Trident

Neale Hanvey Excerpts

Friday 26th January 2024 Commons Chamber

[The Minister for Defence Procurement (James Cartlidge)]

I am grateful to the hon. Member for Kirkcaldy and Cowdenbeath (Neale Hanvey) for initiating this debate. We have had a number of exchanges on this matter including, for example, in Defence oral questions.

The key point is that every day since April 1969, there has been at least one nuclear-armed Royal Navy submarine at sea, helping to keep the United Kingdom safe—the whole of the United Kingdom. In January 1980, when the House debated the successor programme to Polaris, which led to Trident—the title of this debate—the Secretary of State for Defence, Lord Pym, boiled down the Government’s position to one essential point. While acknowledging the “horrendous” nature of nuclear weapons and regretting that we could not “disinvent” them, he concluded that Britain needed to be a nuclear power because of what it would contribute to NATO’s strategy of deterrence and, through that, to our own national security.

Essentially, that has been the position of every UK Government since then. The renewal of the nuclear deterrent was approved by an overwhelming majority of 355 votes in this House in 2016, and it remains this Government’s position today. In 1980 the debate was framed by the cold war, but in 2024 the threats facing our country have multiplied and become far more complex. The number of nuclear states has grown, while Putin’s aggression and intransigence have set back the prospect of nuclear disarmament more broadly. Russia still holds around 6,000 warheads, and we face a much more assertive, nuclear-armed China. North Korea remains hellbent on honing its nuclear capabilities at the expense of the wellbeing of its own people, while Iran has repeatedly violated its international nuclear obligations and has enriched uranium far beyond what it needs for civilian purposes.

Significantly, our competitors are investing in novel nuclear technologies, including new warfighting nuclear systems, to integrate into their military strategies and doctrines. If we measure the need for an effective nuclear deterrent by the number of nuclear-armed states overtly working against the UK’s national interest, it is clear that the need to deter has never been greater. Let us not forget that a credible nuclear capability is about more than merely countering nuclear threats; it is about deterring all of the most extreme threats to our nation. That is why the Government are investing in upgrading our nuclear infrastructure to support the next generation Dreadnought-class submarines and replacement warheads. These will be some of the most advanced nuclear systems ever built, which sends a clear message to any would-be adversary.

Four Dreadnought submarines will replace the Vanguard-class submarines that have maintained our nuclear deterrent since 1992. They will give us an independent, continuous at-sea nuclear deterrent well into the second half of the century, and progress is on track to deliver the first of the Dreadnought submarines into service in the early 2030s. At £31 billion, it is correct to say that the estimated cost of the programme is significant, but we cannot develop this type of world-leading capability on the cheap, and we must also weigh that against the terrible cost of war, which is what the nuclear deterrent deters from happening.

Not only will the programme keep us safe; it is fuelling economic growth around the country. The submarines are being built by BAE Systems in Barrow-in-Furness. They will be maintained by Babcock in Devonport and on the Clyde. Their nuclear reactors are designed and built by Rolls-Royce in Derby. Our nuclear warheads are designed, manufactured and maintained by the Atomic Weapons Establishment in Berkshire. Hundreds of companies form the network of supply chains, and the stationing of our submarines at His Majesty’s Naval Base Clyde will ensure that it remains one of the largest employment sites in Scotland, bringing significant benefits to the local economy. Directly and indirectly, the nuclear deterrent is responsible for thousands of jobs in Scotland.

In preparation for the delivery of Dreadnought, we are carrying out a £1.4 billion upgrade of our nuclear facilities at HMNB Clyde. We are committed to replacing our current nuclear warheads and are working with the US to refresh the Trident II D5 missile. [Interruption.] If the hon. Gentleman wishes to intervene, he is more than welcome to do so.

[Neale Hanvey]

I thank the Minister for unexpectedly allowing an intervention. He says that he is working with the US, but the reality is that the US controls the nuclear deterrent that the UK provides.

[James Cartlidge]

That is wholly erroneous. Yes, we have a very, very close working relationship with the United States. We recently celebrated the 60th anniversary of the Polaris agreement. With the United States we secured the freedom of Europe in the second world war, and with the United States we are continuing to secure the freedom of our United Kingdom by deterring the most significant threat that we could face.

I emphasise that while we continue to invest in our nuclear deterrent, the Government remain fully committed to the long-term goal of a world without nuclear weapons. As a country, we have a strong record on disarmament, having unilaterally reduced our nuclear forces significantly from their cold war peak. We now have the smallest nuclear warhead stockpile of the five nuclear weapons states recognised under the non-proliferation treaty, and we are the only state to have reduced its deterrent capability to a single nuclear weapons system. However, other states have not followed our example, and as we survey the dangers facing our world today, our assessment is that further unilateral disarmament would only undermine our security and that of our allies. Nevertheless, we will continue to see opportunities to advance multilateral disarmament under the framework of the non-proliferation treaty.

Our nuclear deterrent deters aggression and coercion and helps to preserve peace.

[Neale Hanvey]

I thank the Minister for giving way a final time. I will not take too much time, but I did express a number of specific concerns that relate to the people of Scotland and their concerns about hosting these weapons on their shores. The Minister has made the business case, albeit perhaps not the moral case, for hosting WMDs, but he has not responded to any of my concerns about hosting these weapons in Scotland. Will he commit to respond in writing and in detail to the points I have put to him today?

[James Cartlidge]

I did respond in detail to the written questions the hon. Gentleman tabled last May about those incidents, and the Secretary of State wrote to him about the allegations that were printed. We rejected them.

The hon. Gentleman asks about the moral case, and I have made the moral case: it is about peace, it is about deterrence. If he does not understand that, let me put on the record the fact that it is the policy of his party to withdraw from NATO, not just to disarm. Let us ask ourselves what greater folly there could be in the current international situation than for the United Kingdom to withdraw from NATO. How would the Kremlin react? What would the people of Ukraine think—the people we have done so much to help remain free?

Peace is not cheap. That is why we support our deterrent, whose existence has kept us and our allies safe for decades, and we remain fully committed to investing in it. Of course, we absolutely hope never to have to use our arsenal, but in our more dangerous world, I strongly agree with Lord Pym when he told this House, 44 years ago almost to the day, that irrespective of the nature of the threat we face, it is better to have “effective options” than accept defeat. Or, as I would put it sincerely, the best way to avoid a war is to deter it from happening in the first place.

Question put and agreed to.