Trade Union Bill (Fourth sitting)

Nusrat Ghani Excerpts

Thursday 15th October 2015 Public Bill Committees

[Dr Lisa Cameron (East Kilbride, Strathaven and Lesmahagow) (SNP)]

Q 383 What are your opinions on the use of agency workers? What effect could that have on public safety and, where you represent healthcare workers, patient safety?

Frances O'Grady: We have very good relations and agreements with agencies and the federation representing agencies in this country. We have always worked very closely on the fair principles of employers needing flexibility to cover peaks and troughs in production, or staff absences, and doing that on the basis of equal treatment within the framework of the union agreement. This proposal is obviously quite different. We are potentially talking about employers having the right to replace wholesale workers who have democratically voted to go on strike with, potentially, untrained and inexperienced agency workers.

As we know, labour providers source from all over Europe, so is the idea that workers would be bussed in, perhaps from another country, perhaps not knowing what they are being bussed in to do, and be put in the invidious position of being asked to cross a picket line? Many employers, including the industry federation, have said publicly, very clearly, that it is absolutely wrong-headed to put agency workers in the middle of difficult disputes. It is not something we have seen in this country for 40 years or more, and frankly it is either naive or positively dangerous to deliberately seek to undermine legitimately decided and democratically voted on strikes by the use of agency labour.

Dave Prentis: It is a very final resort when a public service worker or a health worker takes industrial action. Last year was the first time in 34 years that our members have taken action over pay, and it was to achieve the Government’s 1% pay award, which the Secretary of State had denied the workers, but we reached written agreements to provide cover. We provided written agreements—we signed them with the other unions involved—on ambulance workers to make sure that ambulances were there, all ready to go in an emergency. We reached written agreements for cover on wards. Sometimes, they have better cover than they do at times when they have staff absences because they want to ensure that the critical wards are covered. There is no need for agencies to be brought in.

With the change in the thresholds and the idea of agency workers—even Margaret Thatcher did not propose this. The idea of using agency workers, combined with all the other restrictions on industrial action, is punitive. Somebody wants to attack trade unions, but they are basing it on 1980s values, and we have moved on. The Bill will not in any way affect the productivity of the country, which we should be looking at—whether competition in Britain is good enough to take on the rest of the world. We are just going to end up fighting with each other, when we should be working together to ensure that workers benefit, the organisations they work for benefit and, in our case, patients benefit.

[Nusrat Ghani (Wealden) (Con)]

Q 384 To continue on agency workers, we took evidence earlier from Mr Jon Skewes from the Royal College of Midwives. He mentioned how potentially disruptive it could be if midwives were to go on strike. There are two issues: the fact that it costs so much to bring in agency staff, and the need to ensure that staff have the right skills to support mums and babies. If midwives were to go on strike, it would put at risk pregnant mums and their babies. Are you saying you would not want any agency staff available at that unit if a mum was going into labour? Would you not then allow agency staff to come in to work, to help those mums and babies?

Dave Prentis: I heard Jon’s evidence, and he said very clearly to you that they put in far more workers—midwives—than they have brought out in demonstrations.

[Nusrat Ghani]

Q 385 I am just asking as a point of principle, because Ms O’Grady said she did not want to see any agency staff. In this sector, would you not want to see any agency staff covering the shifts of striking midwives?

Frances O'Grady: You are being completely disingenuous. As you may well be aware—perhaps you are not—unions have long-standing voluntary agreements with employers in emergency services to ensure that life and limb are not put in danger during a strike.

[Nusrat Ghani]

Q 386 So agency staff will be brought in.

Frances O'Grady: The agreements are between the employers and the unions. I refer you to the NHS employers that have written to Ministers saying they are concerned that this Bill, its tone and the aggressive approach taken by it are jeopardising the good, long-standing social partnership arrangements we have in health and many other public services.

[Nusrat Ghani]

Q 387 I just want to establish whether agency staff would be acceptable in this situation, if nobody else was available.

Dave Prentis: I have never known a time when we have taken action in health and an agency would be needed, because we provide the full-time staff to stay in. We give them a dispensation, and we reach agreements with management on the levels of staffing they think they need to run those services. On many occasions, we have more staff in than are in on a normal Saturday or Sunday.

Sir Paul Kenny: Do you honestly think that a midwife looking after a mother would walk out—

[Nusrat Ghani]

Q 388 No, I do not. I was just asking because there was a huge discussion about agency staff. I want to know where the principle would stop and start.

Sir Paul Kenny: Yes, but you use the most emotive issue.

Frances O'Grady: I was speaking to a midwife called Natalie who went on strike because of the rejection of the 1% offer. They made sure that no mother or baby lost out. [Interruption.]

[The Chair]

Order. When the Chair calls for order, you will please desist. Members are asking questions. We want replies, and we do not do it as a collective; we do it individually, through the Chair. That is normal behaviour in this place.

[Nusrat Ghani]

Q 389 You represent a large proportion of the working people in our communities and our constituencies. We heard some damning evidence this morning about what happens to people who choose not to go on strike. We heard from the London fire brigade about how difficult it is for people who choose not to go on strike to get into their fire stations and carry on with their duties, and how they are possibly putting themselves at risk by continuing to go into work.

We also heard evidence from SITA. In its written evidence, it told us that non-striking workers during a strike in Doncaster in 2011 had been subject to “sabotage of private property”. Its evidence goes on to say that

“strikers visited the homes of workers, slashing car tyres and throwing paint stripper over a car. The Working Men’s Club used by a non-striker was contacted by a striker…who threatened the steward of the club that if they allowed him to use the bar, the club would be vandalised. The club barred the non-striker.”

How are you able to represent your non-striking union members and other workers? Who is supporting them?

Len McCluskey: That is an extraordinary thing for you to put forward.

[Nusrat Ghani]

It is not for me to put forward; it was evidence given by witnesses.

Len McCluskey: Fine, and I am going to answer it. There are current laws to deal with any action of that nature, which is criminal. You have put forward a specific incident that suggests striking workers are engaged in criminal activity. The police will deal with that when it is brought to their attention. If you asking whether I support that type of criminal behaviour, no, I do not. The police have sufficient laws to deal with those issues. There is certainly no need to introduce more laws, and I will not repeat the comments that my colleagues have made about the nature of those laws. I will just remind you of what I said right at the beginning: a threat to the cohesive nature of the communities we live in is something you need to take on board. Laws already exist to deal with all of that type—

[Nusrat Ghani]

Q 390 The 2010 dispute was discussed earlier on. This evidence from 2011 is that there are people who wish to go to work but feel intimidated.

Len McCluskey: What has that got to do with the Bill? If they feel intimidated and there are incidents of vandalism, I assume they bring that to the attention of the authorities, who will deal with it. It is certainly nothing to do with trade unionism or the right to strike: the right to exercise our democratic views to an employer. It has really got nothing to do with us and nothing to do with the Bill.

Sir Paul Kenny: I am not privy to that particular evidence that was given to you—I would love to see it—but it seems to be four or five years old and I would have thought in those four or five years that the criminal acts that you seem to be describing here would have been reported to the police. I wonder what action the police took, because it sounds like individuals were known. Forgive me; I am not trying to be difficult here, but I am wondering where this fits in with our discussion.

[Nusrat Ghani]

Q 391 Who represents the workers who want to continue going to work, especially if only a minority of union workers are calling for the strike in the first place?

Sir Paul Kenny: If that is the question, that is dead easy to answer. I do not know why it had to be prefaced with stuff from four or five years ago. If you say what happens to people in the union who decide, even if they voted in a ballot, to go to work, they go to work. There are already adequate laws covering no victimisation for those individuals. There is nothing in the Bill that adds to that. Sorry, that already exists. Truthfully, I wonder how much knowledge there is in existence about the rules governing trade union bodies. That is already covered. They have a right. If they go to work, they go to work.

[Nusrat Ghani]

Q 392 They are obviously finding it difficult to go to work in these circumstances.

Len McCluskey: It is not a question about it being difficult to go to work. The current legislation allows people to go in and out of work. It allows contractors to deliver in and out of work. It allows the striking workers to exercise their right to explain why they are on strike.

If you are talking about evidence-based, I know that my own union was accused of thuggery and intimidation in the INEOS dispute. That complaint was brought by a Conservative MP—a woman whose name I forget at the moment. The result of that was that Police Scotland and the Hampshire police force said there was no case to answer. There was no criminal activity whatever. There was nothing abusive or intimidatory. If you read the headlines in the daily newspapers, you would think the complete opposite, so I ask you to understand the nature of a dispute and the manner in which trade unions try to organise in a disciplined way, because the one thing that we want when our members are out on strike is to get them back into work. We want a negotiated settlement. And trust me, this Bill will make it more difficult to achieve those types of aims.

[Ian Mearns]

Q 393 Professor Keith Ewing talked of his concerns about the potential future role and appointment of certification officers. Do you have any particular concerns about that?

Len McCluskey: I can answer that question, because we have huge concerns. Again, I am addressing Conservative colleagues on this. The first question I would ask is: what problems are supposed to be addressed by this element on the certification officer? What current problems exist? The certification officer is currently seen as an independent individual, and the current person there is highly respected by both sides of industry. It will no longer be independent.

There are no criteria about who can be the certification officer, and the most damning issue here is that anyone can complain. Any member of the public can complain to the certification officer, who would have the power to go into a union, disrupt its business and crawl all over its business in relation to how it operates. That is in stark contrast to what happens with individuals who are seeking redress at an industrial tribunal. They have to pay £1,200 up front and can be accused of vexatious behaviour. The measure would cause unnecessary upheaval in trade unions.

The slap in the face on top of it is that our members have to pay for it. Can you imagine the number of people who want to complain about Unite or any other union? We would have the certification officer, or whoever they determine, constantly working in our building, clawing over issues, with our members’ money paying for it. The big question that needs to be answered is, “What are the problems?” Why is this bit about the certification officer in the Bill? I have never heard any criticism of the certification officer’s current methods.

Frances O’Grady: With the Chair’s agreement, I am happy to add to that. As Len has pointed out, I suspect that these are some of the aspects of the Bill that David Davis was suggesting were more appropriate to Franco’s Spain than a modern democracy such as Britain. Many people are extremely worried about the idea that a certification officer can respond to complaints by employers, have the power to seize documents from union offices, impose fines and so on. The idea that the CO could, in real time, send inspectors down to picket lines does not feel like a good use of our money, given that we are also expected to pay for the privilege. It is taking industrial relations into territory that would be poisonous for both employers and unions.

Perhaps we also need to make it clear for the record that the total number of disputes that took place in Britain last year was just over 150, with a tiny proportion of days lost as a result. You have to come back to asking, “What is the problem that we are trying to crack here?” As a Financial Times leader pointed out, it smacks of the Government crossing a road to pick a fight.

Dave Prentis: Can I supplement that? There were 160 disputes and only 640 ballots—four times the number of disputes—because we negotiated settlements before announcing a ballot. The ballots are not the important thing. It is about the settlements that we reached that then led to less industrial action.

There are three major Acts of Parliament covering what we do. We are the most regulated sector within the economy, if not the western world. This merely adds to that over-regulation. It is an over-burden for which there is no need. It shows the views of the people who are putting the Bill forward. There is absolutely no need for the certification officer to have additional roles. We are well policed by them already, if not too well.

Sir Paul Kenny: I am yet to have any understanding of the justification for the certification officer’s additional powers. The powers are already wide-ranging, and I do not understand the justification, other than to shackle or restrict the ability of unions to do their job. I thought that this Government were about deregulation, but it appears that they are until it comes to unions, which they want to regulate through the teeth.

--- Later in debate ---

[The Chair]

Let me appeal once more, finally, to Members. You only have a few minutes left and five Members want to ask questions. To be fair to each other, make it short and make the replies short, too.

[Nusrat Ghani]

Q 425 The Bill aims to modernise trade unions in just the way that work is modernised. Very few people now get a pay packet; the salary goes into your bank account. Surely, in that way, any worker should be able to choose whether they want to subscribe to a union or which union they want to subscribe to. That is why there needs to be a change in check-off.

Matthew Hancock: I agree with that and I will add something to it. It improves public protection because it ensures that it is an active choice of the member to be a member of the union, rather than getting the form in a pile of paperwork on day one, signing it off and the money always going out of your pay cheque before you receive it.

On check-off, I reassure Members about how sensible this change is by quoting the PCS union, which is the biggest union in the civil service. As of this morning, its website said:

“It’s quick and easy to sign up for direct debit—you can do it online in a couple of minutes… We are asking all members to do something very simple but very important—get ready to switch payment of your subs to direct debit. It only takes a few minutes”.

That demonstrates that this is not something that people should overreact to. Rather, it is a perfectly sensible change that has taken place largely already within the civil service. The PCS, which is the union that is mostly affected, confirms on its website that it is very simple and only takes a few minutes.

[Jessica Morden]

Q 426 In the previous session, we discussed the definition of important public services. From talking with Frances O’Grady, it seems that trade unions obviously are not clear who is going to be affected. Dave Prentis said he thought it was a “nightmare”, “ill defined” and would “lead to litigation”. Will we have a chance to debate these regulations and why have they had no consultation with you about what this will mean to them in practice?

Nick Boles: To correct you, we have had consultation, which is why it is not yet clear. The consultation only closed as the other consultations did. It is one of those funny things in government: you either get into trouble for not being specific, or you get into trouble for not having consulted. We wanted to say that we are clear about the sectors that this should apply to—health, education, transport, fire, nuclear decommissioning and border control. Then the question is, is it right that it should apply to anybody and everybody working within those sectors, whether in the private sectors, ancillary jobs or core jobs? Is there a practical way of narrowing down? We consulted on this point. We have had a lot of responses to the consultation. We will bring forward specific proposals before the legislation has received Royal Assent.