can be clear that that is the case.
The definition of a bereaved parent will be the same in respect of both leave and pay for the Bill. We must not forget that this involves the two minimum rights, as I call them, of the leave that can be taken and the pay that goes with it. Those are the minimum rights, and I think many companies now fully exceed that. We have been clear all along that we want to introduce a system that prescribes clearly, based on the facts, who is eligible, for the benefit of employees and employers.
In some areas of employment law, legislation has been the right course of action. Legislation has set the principle, which employment tribunals interpret for particular cases, fleshing out how it should be applied. In this case, however, we do not want claims to reach an employment tribunal to establish whether an individual counts as a bereaved parent for these purposes, and it would not be right to expect people dealing with that tragic loss to muster the energy and time to follow that course of action. That issue came up on Second Reading and in Committee, and each time it became clear that the question who should count as a bereaved parent, which on the surface seems very simple, is not easy to answer.
The consultation seeks to get that right, so that when the regulations are published—this is not a case of regulations being published so that Ministers and not Parliament take control—they are correct. The regulations must be simple, but they must also be comprehensive and include all circumstances. That is a difficult balance to get right, but we are doing our best. I agree with the spirit of the amendment, but it is not appropriate to accept any measure that will effectively pre-empt the outcome of that consultation. We must allow the process to run its course.
David Linden
Can the Minister say when the Government will respond to that consultation? Have they set a timescale for that? We cannot just go on waiting for a consultation response—I would not be so bold as to say that that has happened before—so can he say when the Government will report back?
Richard Harrington
I fully accept the hon. Gentleman’s point, and we cannot allow this to go on and on. I think that it was Mrs Thatcher who said she was going to “go on and on”, but this is not one of those cases—well, it was not in her case either, as the hon. Gentleman will know. In all seriousness, I cannot give a direct answer, not because I do not want to, but because we must see how much information there is and process it. If I say “weeks”, perhaps he will hold me to that. I know that “weeks” could mean 5,000 weeks, but that is not what I intend. I hope that will give him a rough idea, but we cannot just hold the consultation one day, have a knee-jerk response and finish it, as I hope that he understands. There is no intention to stall. I have seen the spirit of the House today, and I hope that no one will think that this is a governmental stalling mechanism—far from it.
Amendments 3, 5, 20 and 23 consider the window within which leave and pay can be taken, and amendment 22 concerns the flexibility with which leave is taken. Given that this measure will join a fleet of others related to family-related leave and pay, we must maintain consistency. That is the genesis of the eight-week window and the ability to extend that through secondary legislation. We cannot have a situation in which the enabling framework is inconsistent with frameworks for other family leave provisions, thereby adding complexity and potential confusion.
Today, we have heard the view that the current eight-week window might not be enough. I have heard that message. That is one key element explicitly considered in the current consultation, and it is legitimate to ask people other than politicians for their views on this issue. The decision that leave could be taken at a later stage, while retaining a minimum timeframe of eight weeks in the Bill, is not unreasonable. We cannot accept any of the proposed amendments without waiting for the outcome of the consultation and then making a decision in view of the responses. Hon. Members and their constituents must engage in the consultation process, because we need the evidence base on which the Government can take responsible decisions. We need as broad a base of representative evidence as possible.
Kevin Foster
May I clarify for my benefit and that of other Members that the idea is for eight weeks to be the minimum timeframe and that the leave can be broken? This is not about a solid two-week period.
Richard Harrington
That is exactly what the Government are trying to find out. It may be that that is not appropriate, but my instincts are that what my hon. Friend says is right. Bills like this are strange. The natural thing would be to have as much flexibility as possible for almost anything, because these circumstances are different—of course they are. Each is a terrible tragedy, and we have heard speeches from hon. Members across the House about their own experiences, and those of their families and constituents. Everyone is different. We do not want to have to force everything into a narrow hole.
Employers have to know where they stand, however, otherwise we are just asking them to be nice people and to behave humanely. We do say that, of course, but it is not enough. We have to provide a framework and a balance must be struck. I think that we all agree that we need to provide employers with a simple set of rules, not an over-complex set of rules. The odd time—thankfully, it is just the odd time—that such a terrible bereavement happens, we do not want employers to be rushing around looking for papers, laws and guidelines. If an employer has only three or four employees, that is very difficult to do. I am sure their answer would be, “Take whatever you need,” but we have to provide the rules. I am absolutely clear that the amount of leave and pay is a minimum entitlement, so that all families who lose a child are given the bereavement support they need. I believe it is the absolute minimum.
The Bill was never about making sure that each parent who finds themselves in this situation has all the time off they need, because grief is different for each person. Grief is never time-limited and I am sure any reasonable employer would not or could not give people enough time off to deal with their entire grief—grief will happen over the rest of their lives. The intention is to set a minimum entitlement that employers must provide and to encourage a culture of support to develop around child bereavement. I am sure many employers would take into consideration the mental health needs of parents after bereavement, or extra time to deal with other children affected. This is the minimum; it is not everything. I hope that employers do not think, “Well, that’s all we have to do. That’s enough.” It never is. I am sure all responsible employers know that.
We have to consider employers’ rights. They have to have a clear framework. They need to know, in a way that is easily understandable, the minimum the law entitles them to. This may be obvious, but most employers will never come across this situation. When it does happen to an employee in a smaller company, employers will not have experienced the situation before. They will not have a file in a human resources department to tell them what their rights are. We found a consensus among employer groups for the minimum leave period of two weeks. It is sensible to continue with that, as long as it is known that it is the minimum entitlement in the Bill. Bigger, more organised employers will develop their own enhanced bereavement policies, as big firms often have very clear policies for almost every possible contingency.
On removing the age limit for a child, I cannot imagine how difficult it is to lose a loved one. The point was made, I think by my hon. Friend the Member for Chippenham (Michelle Donelan), that a child is a child. My mother is 89, but I am still her child. That may be obvious, but when we think of children for the purposes of the Bill one can assume that we mean little children. As my hon. Friend said so eloquently, to lose any child is not what nature intended but unfortunately it does happen. I can well understand why amendments seeking to remove the age limit for a child have been tabled. Having a sick child is understood easily by people. The way things are changing mental health, thankfully, is spoken about more now. However, people do not come across child bereavement very often, so it can be more difficult to speak about. The numbers, however, are not insignificant.
We have tried to get the balance right between those affected and those who need to administer this provision. It provides the minimum level of entitlement, but it does not prevent employers from enhancing their policies. I do not like the idea of having to consider costs in these circumstances, but they are unavoidable. There is a cost to employers and to Government, and the broader the scope, the higher the cost, so it is important to focus on the fact that this is a framework and a floor, providing a minimum. However, in so many areas of life employers go far beyond what the law sets the minimum for. Holiday pay and sick pay are good examples, and I am absolutely certain that the bereavement pay should be too.
Michael Tomlinson
The Minister is absolutely right: this is a statutory minimum. So many employers do so much better and I am sure that we all hope that they will continue to do so, but there has been this figure of a fivefold increase. It seems odd to be talking about money and financial costs in these circumstances. Can he explain, perhaps in more detail, the evidence that we have heard about a fivefold increase? Is it right that widening the scope and extending the age limit of 18 would increase it fivefold? If that is right, can he explain how?
Richard Harrington
I would like to consider my hon. Friend’s point. Perhaps I can drop him a line next week, or perhaps we can meet up and have a chat about it, because I do not want not to give a knee-jerk answer to a very complex question.
Kevin Foster
May I suggest that a letter with the information could be placed in the Library, given that we have discussed the issue on the Floor of the House?
Richard Harrington
Yes, I thank my hon. Friend very much for that suggestion. I would be very happy to do that and to correspond directly with my hon. Friend the Member for Mid Dorset and North Poole (Michael Tomlinson). We have to focus on the fact that this is a floor, as I think I have made clear. This is really about changing the culture around bereavement in general. It is my heartfelt belief that this Bill is not the be-all and end-all but that it will be a powerful driver of that culture change.
Alan Mak (Havant) (Con)
My hon. Friend mentioned the desire for a culture change among businesses. Will he continue to engage with the many business representative organisations to make sure that that message from this House is clear and spreads out across the whole country?
Richard Harrington
Yes. As ever, the good citizens of Havant are very well served. I make the point clearly that I meet business representative organisations, such as the Confederation of British Industry, the EEF, the Federation of Small Businesses and chambers of commerce, on a weekly basis. They are very responsible and I shall be bringing it up with them. This is a culture change, but culture changes do not happen instantaneously.
On remuneration, I really believe that the Bill again provides the minimum standard for employers. Hon. Members on both sides of the House have spoken about the level, but this is a minimum level, and bereaved parents have to know what the minimum is and what the entitlement is. However, it is not something that they should be negotiating with their employers. I am sure again that employers will be clear, and most will have a policy that is greatly in excess of that.
While I am on the subject, I turn to a point made by my hon. Friend the Member for Torbay. When we were discussing the amendment that deals with remuneration, I was asked about the civil service and whether the Government will provide leadership. I am pleased to announce today that we have decided that civil servants should receive full occupational pay for the one or two weeks that they take off under the Bill’s provisions. [Hon. Members: “Hear, hear!”] Many civil servants already take special leave when they find themselves in tragic circumstances, and we obviously want that level of support to continue when the Bill is implemented. I do not think that that makes the civil service particularly special. It should be standard, but I think we should lead by example. I have seen—not to do with child bereavement, but with sickness and other things—that the civil service is very flexible, and we as Government are very responsible employers in that way.
Will Quince
I thank the Minister for that very welcome announcement. It sends a very clear message to employers up and down the country that this is the gold standard and very much what we expect them to aspire to.
Richard Harrington
My hon. Friend is right: we must lead by example. Offering full pay to our own employees who lose a child means that we are a good employer, but it also provides a best-practice model for other employers to follow.
In relation to amendment 7, my hon. Friend raised an important point about consistency with other family-related leave entitlements. The Bill as drafted makes clear which contractual elements are applicable to parental bereavement leave or pay.
Let me now turn to amendment 8. I will begin with words that you have heard already, Madam Deputy Speaker: I agree with the comments made by many Members. It has been made clear that there is no desire to deviate from frameworks supporting existing measures in the landscape of family-related leave and pay, but that must not be at the expense of fairness and proportionality. Someone may be on family-related leave for many different reasons, and the forms of leave involved are a variety of lengths. They can be taken back to back. Sometimes it is natural for that to be the case, but sometimes it is not.
If the amendment were accepted, it might be possible for a bereaved parent who had been on leave for an extended period—perhaps consisting partly of maternity leave and partly of parental bereavement leave—to be entitled to return to the job that they had before going on leave, whereas a colleague who had been on other forms of family-related leave for the same period of time would not have quite the same right to return. We would not want a fixed “right to return” that was out of kilter with the other, existing “rights to return”.
The Government need the flexibility to set all this out through regulation after they have had time to consider all the various forms of leave and how they could interact with each other. I know that that sounds pedantic. Earlier this week, the hon. Member for Barrow and Furness (John Woodcock) accused me of being a nit-picker—there should probably be a Royal Society of Nit-pickers—but in this instance we have to nit-pick, because the detail is critically important. We should set out the rules only after we have considered the issue. That is, after all, the approach taken in the existing legislation on family-related leave and pay rights.
My hon. Friend the Member for Croydon South (Chris Philp) suggested the extension of leave to parents of premature babies. As I have said, all family leave provisions represent a floor. Employers are encouraged to go beyond the minimum when they can. Last year the Government worked with ACAS to produce new guidance on support for staff who have premature babies. The UK offers generous maternity-leave entitlements —some of the best in the world—and I think that they provide for a variety of circumstances. Parents also have access to other types of leave, such as shared parental and annual leave.
Chris Philp
I appreciate the Minister’s response to my earlier comments. I would point out, however, that the parents of very premature babies have additional caring responsibilities—particularly when the babies are in a neonatal intensive care unit—over and above the ordinary parental requirements involving a normal newborn baby. I therefore ask the Government to consider, at some future time, an additional leave right, over and above the normal one, for parents in those circumstances, when it is necessary for them to be present with the baby as much as possible.
Richard Harrington
I know that my hon. Friend has personal experience in that regard, as his twins were born prematurely. I was born quite prematurely myself. Some of us look as though we were not born prematurely. My hon. Friend has made a serious point, however, and I will definitely consider it.
Amendments 9 to 11 and 15 to 17 deal with notice requirements. In this context, we have to stop and think about what the word “reasonable” means. It looks sensible in drafting and in amendments, because people think, “Well, what’s reasonable is reasonable”, but it is very subjective. It is a word that remains open to interpretation and genuinely means different things to different people. If I was challenged on the grounds of reasonableness—for example, on the length of this speech—what would the outcome be? It is a serious point with a number of scenarios and thought processes, with the usual outcome that something can be considered reasonable or unreasonable for any number of reasons when viewed from multiple perspectives.
The amendment might inadvertently make it difficult for those who seek to rely on the provision to know exactly what it means for them. We cannot create a situation in which the issue of reasonableness ends up being a sticking point between employer and employee. Then we would have questions of whether it should go to an employment tribunal or how would it be arbitrated, when that would be the last thing that anyone wanted on top of dealing with the terrible tragedy of a child’s death. It would be the worst of all outcomes and I am sure that no Member would want to see it.
I understand the aim of the amendment, however, and I sympathise with its spirit. But given that we are dealing with such a delicate issue, in which clarity is key, we should keep the text of the schedule as it is.
Kevin Foster
I take on board some of the points that the Minister is making, but does he accept that “reasonable” is a word that has been in the law for a long time in various circumstances? For example, Lord Denning famously talked, in the language of his time, of the man on the top of the Clapham omnibus. One of the reasons we picked the word is because it has been decided on in the courts many times.
Richard Harrington
I thank my hon. Friend for that point and in my brief time not as a lawyer but doing a law degree I remember the Lord Denning case, which was about being subjective about reasonableness. It was fine for Lord Denning, as the Master of the Rolls, to opine on the issue, but we have to consider a system that will not, we hope, go to an employment tribunal or a court—that is the last thing that anybody would want. Although “reasonableness” seems a fine test on the surface, this is such a delicate issue that we need to keep the text of the schedule as it is, with due respect to Lord Denning and my hon. Friend, although I agree with him about the “reasonable” test generally in English law and other systems.
As for the eligibility for pay, I look at this from my business background. Keeping the qualifying period for the pay element aligned with family leave provisions avoids questions arising at this sensitive time about who is entitled to take both parental bereavement leave and pay, because employers are already familiar with how it works. If employers are able to follow the legislation easily it will, in turn, enable them to act in a way that reduces the stress and uncertainty of the bereaved employee. ACAS has opined a lot on this subject and my officials have worked with it to establish how the Government can best support employers when an employee suffers child bereavement. Much of it will have to do with guidance and support to reflect the new provisions after Royal Assent and once the regulations have been made.
In supporting the Bill, the Government want to ensure that employees and employers are both involved in managing child bereavement, in the context of existing family leave and pay legislation. So I think it better that we leave the Bill as it stands in this respect—consistent with existing family-related pay entitlements when it comes to eligibility for statutory pay.
On amendment 18 and the liability of HMRC, the point has been covered a lot in the proceedings on the Bill, and I believe we need to ensure that protections are in place in the event an employer does not fulfil his legal obligation.
To allow time for Third Reading, I would just say that this is as good a time as any to reiterate the Government’s full support for the Bill, and my appearance as the third Minister to represent the Government is not a signal of wavering commitment. It is a signal that we are trying to get it right and treating the subject with the importance it deserves. I hope that after today’s important stages the Bill will make a swift transition for consideration in the other place, so it can proceed and receive Royal Assent at the earliest convenience.
Richard Harrington
I will not go through the long list of speakers, because other Members have already done so. Let me merely endorse what they have said.
Bills such as this give rise to two types of emotion: one prompted by our political views or policy ideas; and the other due to our personal experiences or those of our constituents. We have felt a great deal of the second type of emotion today. It would not be right for me to single out individual Members’ moving and emotional speeches. In my eight years in the House, I have never experienced anything quite like them—certainly not as a Minister responding to a debate.
I covered most of the points on Report, but I should mention some of the voluntary and other organisations and people who have taken part in this whole process: Rainbow Trust Children’s Charity; Together for Short Lives; and Lucy Herd of Jack’s Rainbow. I hope that they are pleased with the progress that we have made today. People campaign, they lobby their MPs and MPs campaign, but in the House today, MPs have spoken on the basis of their own personal and, I am afraid, tragic experiences. That is different from normal politics.
Being present, as the Minister responding to the Bill, from 9.30 am until 2 pm has meant more to me than just being on duty. It has been an experience that I will not forget. I am very pleased and very proud to be, in my small way, a part of this process, and to reconfirm the Government’s commitment to the Bill. I look forward to the speedy progress of consultation and secondary legislation, and I am sure that the other place will be as supportive as we have been today.
Question put and agreed to.
Bill accordingly read the Third time and passed.
Parental Bereavement (Leave and Pay) Bill
(Limited Text - Ministerial Extracts only)
Read Full debateFriday 29th June 2018
(5 years, 9 months ago)
Lords ChamberParental Bereavement (Leave and Pay) Act 2018 Read Hansard Text Amendment Paper: Consideration of Bill Amendments as at 11 May 2018 - (11 May 2018)
This text is a record of ministerial contributions to a debate held as part of the Parental Bereavement (Leave and Pay) Act 2018 passage through Parliament.
In 1993, the House of Lords Pepper vs. Hart decision provided that statements made by Government Ministers may be taken as illustrative of legislative intent as to the interpretation of law.
This extract highlights statements made by Government Ministers along with contextual remarks by other members. The full debate can be read here
This information is provided by Parallel Parliament and does not comprise part of the offical record
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy (Lord Henley) (Con)
My Lords, may I respond to that last point by picking up a point made by the noble Lord, Lord Stevenson? He described the Bill as addressing just a lacuna and said that it was not the complete answer. If only the Bill could be a complete answer—if only any government Bill or Private Member’s Bill could ever be a complete answer to whatever issue it addressed, that would be a great thing. This, however, is a small step to respond to the campaign mentioned by the noble Baroness, Lady Brinton, and the noble Lord, Lord Knight of Weymouth, which has been running for some time, led by Lucy Herd and other campaigners and taken up by colleagues of the noble Lord, Lord Knight, in the Commons. After the election it was taken up by my honourable friend Kevin Hollinrake as a Private Member’s Bill and now, having proceeded through the Commons, it has been taken up by the noble Lord, Lord Knight of Weymouth, to whom I am very grateful. For once, there is government support and I hope we can proceed to the statute book in due course to meet the manifesto commitment that we made on the Bill. I do not think it is necessary for me to repeat that.
Obviously, it is right that I and possibly other Ministers—I cannot give any guarantee on that but I offer myself—should offer ourselves up between now and Committee for meetings with the noble Lord and the noble Baroness, Lady Brinton, if she is happy to come along, so that we can discuss it. I think that would be useful. The noble Lord, Lord Stevenson, might want to come as well. We want to make sure that we pass the Bill, which deals with what the noble Baroness described as, thankfully, a rarity. We have to go back only 150 years to remember a time when more than half of all funerals were those of small children. We are beyond that, dealing with a rarity, and we want to make sure that we get this right and get something on the statute book that will be useful.
There is always an element of fragility in the parliamentary process for any Private Member’s Bill. So far we have got through another place and I hope that, given the consensus we have, we will be able to get it right here and address the lacuna in existing pay and leave rights that the noble Lord, Lord Stevenson, addressed. We are dealing with something—the death of a child—that should not be treated in the same way as we manage to treat the birth of a child; instinctively, that does not seem right to me. Obviously, the loss of anyone can be very difficult to deal with. Indeed, any bereavement can affect a number of the workforce but the loss of a child before they reach adulthood can be a far greater tragedy because it is against the natural order of things.
It is right that we should all support the Bill. I do not think the noble Lords, Lord Knight and Lord Stevenson, should worry about the relative emptiness of the Benches on all sides of the House. That is the nature of a hot Friday at the end of June. But we are dealing with an important point and we will get it right, I hope, in Committee. I hope we will not need to amend the Bill but at least that will be a moment when we can respond to the consultation referred to.
May I briefly set out the Government’s position on the Bill? The noble Lord, Lord Knight, set out what the Bill does: it gives employees who have lost a child below the age of 18 the right to at least two weeks away from work as a day-one right. It is the Government’s intention that parental bereavement pay will be paid at the statutory rate referred to, which is currently £145.18 per week, or at 90% of the employee’s average weekly earnings where that is lower, subject to the 26-week qualifying period.
I make it clear again that that is the bare minimum which an employee should expect from their employer once this provision is put in place. Appropriate advice should be offered to employers so that they can act with compassion and consideration for their staff to offer a provision over and above the statutory minimum. We want this to be a catalyst for a change in the mindset and approach to bereavement. We want people to be able to speak in the workplace about their bereavement, including in the event that they suffer the bereavement of a child, and certainly not to be fearful of suffering a detriment in respect of that bereavement.
On the detail of the provisions, we noted that the lack of detail on some key aspects of the entitlement has been pressed in another place, and rightly so. I do not think this should be a cause of concern and I hope that the following reassurances will suffice on the issue. As the noble Lord mentioned and as the House will be aware, we launched a consultation in March to consider how best to deliver the detail of the provisions through regulations. That consultation has now closed and I am pleased to be able to tell the House that it received over 1,400 responses, mainly from individuals. We also received responses from key business groups and relevant charities. Those responses have been helpful in shaping the detail of the policy and making sure that the final product works for both employers and employees. That has obviously been our ambition from the start.
The Long Title of the Bill focuses on parents only. However, since the question of who counts as a parent is a complex one to answer, the consultation welcomed views on the different groups of people who have a parental relationship with the child and thus may be included. There was a strong sense among the responses to the consultation that entitlement to parental bereavement leave and pay should not rely solely upon biological parentage but should depend on the presence of a parental relationship, whether that is biological, legal or informal. I am grateful for the nods that I see from the noble Baroness, Lady Brinton, who asked for a degree of flexibility on that. The consultation also asked about flexibility on when the leave can be taken.
As drafted, the Bill provides for parents to take a minimum of two weeks’ parental bereavement leave within a period of at least 56 days. The Government sought views on the optimum length of this window in which to take the leave, as well as how the leave and pay can be taken: for example, in a single block of two weeks or in separate one-week blocks, or even more flexibly still. Responses overwhelmingly supported the extension of the window beyond 56 days to provide flexibility to bereaved parents. A majority of respondents also wanted to see flexibility in the way that leave and pay can be taken. Many favoured being able to split the leave into separate weeks. In respect of both these issues, the consultation responses have shown us that this provision must cater for the unpredictable and very personal nature of grief.
Lastly, the Government asked for views on notice and evidence requirements. We asked whether it is reasonable for there to be a requirement to give notice; if so, what form that notice might take; and whether evidence requirements for parental bereavement leave and pay should mirror those in existing provisions. The majority of responses said that the Government should seek to make these requirements as reasonable as possible and not place undue burdens on either the employee or the employer. The department is currently working on the Government’s response to the consultation and we will publish that in due course. I reassure the House that it is my hope and intention to have the response to this consultation published before Committee stage on the Bill. I think that the date we have for Committee—I am sure the noble Lord will be aware of this—is sometime before we rise for the summer. In that document, we will set out our policy in respect of the key issues raised and considered in the consultation. Expediting publication in this way will, I hope, convey our continued commitment to this Bill and our desire to see it pass into law and will assist with noble Lords’ consideration of the Bill’s delegated powers.
This House frequently adds much value and challenge through asking the right questions about the need for delegated powers and their intended use—I have certainly been asked about that on a number of occasions on a great many Bills—so I am pleased to echo the noble Lord, Lord Knight, in quoting the 29th report from the Delegated Powers and Regulatory Reform Committee. I really like this:
“There is nothing in this Bill which we would wish to draw to the attention of the House”.
That is not something I always hear on Bills with which I am involved. I hope it is ample reassurance for the House.
In support of the Bill, once the regulations are in place we will once again work with ACAS—I think that addresses some of the points the noble Baroness, Lady Brinton, made—to update its guidance to reflect this new provision because it is important to get to as many employers as possible to get the message over. It is almost as if the Bill would be unnecessary if employers acted in an appropriate manner. The guidance will be key for employers and employees in understanding the new provision and setting the tone for the approach to bereavement going forward, which I think we can all agree needs to change on certain issues. The approach now needs to reflect a more modern and understanding approach to bereavement and all the various issues which surround it. I thank the noble Lord, Lord Knight of Weymouth, and say that the Government fully support the Bill. I look forward to discussions and I hope that we can have them between now and Committee to make sure that we can have a productive and useful Committee stage that allows the Bill to go through in the manner that the noble Lord wishes.
Parental Bereavement (Leave and Pay) Bill
(Limited Text - Ministerial Extracts only)
Read Full debateTuesday 24th July 2018
(5 years, 9 months ago)
Lords ChamberParental Bereavement (Leave and Pay) Act 2018 Read Hansard Text Amendment Paper: Consideration of Bill Amendments as at 11 May 2018 - (11 May 2018)
This text is a record of ministerial contributions to a debate held as part of the Parental Bereavement (Leave and Pay) Act 2018 passage through Parliament.
In 1993, the House of Lords Pepper vs. Hart decision provided that statements made by Government Ministers may be taken as illustrative of legislative intent as to the interpretation of law.
This extract highlights statements made by Government Ministers along with contextual remarks by other members. The full debate can be read here
This information is provided by Parallel Parliament and does not comprise part of the offical record
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy (Lord Henley) (Con)
My Lords, I have it in command from Her Majesty the Queen to acquaint the House that Her Majesty, having been informed of the purport of the Parental Bereavement (Leave and Pay) Bill, has consented to place her interests, so far as they are affected by the Bill, at the disposal of Parliament for the purposes of the Bill.
Lord Henley
My Lords, I thank the noble Lord, Lord Knight, for taking through this very important piece of legislation, which provides at the very least two weeks of guaranteed time away from work for those employees who have suffered the tragedy of losing a child before that child has had the opportunity to reach adulthood.
I am grateful to the noble Lord for ensuring the rapid progress of this Bill through this House. I am conscious that, in doing so, the Bill has overtaken the progress of the Government’s response to the recent consultation, which will now be published after the Bill completes its passage through Parliament. I had hoped to be able to set out in detail the response to the government consultation. However, important work is still ongoing with this. We have had a very welcome, large and detailed number of responses to the consultation —some 1,448 in total. I was pleased to see that high level of engagement on such an issue. We need to make sure that we get this right. If taking a little extra time is what is needed to achieve this, that is the right thing to do.
However, I assure the House that, once the Bill receives Royal Assent, we will work to bring forward the necessary regulations as soon as possible with a view to laying them before the House as early as possible in 2019. That would also keep us on course for our ambition for the new right to come into force in April 2020. I hope that that commitment today will reassure the House that the Government remain committed to delivering on this manifesto commitment.
Lord Knight of Weymouth (Lab)
I am most grateful to the Minister for that update and for his assistance and that of his officials, led by the assiduous Shelley Torey. I thank other noble Lords for their assistance and the MPs in the other place—and, finally, to Lucy Herd for her inspiration and assiduous campaigning ever since her son Jack died eight years ago.