Identity and Language (Northern Ireland) Bill [HL]

Lord Dodds of Duncairn Excerpts

Committee stage
Wednesday 22nd June 2022 Grand Committee

[Lord Caine (Con)]

My Lords, I think we should probably move on. In summary, the provisions of the Bill—

[Lord Dodds of Duncairn (DUP)]

Before we move on, because these matters are important, there is a report, I think in today’s newspapers, about the reduction in the number of days on which the union flag will be flown officially in Northern Ireland—albeit it appears to be related to a general reduction across the United Kingdom, so Northern Ireland would be in line with the rest of the UK. Can the Minister comment on whether this report is correct—that there will be a number of official days removed from the calendar for the whole of the United Kingdom?

[Lord Caine (Con)]

I can: there has been a review of the number of days on which the union flag is flown officially throughout Great Britain. There has been a reduction in the number of such days, and that will be reflected in Northern Ireland legislation which I will bring before your Lordships’ House fairly soon. All that is doing is ensuring that Northern Ireland is in step with the rest of the United Kingdom.

In conclusion, the provisions of the Bill do not have the effect that has been suggested in the noble Baroness’s speech, and for that reason I cannot accept the amendment.

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[Lord Empey (UUP)]

My Lords, I support the four amendments that have just been spoken to. However, my worry about all of this is that people cannot be corralled into particular identities. Among those who do not identify with, say, an Irish or a Scottish background, there are lots of people whose identity is much more fluid and relaxed. People see themselves as Irish and British; some people see themselves as Irish and Irish. We are in a quagmire. We could have 50 commissioners with no difficulty if we really drilled down to it, and that is the risk with all this.

Sinn Féin has religiously pursued the whole question of the Irish language, not for the love of language—the vast majority of them could not speak a word of it—but because it provides a difference. The quotation given by the noble Baroness, Lady Hoey, from Gerry Adams’ speech, or comments, in 1998 illustrates that and what the name of the game is: it has to be different. Indeed, I came across the minutes of a Sinn Féin meeting not long ago, I think it was last year, which had an agenda about the greening of Northern Ireland—the street names and so on. It was not to give respect to the Irish language; it was to show difference and prevent the community coming together and being cohesive. That is the one thing that it cannot cope with, because it implies the status quo.

I remind the Committee that things were divided during the strand 1 negotiations; my friend, the noble Lord, Lord Kilclooney, keeps referring to this, and he is right. As the noble Lord, Lord Murphy, will know, strand 1 was Northern Ireland only, but that seems to have moved along since the NDNA. It was announced jointly by the UK Secretary of State and the Irish Foreign Minister and, while some of the rest of the parties were still reading the draft in the building, they were down at Carson’s statue releasing it to the press. That was how seriously they took it. But that is another matter.

The fundamental point is that the reason Sinn Féin did not propose an Irish language Act and did not deal with this in the talks was that it did not want to have what it called an internal settlement, because that is anathema to its whole rationale. I fear that the danger with all this is that it goes along with its divisive approach that everybody has to be in a particular box to be recognised. That is not where most people are today, particularly our younger generation, who do not see themselves in these boxes.

Nevertheless, we are where we are, as they say. These amendments cover some of the inevitable consequences, and I support them. I hope that the Minister will take them away with him and reflect on them before Report, because I suspect that if we come to Report and things remain as they are, some of us may have to test the opinion of the House on these matters. This is a relatively modest set of amendments that will at least make people feel that, as far as this particular identity is concerned, it is respected and treated equally.

[Lord Dodds of Duncairn (DUP)]

My Lords, I will speak to Amendment 43A in the name of my noble friend Lord Morrow, but, before I do, I too send my best wishes to the noble Baroness, Lady Ritchie, since she cannot be here. I hope that she is enjoying the proceedings by video; I am sure she is. We hope to see her back in her rightful place very soon.

I also agree with noble Lords who have mentioned that it is a matter of regret that we are debating this matter at all here in this place and that it should be a matter for the Assembly. Of course, it is not by accident or some kind of inevitability that it is being debated here; it is a deliberate decision of the Government to bring it here. That is something that we debated yesterday on another matter to do with abortion regulations. These are devolved matters, and the devolution settlement should be respected, whatever the issue and whatever our view of that issue may be. If it is a matter that is devolved to the Northern Ireland Assembly and Executive, it should remain there. That is the clear position as far as I am concerned; otherwise, we pick and choose the issues that we decide to legislate on in this place, which cannot be right.

On the NDNA agreement, I just say to the Government that we look forward to all aspects of it being delivered. There is an outstanding matter in relation to the restoration of the internal market of the United Kingdom, and I look forward to rapid progress on that, in line with taking forward these other matters under NDNA—there are others matters under that agreement that are outstanding.

Talking of agreements, there has been reference to 1998, going back to the Belfast agreement and the subsequent agreement at St Andrews that amended it. It is true that none of this demand by Sinn Féin for Irish language provision was a part of the main negotiation on the Belfast agreement. Of course, much more recently we had the Assembly elections in 2016 and then the unfortunate collapse of the Northern Ireland Assembly in 2017, when Sinn Féin walked out of the Executive and Martin McGuinness resigned as Deputy First Minister. We then had three years in which the Assembly did not operate. We need to remember that, just prior to that, Sinn Féin has agreed a draft programme for government with the DUP—those two parties were in government together. Sinn Féin did not put forward Irish language provision in that, yet it became Sinn Féin’s cause célèbre in the subsequent years.

There is a lot of revisionism in terms of the importance of all this and the priorities, but when you work through the timelines and so on, a lot of this is not borne out by the actuality and reality of the situation. This was not a matter that Sinn Féin made a priority at the time, but it subsequently made it a priority in order to keep the institutions down for three years. That is worth bearing in mind in the context of where we are at the moment with the institutions and the need to implement the whole NDNA agreement.

I turn to Amendment 43A in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Morrow. When the Minister made the case for the Bill at Second Reading, he referred to the fact that the Government had made available some funds—I think it was in the region of £4 million—to the Irish Language Investment Fund

“to support capital projects associated with the Irish language.”—[Official Report, 7/6/22; col. 1097.]

This commitment, it was said, was based in the section of the NDNA agreement that dealt with Northern Ireland’s “unique circumstances”.

However, when you read that section of the document, it contains merely a passing reference:

“This could include areas such as … Support for languages and broadcasting”.


There was no explicit commitment to £4 million or any other sum for capital projects, yet this passing reference has crystallised into a hard figure for investment. This £4 million of investment follows £8 million that has already been spent by the UK Government on building Irish language centres in Northern Ireland. My understanding is that this £4 million is likely to be matched by the Irish Government, so the total for building Irish language centres is likely to be nearer £16 million. I would be grateful if the Minister could confirm whether he has had any discussions with or heard from the Irish Government on that point. Has there been any similar investment for the Ulster Scots community? I am sad to say that the answer is, no, there has not been—not a single penny.

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[Lord Empey (UUP)]

Does the noble Lord agree that the expenditure undertaken in these areas by local authorities also needs to be taken into account, as they have roads? The behaviour of some local authorities appears to me very partial and one-sided.

[Lord Dodds of Duncairn (DUP)]

The noble Lord makes a very good point, which is often overlooked when we talk about these issues—certainly, in this place because there is a lot of concentration, necessarily and inevitably, on the functions of Northern Ireland departments, the Assembly and the Executive. There has undoubtedly been a very aggressive campaign on this, lavishly funded by certain councils, particularly those west of the Bann. Taking that into account, as the noble Lord has pointed out, makes my point about the necessity of catching up all the more relevant, pertinent and urgent.

The Ulster Scots community is representative of the lion’s share of the unionist community in Northern Ireland, disadvantaged by years of underinvestment in its identity. We must ensure that it is not short-changed. Broadcasting is one example where we could see a very immediate change, I hope, if funding is made available. We need to see financial equality between the two broadcast funds and the footprint of the Ulster-Scots Broadcast Fund extended to include greater coproduction with Scotland and a presence on the UK-wide network in recognition of Ulster Scots as a national minority of the United Kingdom.

We also need to see dedicated and sustained resources to support Ulster-Scots projects on the east-west axis, in line with Amendment 30 in this group, between communities and schools—cultural and educational institutions—to engage the Ulster Scots community and diaspora throughout the United Kingdom. Recognition of the Ulster Scots nature of the commissioner’s brief, in line with Amendment 30 and more specifically through Amendment 43A, will facilitate this. I look forward to hearing what the Minister will say. I hope he will take these amendments on board, take them away and reflect on how, if implemented, they would go some way to restoring equality and parity of esteem in this area.

[Lord Caine (Con)]

My Lords, again, I am very grateful to all noble Lords who spoke to this group of amendments. I start by saying that the Government are committed to supporting the culture and heritage of the Ulster Scots and the Ulster British tradition in Northern Ireland. This includes £1 million in funding for Northern Ireland Screen’s Ulster-Scots Broadcast Fund, which was delivered last year, and the formal recognition this year of Ulster Scots as a national minority under the Council of Europe’s Framework Convention for the Protection of National Minorities. The Bill does not in any way take away from the recognised status of Ulster Scots in a number of international instruments. Indeed, its provisions protect that status and actually broaden it.

As I have said on a number of occasions, the Bill seeks faithfully to deliver on the legislative commitments in what the then leader of the Democratic Unionist Party, Dame Arlene Foster, described in January 2020 as a “fair and balanced” package. It was very clear in that package that the remit of the commissioner in respect of the Ulster Scots and Ulster British tradition would be matters of “language, arts and literature” and not culture and heritage. In the Bill we are sticking faithfully to what was in New Decade, New Approach.

Perhaps I might give some reassurance. In the new cultural framework provided for by the Bill, the office of identity and cultural expression will have an important grant-making power and will be able to commission research, support educational programmes and provide guidance reflecting Northern Ireland’s diversity of national and cultural identities. That would seem naturally to include the Ulster Scots/Ulster British tradition, given its prominence, and I hope that provides some small degree of reassurance on that point.

I also highlight that the Irish language commissioner’s role is limited to language, reflecting the particular needs of Irish speakers. If we were to widen the provision for one commissioner to include cultural matters, it is perfectly possible, given the nature of Northern Ireland, that demands could then follow from those expecting the same of both. So we need to be slightly careful on these matters.

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Moved by

[Lord Dodds of Duncairn]

8: Clause 1, page 3, line 33, at end insert—
“(5) The Secretary of State must annually assess and report on the costs arising from the operation of the Office in line with the duties prescribed in section 9(2A) and 9(2B) of the Identity and Language (Northern Ireland) Act 2022.”

[Lord Dodds of Duncairn (DUP)]

My Lords, I will talk to Amendments 8, 12, 31 and 45 in my name and that of the noble Lords, Lord Morrow, Lord Hay and Lord McCrea.

These amendments go to the issue of good housekeeping, as it were, in terms of Parliament having access to a report in relation to the office of identity and cultural expression and, in Amendment 12, to an annual assessment and report on the costs arising from the Irish language commissioner. By virtue of Amendment 31, the same provision would also apply in relation to the Ulster Scots commissioner—if I may use that shorthand. Amendment 45 would put an obligation on the Secretary of State to

“lay before Parliament a report assessing the costs to the public purse of the establishment and operation of each of the three bodies”.

These are sensible and not particularly controversial provisions. I do not think that they should evoke alarm anywhere. Obviously, each body will publish its own financial reports and details in its own right, but it is right that these requirements are placed on the Secretary of State so that parliamentarians have a full, open and transparent picture of what is being expended and how it is being expended in terms of each of these novel, new bodies.

As has come up today and was discussed at Second Reading, the costs of all these new arrangements in NDNA, as reflected in this legislation, are somewhat subject to guesstimates. So far, nobody has been able to put a figure on what all this will actually cost. As has been raised by many people, there is a genuine concern that, when we come to prioritising expenditure in Northern Ireland—opinion polls have reflected this concern time and again—the issue at the heart of this legislation is not a high priority for people in either community, or of no community, in Northern Ireland. The health service, education, public services generally, the police service, the operation of the courts, the environment—as we know, all these issues are seen as extremely more deserving of high prioritisation when it comes to public expenditure in Northern Ireland, as you would expect.

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[Lord Caine (Con)]

My Lords, I thank my noble friend Lord Dodds of Duncairn for the way in which moved his amendment. The effect of this group of amendments would be to place the Secretary of State under a duty to assess ahead of commencement, and annually thereafter, the costs arising from the three bodies.

I genuinely appreciate the intent behind these amendments but it is, as my noble friend Lord Deben made clear in his comments, not a matter for UK Government Ministers to conduct annual assessments for public bodies for which they are not directly responsible. The three public authorities established by this Bill will be administered, supported and funded by the Executive Office and fall squarely under the devolved competence of the Northern Ireland Assembly.

My noble friend referred to the estimated costs of the bodies. That will be a matter for the Northern Ireland Executive and the Assembly, although my officials—I think this is in the Explanatory Notes—have estimated through comparison with similar bodies a figure in the range of around £9 million per annum for all three bodies to run. As my noble friend Lord Deben highlighted, expenditure from the Northern Ireland Consolidated Fund is for the Northern Ireland Assembly to scrutinise. That is why, in the case of all three authorities, specific provision is made for the Executive Office to lay a copy of the statement of accounts and the statement of the Comptroller and Auditor-General for Northern Ireland before the Assembly.

Although Parts 6 and 7, which we will come on to later, make provision for the Secretary of State to ensure the implementation of the provisions in this Bill if that is absolutely necessary, I again highlight that it is not the intention of either the Government or that part of the Bill to result in a situation in which the Secretary of State routinely involves himself in transferred matters.

These amendments would make the Secretary of State’s involvement in transferred matters of identity, language and culture a permanent feature. We would prefer those to remain considerations for Northern Ireland’s devolved institutions. For that reason, I urge my noble friend to withdraw his amendment.

[Lord Dodds of Duncairn (DUP)]

My Lords, I am grateful to the Minister for his response and for the manner in which he has dealt with the issue. I understand where he is coming from. The tone and tenor in all these debates relating to Northern Ireland are important. Seeking to raise a matter to do with financial accountability does not, and should not, evoke the level of vitriol that we heard from the noble Lord behind me in relation to these matters. Whatever his underlying attitude to a particular party or to the unionist community in Northern Ireland, these are important matters, which have been the subject of detailed scrutiny, not just by the DUP but, being subject to three years’ negotiation, by all the other parties as well: the Alliance Party; the Ulster Unionists, who were involved in the negotiation, so I totally respect what the noble Lord, Lord Empey, said about the final bit of it; the SDLP; and Sinn Féin.

It is not in any spirit of a lack of generosity that we want proper, detailed scrutiny in Committee of aspects of legislation. After all, we would not have an NDNA agreement if it was not for the fact that the DUP, along with Sinn Féin and other parties, subscribed to it. We would not have had the restoration of the Assembly had it not been for the fact that Arlene Foster, Sinn Féin and other parties said, “On this basis, we can move forward.” It was not everything that we wanted—far from it. I am sure that it was not everything that other parties wanted—far from it. But, as I am sure the noble Lord, Lord Murphy, can testify, neither were the Belfast agreement, the St Andrews agreement or anything else.

My noble friend Lord McCrea makes a very fair point. Those of us who have been subject to murder attacks by Sinn Féin have been prepared to sit alongside Sinn Féin Ministers—I have been an Executive Minister, sitting and working alongside them—who have never apologised or expressed an ounce of regret for any of the actions that they carried out. Indeed, they still eulogise those murderers today, which is a source of great contention and problems in Northern Ireland. If we are talking about generosity, let us remember that. The explosion in this debate is perhaps illustrative of a wider problem which exists with some people who perhaps do not have the degree of understanding that their long experience should give them, nor, certainly, a respect for the way in which Northern Ireland matters should be properly debated and discussed. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

Amendment 8 withdrawn.

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The danger is that one will eviscerate the Good Friday mechanisms for governing Northern Ireland to the point where they simply become a sort of level of local government acting on a voluntary basis, with many important or controversial decisions passed back up to the Secretary of State as the institutions of the Good Friday agreement gradually drain away. I very much believe that that would be bad for Northern Ireland. I hope that the Government would agree and will give some countenance to Amendment 43.

[Lord Dodds of Duncairn (DUP)]

My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Moylan, has eloquently set out the dangers of the approach that the Government are taking through the insertion of Clauses 6 and 7. I support Amendment 43 in his name and that of the noble Baroness, Lady Hoey. Our position that Clause 7 should not stand part of the Bill would go further in deleting the Secretary of State’s override powers completely. However, I understand entirely that, when we have a functioning Assembly, there certainly should be no question of the Secretary of State having the power to intervene.

The issue is very clear, as was illustrated yesterday in the debate on the abortion regulations. These clauses are another example of what one noble Lord described as the Government’s pick-and-mix approach to devolution and the Belfast agreement as amended by the St Andrews agreement. Some issues are picked out to be legislated for here in Westminster and other issues are not touched at all; we saw this between 2017 and 2020, when the Government’s attitude was that they could do nothing at all to move issues forward, legislate or step in.

However, now, they are doing so on other issues. We had it with yesterday’s regulations on abortion, which is a devolved matter for the Northern Ireland Assembly and was lifted out of it to be legislated for here. We had it on the protocol, where the Belfast agreement and the Northern Ireland Act were disgracefully amended by secondary legislation to ensure that, for the vote on the protocol—it was given to the Assembly and therefore, by definition, was devolved to it—the voting mechanism was changed. The very architecture of the Belfast agreement was changed at the Government’s whim without agreement among the parties.

Here is another example. As the noble Lords, Lord Moylan and Lord Empey, have said, this goes to the heart of the operation of the institutions in Northern Ireland. There is no doubt that people will inevitably feel that, going forward, if there are intractable or difficult issues, they will go with their competing demands to whoever is in power at Westminster and demand that it should act in their favour—although I suspect that unionists will be less keen to do that than nationalists, given the track record of success at getting Westminster to legislate over the wishes of the Assembly. I fear that it seems to be a rather one-sided approach. There is no justification on this issue in terms of the principle of devolution, which applies throughout the United Kingdom; the Sewel convention has been mentioned. It undermines the principle of devolution and the Belfast agreement as amended.

I throw this point in also; obviously the Minister can deal with it when he comes to reply. He said that the New Decade, New Approach document should be faithfully followed, that part of this legislation is about putting into practice and law the provisions of that agreement, and that it should be departed from very rarely—if at all—but can he point to anywhere in the NDNA agreement that says that the Secretary of State would have override powers or intervention powers? Where is that provision to be found?

Of course, the Secretary of State and the Government always implicitly have such powers but it seems to me that, when parties make an agreement in the context of an operational assembly and an agreement on how things should be agreed between them, that assembly is where the matter should lie. Yes, there will be difficulties in reaching agreements—the noble Lord, Lord Empey, pointed to one particularly good example about notepaper—but the point is that there have been serious issues on which there was disagreement initially but agreement was eventually reached between the First Minister and Deputy First Minister, or between the parties in the Executive, because it had to be.

I hear Ministers continually referring to their support for the Belfast/Good Friday agreement and how committed they are to it, yet their actions in recent months have been very concerning in terms of their approach to the institutions and powers of the Executive and the Assembly as set out in that agreement. They are effectively undermining it.

I believe that Clause 7 should not stand part of the Bill and I lend my support to Amendment 43. I also happen to agree with Amendment 40, moved by the noble Lord, Lord Murphy of Torfaen, in the sense that, if there is a situation where this clause does go through and the Secretary of State does have that power, he or she should be required to come and make a Statement to Parliament, as opposed to not having that obligation. Again, that would be an opportunity to hold people to account.

[Lord Empey (UUP)]

Not having been intimately involved in the New Decade, New Approach negotiations, is the noble Lord saying that there were no provisions in that agreement for Secretary of State override powers? Am I right in taking that as his position? If that is the case, could it be that a deal has been done with Sinn Féin to guarantee that, irrespective of what happens in the Assembly, its particular version of events will be implemented by the Secretary of State? Is that possible?

The genesis of the Irish language Act is in the final communiqué of the St Andrews agreement, where the British Government commit to introducing such an Act. I just wonder whether a private understanding has occurred; I am sure that the Minister can clarify that if that is the case. However, if the noble Lord is saying that we are putting into this piece of supposedly devolved legislation a clause that means that the Assembly in and of itself is not the final arbiter of its decisions, the sooner we have that clarified, the better.

[Lord Dodds of Duncairn (DUP)]

I am grateful to the noble Lord. A lot of those questions are for the Minister; I look forward to hearing what he has to say in relation to these matters.

I want to clarify the point about the St Andrews agreement and the Irish language provisions, which were also referred to by the noble Lord, Lord Murphy. He is quite correct that Sinn Féin went to the Government at the very last minute and wanted provision to be made but, of course, it was not a matter for the negotiations between the parties; it was a last-minute effort by the Sinn Féin negotiators to get the Government to commit to doing it. Of course, the Government made some commitments but they were not binding on the local parties and, because it was a devolved matter, that is where it stayed.

As far as we are concerned, just like abortion, the issues of identity and language are matters for the Northern Ireland Assembly. That is the basis on which agreements were made. Going forward, I believe that it is dangerous for the stability of the Assembly and all the other institutions if the Government take this pick-and-mix approach and decide that they will act unilaterally on certain issues. That is not sustainable and will ultimately cause major problems. It has done so already but it will cause more problems down the line.

[Baroness Suttie (LD)]

I agree with what the noble Lord, Lord Dodds, said about Amendment 40, which I co-signed. It is primarily a probing amendment. The noble Lord, Lord Dobbs, made the point that if the Bill goes through unamended, it is extremely important that this House and the House of Commons are able to probe exactly why the Secretary of State has deemed something to be appropriate. “Appropriate” is a very subjective term, and it is not sufficient just to lay orders before Parliament. It is important that it is fleshed out, discussed, debated and aired. I agree with the earlier comment about some of the statements in this House and in the House of Commons not always being sufficient. If the Bill goes through unamended, it is important that there is some form of parliamentary scrutiny of why the Secretary of State has taken these measures because he or she has deemed them to be appropriate.

Identity and Language (Northern Ireland) Bill [HL]

Lord Dodds of Duncairn Excerpts

Report stage
Wednesday 6th July 2022 Lords Chamber

[Lord Morrow (DUP)]

My Lords, I am pleased to speak to Amendments 2A, 4, 16, 35A and 37, and I point out at the commencement that the noble Lord, Lord Empey, is a signatory to them but regrettably is unable to be with us today due to domestic circumstances. We wish him well and I thank him for attaching his name to them. My noble friend Lord Browne, to my left, will speak on some of these amendments in place of the noble Lord, Lord Empey.

I want to be very clear from the outset that the view of the DUP is that the two commissioners are different and their functions do not need to be made identical; indeed, we do not believe that making them identical would be appropriate. However, it is vital, not least in order to respect the principle of parity of esteem, that both commissioners be respected by all parts of government and society as equally important. One key way in which this respect needs to be manifest is in ensuring that the amounts of public money devoted to both are comparable. In making this point, I observe that the Explanatory Notes suggest that the funding for both commissioners will be similar, but it is my contention that this assertion is made on a problematic basis. The costing is assessed narrowly, in terms of the direct costs of running the offices of two commissioners, but that is surely just a fraction of the impact—certainly of the Irish language commissioner—on the public purse.

One can only have any hope of assessing the impact of the provision of the commissioners if, in addition to assessing the relevantly limited cost of running their offices, one has regard also for the budgetary impact they will have in placing additional demands on public authorities. It is in relation to their impact on public authorities that the real cost of the commissioners will be felt, and it is important, especially in the context of the current cost of living crisis, that we are open and honest about this fact.

The relevant public authorities are defined by the Public Services Ombudsman Act (Northern Ireland) 2016, which lists well over 70 public authorities in Northern Ireland. If we consider the principal aim of the Irish language commissioner, described in new Section 78K(1) as,

“enhance … the use of the Irish language”,

it is possible that every single public authority in that long list will be in receipt of significant new obligations and costs, relating to the provision of the services of the public authority in question in Irish. They will, however, also benefit from a duty to have regard to obligation being placed on public authorities in relation to them and the complaints procedure with respect to the entirety of their obligations as defined by the Irish language commissioner.

By contrast, the role of the Ulster Scots commissioner is also defined in terms of the same list of public authorities, the principal aim of the commissioner, to

“enhance … the language, arts and literature”,

of Ulster Scots, rather than enhancing the use of the language, as described in new Section 78Q(1), is such that while it is clear that some public authorities concerned with culture and the arts will be engaged, it is also likely that the demands placed on the long list of others, including, for example, the Northern Ireland Fishery Harbour Authority, the Health and Safety Executive, the Agri-Food and Biosciences Institute, et cetera, will be very limited indeed.

Put another way, while every public authority is equally and extensively open to engagement by the Irish language commissioner, because all public authority services must be provided in the context of the use of language, it seems to me that every public authority is not as equally and as extensively engaged by the Ulster Scots/Ulster-British commissioner.

At this point, I should perhaps anticipate the response that the Bill makes reference to the role of the Ulster Scots/Ulster-British commissioner in terms of,

“facilitating the use of Ulster Scots in the provision of services to the public or a section of the public in Northern Ireland”.

However, while the principal role of the Irish language commissioner, as described in new Section 78K(1), is focused on enhancing the use of the language in public service provision, the parallel principal role of the Ulster Scots commissioner is defined in terms of enhancing the language, literature and arts of Ulster Scots. Although facilitating the use of Ulster Scots by public authorities in service provision is by no means off limits, the fact that it is not front and centre, as in the case of the Irish language commissioner, is underlined by the fact that reference to it does not occur in the principal role definition when it is mentioned lower down, as in new Section 78R(2)(b) where it is only in brackets.

In response to the debate on costs in Committee, the Minister referred simply to the Explanatory Note, which focuses narrowly on the costs of running the three organisations, not on the cost to the public purse with respect to public authorities. In responding to that debate, the Minister stated also that it was not the business of Westminster to get involved in monitoring the costs of the new bodies. I accept that point, after the bodies are established.

My Amendment 37, however, pertains to the period before the Bill comes into force and so is directed at Westminster and Whitehall. While it is not our job to run offices, it is our job to make this legislation very clear about the costs for which Northern Ireland must prepare. Amendment 37 requires that, before this Act can come into force, the Secretary of State must lay before Parliament a report assessing both the operational costs of setting up and running the three offices, and the costs to public authorities of engaging with the new commissioners and their requirements. Critically, it requires also that this assessment demonstrates how the resulting spending allocation, including that from the public authorities, will give effect to the principle of the parity of esteem between the unionist and nationalist communities.

Amendments 4, 16 and 35A would place a similar obligation on the First and Deputy First Ministers for once the two commissioners are up and running in order to ensure that the spending allocations to each community are broadly comparable. Amendment 2A applies the same obligation in relation to their assessment of the spending of the office of identity and cultural expression.

I hope that the Minister is in a position to give the following assurances that I am looking for in speaking to these amendments today: first, that the role of both commissioners should be accorded equal importance; and, secondly, as a function of this, that the budgetary footprint left by each commissioner in terms of their impact on public authorities should be broadly the same. In responding to the debate today, I ask that the Minister directly addresses these two points. I beg to move.

[Lord Dodds of Duncairn (DUP)]

My Lords, I will very briefly add a word or two. By way of general introduction, I agree with noble Lords who have already said that this is a matter that should be decided and debated in the Northern Ireland Assembly rather than in this place. Of course, had the Government wished that to be the case, they could have left it to the Northern Ireland Assembly. However, it was a decision taken by Her Majesty’s Government to bring it here, and we are therefore debating it today. Nevertheless, we are now examining these matters in detail, and the other place will deal with this in due course.

Since I had spoken on this issue of accountability and financial responsibility in Committee, I wanted to agree with the noble Lord, Lord Morrow, in the amendments that he has set out, and to stress the point that the Minister in Committee said that these were matters for the Northern Ireland Assembly and therefore that it would be inappropriate to have Whitehall, the Northern Ireland Office or this Parliament have reports presented to them on expenditure in relation to these commissioners, bodies and so on. But the amendment to which the noble Lord, Lord Morrow, has referred on the costs to public authorities, which would require that a report be laid before the commencement of the Bill, is right and proper for this Parliament to consider. It is entirely right that the Comptroller and Auditor-General will examine the accounts of the commissioners’ offices, and I urge that that should also look at the parity issue in relation to the fairness of expenditure across the board between the two offices and the office of identity and cultural expression.

However, the impact on public authorities has not been adequately investigated or probed thus far. While the Minister referred to cost, which the noble Lord has alluded to, in the Explanatory Notes, as I understand it, the estimated cost to public authorities of fulfilling the requirements in terms of guidance and so on has never been set out. I would be grateful if the Minister could deal with that point in his response and indicate whether any study or work has been done with those public authorities which will be engaged and affected by this legislation and by the guidance that emerges from the commissioners’ offices. Has any work been done with them about the impact on them in terms of costs, where any budgetary pressures may emerge and how those will be met? This matter deserves a little more scrutiny. We have had representations on it, and I hope that the Minister can address it when he sums up.

[Lord Caine (Con)]

My Lords, I am very grateful to the noble Lords, Lord Morrow and Lord Dodds of Duncairn, and to my noble friend Lord Empey. I too regret that he cannot be here this afternoon; I understand that family commitments in Belfast detain him, and we all wish him well.

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[Lord Lexden (Con)]

My Lords, like other speakers, I have very considerable sympathy for the views that the noble Lord, Lord Morrow, expressed. I urge my noble friend the Minister to keep the key words “parity of esteem” constantly in mind. That is the heart of the matter. I hope he will indeed reflect further, as he has been encouraged to do. It really would be a tragedy not to do all that is possible to allay the considerable misgivings with which this legislation is currently viewed by many unionists in Northern Ireland.

[Lord Dodds of Duncairn (DUP)]

My Lords, following on from the noble Lord, Lord Murphy, I hope the Minister will remain in his place, because he brings a large degree of experience and knowledge to the situation. I certainly hope he can continue in his post for as long as possible.

I welcome what the noble Lord, Lord Murphy, and the noble Baroness, Lady Suttie, said about these amendments. There are two issues. The first is parity of esteem, as the noble Lord, Lord Lexden, said. This legislation has been very controversial and it no doubt will be. It must be implemented with people feeling that they are being treated equally. I was involved in some of the negotiations and if anyone had suggested at the time that the New Decade, New Approach agreement meant that there would be this difference in duty, it would never have been agreed on that basis. It is clear that the two should be treated equally, with the same duties on public authorities regarding each of them. I echo the calls for this to be considered further before it gets to the other place.

Secondly, if we are talking about reflecting accurately the NDNA agreement—we will come on to this with more significant clauses later in the Bill—it is important that there is not a piecemeal approach. If NDNA is to be faithfully replicated and the duty is placed on public authorities with regard to the Irish language commissioner, then we either have Amendment 4A, which would take it away from the Irish language commissioner, which I do not wish to see happen, or we have Amendment 17, which would make it an equal approach. That is something the Government should think about very seriously, in the interests of boosting confidence and giving reassurance.

[Lord Caine (Con)]

Again, I am grateful to noble Lords for their contributions, in particular the noble Lord, Lord Murphy, for elevating me to the position once occupied by the first Duke of Wellington in the 1830s, when, in his caretaker Administration, I think he occupied every position in the Government bar Lord Chancellor and Chancellor of the Exchequer—my noble friend Lord Lexden will correct me if I am wrong. Let us hope that it does not come to that.

This was another a matter of great interest and extensive and lengthy debate in Grand Committee and I will try to respond without necessarily repeating all the same arguments that we examined in detail there. The Government’s view is that it is very clearly set out in Annexe E of New Decade, New Approach, a document that I gently remind some noble Lords was hailed at the time by the Democratic Unionist Party as “fair and balanced”. The roles and functions of the two commissioners are different, reflecting the respective needs of Irish as a language, Ulster Scots as a national minority, and the Ulster-British tradition. That is why the provision for those respective groups is set out differently in New Decade, New Approach, including in respect of the legal duties set out in this Bill. The Government believe that that was for good reason.

I hope this goes some way to answering concerns from a number of noble Lords, including the noble Baroness, Lady Suttie: to answer her question directly, I had a very constructive meeting with Ian Crozier from the Ulster-Scots Agency and am very happy to continue to engage with the Ulster-Scots Agency and with Irish language groups that I have already met. I have absolutely no issue with doing that at all.

To go back to the point, the role of the Irish language commissioner pertains to matters of language alone. Its work focuses on best practice standards on the Irish language for public authorities to follow in providing their services. Accordingly, there is a specific legal duty in this regard. In comparison, the commissioner associated with the Ulster Scots and the Ulster-British traditions will cover arts and literature in addition to language. The legal duty proposed here by Amendment 17 from the noble Lord, Lord Morrow, would therefore have the effect of being far broader than that on the Irish language, covering public authorities’ work on arts and literature.

I will just come back on one point made by the noble Lord, Lord Morrow, when I think he stated that the Irish commissioner would cover 70-plus authorities but the Ulster Scots commissioner would not. The Government’s position is very clear that the Ulster Scots and Ulster-British commissioner will cover exactly the same public authorities as the Irish language counterpart and will still be able to receive complaints where its advice and guidance are not followed. I want to be clear on that.

Therefore, the amendments proposed by noble Lords this afternoon, in the Government’s view, seem to go far beyond the fair and balanced package reached in New Decade, New Approach, and as such the Government cannot accept them.

I understand that we will return to this matter later, but I highlight also that there is a specific new legal duty for Ulster Scots in relation to the education system provided by the Bill. This will address the current lack of statutory provision for Ulster Scots in the education system. I also highlight that the commissioners will be able to administer complaints in relation to the compliance with public authorities on their guidance and standards issued and lay reports before the Assembly.

Amendment 4A would remove the legal duty in relation to the Irish Language best practice standards. Those standards were a key function of the Irish language commissioner, as set out in paragraph 27(d) of New Decade, New Approach. The standards provided for in the Bill are, therefore, consistent with New Decade, New Approach and the legal duty set out in the proposed draft legislation accompanying it, in new Section 78I(1) of the Northern Ireland Act 1998.

Annexe E of New Decade, New Approach, in paragraph 5.9, accordingly speaks of public authorities fulfilling their “requirement” under the standards and it would seem clear from a reading of both that document and the draft legislation together that the legal duty provided for in this Bill is consistent with the position reached by the parties in the talks. Reflecting the fact that the standards are associated with a legal duty, these will require the approval of the First and Deputy First Ministers, acting jointly, to be given effect. This is intended to provide a level of assurance and oversight over the requirements set by the commissioner.

I highlight that no such approval from the First Minister and Deputy First Minister is required for the guidance and advice of the commissioner for the Ulster Scots and the Ulster-British tradition; nor is approval required for guidance so that complaints can be made in relation to the failure of public authorities to comply with it. With this context in mind, I hope noble Lords will appreciate that the provision for the commissioners and the associated legal duties reflects the delicate and fair balance and the particular needs of the groups that they will serve. The Government cannot accept propositions that would deviate from New Decade, New Approach or the legal duties set out in the original draft legislation that accompanied that document. I would therefore be grateful if the noble Lords did not press their amendments.

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[Baroness Goudie (Lab)]

My Lords, I support my noble friend Lady Ritchie’s amendments. Furthermore, I ask the Minister to consider that committees and other organisations around the strategy should have equal numbers of men and women, and of various religions and others, so that this truly bears out the Good Friday agreement and the Bill. This would be a great move, and I know the Minister could see to this. Perhaps it could also be debated fully in the other House. I raised this on Second Reading.

[Lord Dodds of Duncairn (DUP)]

My Lords, I speak in support of Amendments 28, 29 and 36 in the names of the noble Lords, Lord Morrow and Lord Empey, but I will first deal with Amendment 25 in the name of the noble Baroness, Lady Ritchie.

I understand where the noble Baroness is coming from with this amendment, which we also discussed in Committee. Part of the reason for it is to allow decisions to be made if there is no Northern Ireland Executive in place, but from my reading of it—I stand to be corrected—if it were to be agreed, these powers to act after 30 days would apply whether there were a Northern Ireland Executive or not. In other words, even if the Assembly and the Executive are in place but a period of 30 days elapses between the trigger point and a decision being made, it is open to the Secretary of State to intervene. That seems a quite draconian suggestion. I have been in the Northern Ireland Executive, like the noble Baroness and others, and many decisions take longer than 30 days, for all sorts of good reasons and considerations of all sorts of circumstances. It seems an amazing proposition that the Secretary of State would be compelled to act if the Office of the First Minister and Deputy First Minister could not agree something within 30 days. I can think of nothing more designed to undermine the principle of devolution than that. From my reading of the amendment, it clearly would apply not just to the circumstances where there was no Executive but even if the Executive were in place.

The other thing I point out is that the amendment would apply only to the appointment of the Irish language commissioner, so there is no compulsion for the Secretary of State to act if there is a failure to appoint the Ulster Scots/Ulster-British commissioner. It seems one-sided in that approach. Nor indeed would it apply to appointments relating to the office of identity and cultural expression. It seems to be very much overstepping the mark. It would not fulfil the purposes it purports to and would create a one-sided approach in relation to appointments. For those reasons, I trust that the Government will maintain their position from Committee and not support the amendment.

Amendments 28, 29 and 36 in the names of my noble friend Lord Morrow and the noble Lord, Lord Empey, would remove the override powers from the Bill. In his opening remarks, the noble Lord, Lord Murphy, made the very important point that the Bill is designed to stick as closely as possible to the NDNA agreement. That is what we are about. On a number of occasions, the Minister cited in support of his arguments in knocking down some amendments that we must reflect the NDNA agreement and that those provisions were not in it. It is certainly not in the NDNA agreement that the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland would be given override powers, as the Minister admitted in Committee.

If it had been suggested that this would be part of the agreement, I do not think there would have been an agreement. If we had set up a series of checks and balances, and requirements for the First Minister and Deputy First Minister to agree, and then said, “If they can’t agree, don’t agree, or it appears to the Secretary of State to be appropriate then he can intervene and take on all the powers of the First Minister and Deputy First Minister in this respect”, which is a devolved matter, there would not have been an agreement. It so undermines the NDNA agreement and devolution itself that I find it hard to see how the Minister can justify it. He cannot do so on the basis that it is a faithful replication of the agreement, or on the grounds that it faithfully adheres to the devolution arrangements throughout the United Kingdom. It is clearly in breach of the Sewel convention and it acts as a clear disincentive to find agreement.

This is one of the many areas where the First and Deputy First Minister—and, indeed, the Executive—are required to reach agreement without the fallback that if they do not then the Secretary of State will intervene. That forces agreement to be made in the vast bulk of cases. If it is clear to some people that the Secretary of State will intervene if they simply dig in their heels and do not agree, then that is likely what will happen. I think this is a very misconceived part of the Bill. I understand that the argument may well be that it is a difficult area and we need contingency powers, as the Minister set out in Committee, but, again, contingency powers to avoid this problem arising were not part of the NDNA.

I come back to the basic principle. This Bill is about implementing that agreement. We are all agreed on that. These clauses were not part of the agreement. They are unilateral actions on the part of the Government to reserve unto themselves powers to override the Executive. We have seen this in a number of areas recently and I have raised with the Secretary of State and with others within government that we are going down a very dangerous path with this selective overriding of the devolved settlement. We have seen it in relation to the abortion issue, in relation to this issue and in relation to the protocol issue, where the voting mechanism of the Assembly, which is meant to be cross-community and cross-party agreement—there has to be a majority of unionists, nationalists and an overall majority—has been set aside arbitrarily.

Where does this end? What criteria do the Government apply for where they respect devolution and where they set it aside? Can the Minister tell us what are the overall considerations as to when powers are taken by the Secretary of State to override devolution, the Belfast agreement or the NDNA agreement? Is it on a case-by-case basis? What is it? I think it raises very serious questions.

I hope that when this matter is dealt with in the other place, the Government will reconsider this approach because, as I say, it is not a faithful replication of the NDNA agreement.

[Lord Murphy of Torfaen (Lab)]

My Lords, I must say that the final debate of this evening has been fascinating. There are times where I am glad I am not the Minister, and this is one of them. There are quite convincing and interesting arguments on both sides. I remember that the late Lord Cledwyn Hughes, when he chaired the Parliamentary Labour Party, would start his deliberation as chairman by saying: “There are pros and cons for and there are pros and cons against.” That is the case here.

It is about protection. My noble friends Lady Ritchie and Lady Goudie were talking about protecting this legislation, protecting the agreement that has produced the legislation so that something which in the past, as we all know, brought down the Assembly for three years ought not to happen again. Of course, we have to ensure that the legislation is balanced for both nationalists and unionists and, indeed, other members of the community in Northern Ireland. I quite understand the need for reassurance but then there is the other protection: the protection for devolution. It would be much easier, by the way, if the Assembly and the Executive were functioning because the argument would be much more effective but, of course, they are not and that is one of the problems. Because there is no real, effective Assembly or Government in Northern Ireland, it is very difficult to ensure that there is certainty about this legislation when they are not there. I can understand that too.

As I said in Committee, when I was the Secretary of State I felt deeply uncomfortable about making decisions for people in Northern Ireland when I was a Member for a Welsh valley constituency. It was for the people of Northern Ireland to decide what they had to do. On schools, education, language, culture or whatever it might be, it is for those people in Northern Ireland who were elected by the people of Northern Ireland to make the decisions. They have elected them and, frankly, it is about time they got into government. I understand all the issues that underlie why that is not happening.