Scottish Independence and the Scottish Economy

Nia Griffith Excerpts

Wednesday 2nd November 2022 Commons Chamber

[Dame Nia Griffith (Llanelli) (Lab)]

It is very important that we do not confuse the institution of the UK Government with this shambles of a Tory Government. Their performance over the past 12 years, compounded by the disastrous Budget on 23 September and followed by four weeks of inaction in which they were too slow to stop the damage, has left people up and down the country in real difficulties. It has left our allies shocked and our reputation on the international stage trashed. People now face higher mortgage payments, higher interest rates, a 12-year squeeze on public sector pay and benefits, and rampant inflation—all because of this Tory Government’s obsession with tax cuts for the rich.

To that extent, I very much agree with the first part of the motion, but we must separate the failure of this Tory Government from the concept of being in the United Kingdom. I am very proud to be Welsh and to speak Welsh, and I know that Scottish people are rightly proud to be Scottish, but I am also proud to be British. We in Wales and Scotland have so much to gain from being part of the UK. It is not about nostalgia or an outdated view of the United Kingdom; it is about a recognition of the UK’s current position in the world.

Admittedly, this Tory Government have done their best to trash our reputation. Nevertheless, we are an important economy—the sixth largest national economy in the world—and we are in the G7. That gives us influence—an influence that Wales and Scotland would never have on their own, and an influence that can be used for good, as we saw when the banks crashed the economy and caused the financial of crisis of 2008. The Labour Prime Minister, Gordon Brown, was instrumental in persuading other world leaders to take the necessary mitigating action, showing real leadership. That same Gordon Brown had secured an agreement from the G7 in 2005 to get the debts of the 18 poorest countries in the world cancelled by the World Bank and the International Monetary Fund. I could go on, talking about his tackling the AIDS and HIV crisis, and providing education for girls worldwide. That is the sort of influence that we can wield as the United Kingdom.

The same applies to climate change, which is of huge concern to many people in Wales and Scotland. We all recognise that tackling it has to be a joint effort, not just throughout the UK but by nations across the world. As the UK we have much greater influence—notwithstanding the appalling pantomime we have seen from the current Prime Minister, first snubbing COP27, the success of which is vital to the very future of life on earth, and then finally being shamed into grudgingly attending—but in the past, we as the UK have used our influence for good. When Labour was in government we passed the Climate Change Act 2008, a world first, and we showed leadership on the world stage in conferences from Kyoto to Copenhagen.

Labour has delivered on devolution to Wales and Scotland, which has enabled us to do things differently. In Wales, for example, Labour placed a moratorium on fracking. It has allowed and encouraged the roll-out of onshore wind. It provides a wide range of additional support grants to help the poorest, and is now consulting on radical changes in business rates. Scottish Labour has called on the Scottish National party to use its power to do more by topping up the Scottish welfare fund, writing off school meals arrears, and providing extra funds for money advice services.

However, critical to getting the best from devolution is a good relationship between the UK Government and the devolved national Governments. Our Labour vision for that relationship is a vision of respect and co-operation—of a Union of nations which want to work together for the greater good of all. Unfortunately, that has not always been the case with this Tory Government, as we saw most recently when the former Tory Prime Minister failed to pick up the phone to the Welsh or the Scottish First Minister during her term of office. That is precisely the sort of behaviour that we do not want, because of course it breeds resentment and makes us feel angry, and the Tory Government are just feeding the calls for independence.

Similarly, with the passing of the United Kingdom Internal Market Act 2020 we saw a Tory Government ride roughshod over the devolved nations, driving forward acceptance of the lowest common denominator in terms of environmental standards. We could have had a much more constructive and consensual dialogue. We must not forget that things could be different. At the time of the recent trade treaties with Australia and New Zealand, the officials in the Department for International Trade were helpful in working with the Welsh Government, but that should not be left to chance. We need a proper concordat, enshrining proper processes and consultation, to accord the devolved nations the respect and influence that they deserve on issues that affect Wales and Scotland respectively.

So yes, we definitely need to improve the working of devolution and the relationship between devolved Governments and the UK Government, but the answer is not independence—not because Scotland could not be independent, but because there are substantial issues which need to be considered but which the SNP tends to gloss over. For instance, as my hon. Friend the Member for Edinburgh South (Ian Murray) explained so clearly, there is the issue of a new currency being devalued. That would cause major difficulties, with people being paid in the new currency but having to make mortgage payments at the value of the UK pound. There is also the problem of how Scotland would cope with its share of the UK national debt, not to mention, of course, the uncertainty over pensions.

We have all seen the complications that Brexit has thrown up. Given that the majority of Scottish exports go to the rest of the UK, the idea of a hard border, as proposed by the First Minister of Scotland, will be sending shudders through Scotland’s economy. Ultimately, however, it is the opinion of the people in Scotland that matters. As has been mentioned already, 18 of the last 19 opinion polls have shown that a majority are not in favour of independence. They want the Scottish Government to concentrate on helping them with their day-to-day problems, and to stop obsessing about independence.

Scotland’s Constitutional Future

Nia Griffith Excerpts

Tuesday 10th January 2012 Commons Chamber

[Michael Moore]

I am afraid that for reasons that should now be obvious I do not agree with the hon. Gentleman.

[Nia Griffith (Llanelli) (Lab)]

The Secretary of State will be aware that in Wales a convention process took place before the referendum on further powers. Can he explain exactly how we will ensure the fullest possible participation by trade unions, the business community and a genuinely representative cross-section of civic society in the consultation that he has announced?

[Michael Moore]

The consultation is open to everyone in Scotland and across the United Kingdom, and indeed elsewhere, should they wish to offer their opinions. I am confident that we will get a good response, and I hope that we will then be able to chart a way to getting a legal, fair and decisive referendum and a proper decision on Scotland’s place in the United Kingdom.

Public Sector Pensions

Nia Griffith Excerpts

Thursday 8th December 2011 Commons Chamber

[Nia Griffith (Llanelli) (Lab)]

I want to pay tribute to all those public sector workers who work hard, often in gruelling and unglamorous tasks, day in, day out. Some are very highly qualified and have chosen to work in the public sector, passing up opportunities to work more lucratively in the private sector. Traditionally, the pay-off has been job security and pensions. Those who have perhaps not been so lucky as to get many qualifications are often in thankless tasks for which they get very modest pay—cleaners, refuse collectors and so on. They receive low wages and meagre pensions. The average public sector pension of £5,600 and the average for local authority workers of £3,000 are far from the gold-plated myth peddled by the Conservative party and its friends in the media.

Back in 2007-08, there were tough negotiations on public workers’ pension schemes, and I am sure that I was not the only Member who received correspondence, particularly from teachers. The then Labour Government entered into dialogue and negotiation, however, and unions played their part responsibly, accepting the need to make public sector pensions sustainable. Changes were agreed. The deal negotiated with the previous Government in 2007 made costs stable, and the National Audit Office described it in the following way:

“The 2007-08 changes are likely to reduce costs to taxpayers of the pension schemes by £67bn over 50 years, with costs stabilising at around 1% of…GDP or 2% of public expenditure. This”

is “a significant achievement”. Before this Government made any changes at all, public sector pensions had both been reformed and made affordable.

I turn now to the division between the private and public sectors, which is a disgraceful way to approach this topic. Frankly, we are all involved in both, whether through family members or people in our communities. John Hannett, the general secretary of the Union of Shop, Distributive and Allied Workers—a union that operates entirely in the private sector—says that it supports the strikes:

“We support our colleagues in the public sector in their fight for fair and decent pensions and to protect the services which our members rely on.”

We all know that the real scandal is in private sector pensions. Sometimes we are told that the costs or the recession have meant that nine tenths of final salary pension schemes in the private sector, once the most popular arrangement, are now closed. The fact is, however, that the employers have realised that they can get out of their obligations to society and their employees, leaving the taxpayer to pick up the costs of supporting people in retirement.

One of the biggest dangers is that more people will opt out of pension arrangements. There are three main risks associated with that. First, if people earning less than the average are asked to contribute about £80 a month, they will face a terrible choice of either feeding and clothing their children now or paying towards a pension for their retirement. That will leave many short of a pension when they retire.

Secondly, that leaves a huge problem for the state, because of what it will have to pick up. We will be sitting on a ticking time bomb. With private sector pensions going and public sector workers opting out, a huge number of people will be totally reliant on the state in their old age.

Thirdly—a problem for the present day—if people are not contributing now, there will soon be a cash crisis in those pension pots, which is something I do not think has been fully addressed. There will be a present-day shortfall in the money available for paying out to the people who have paid in to their pension schemes. Those are very real problems. Imposing a 3% increase on people in this undemocratic and devastating way is completely unacceptable. It needs a total rethink, and the sooner, the better.

--- Later in debate ---

[Mr Jones]

I refer the hon. Gentleman to the comments of Lord Hutton, who pointed out that his commission felt that there was a rationale for short-term cost savings in recognition of a substantial, unanticipated increase in longevity. In practice, these savings can be realised only by increasing member contributions. To suggest that it is impossible to address this problem in any way other than by increasing contributions is frankly fallacious and deceitful, and the Opposition know that.

The hon. Member for Arfon and others asked what negotiations were taking place. It is important to put it on the record that my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Health has met the NHS unions today, and my right hon. Friend the Minister for the Cabinet Office is also meeting the civil service unions later today. Negotiations are indeed proceeding apace, and to suggest that they are not—as the hon. Member for Hayes and Harlington (John McDonnell) did—is wrong.

The hon. Member for Angus (Mr Weir) claimed that 27% of workers will leave public sector pension schemes as a result of increased contributions. The Government have set out that those earning less than £15,000 will see no contribution increase whatever, and those earning less than £21,000 will see a maximum increase of 1.5 percentage points by 2014-15.

[Nia Griffith]

Does the Minister understand that that £15,000 limit is the full-time equivalent salary? If a person works fewer hours and earns only £8,000, but on a salary that full-time would come out as £16,000, they will pay increased contributions?

[Mr Jones]

Of course, that is indeed the case, as it was under the proposals that the Labour Government put forward. The fact of the matter is that it will not be the case that 27% will leave pension schemes. In fact, the independent Office—