Strip Searching of Children

Debate between Sarah Dines and Alex Cunningham

Tuesday 28th March 2023 Commons Chamber

[Miss Dines]

Let me highlight the statistics, which are correct. Seventy five per cent of those strip searched are 16 to 17-year-olds. Yes, they are still children, but I have added that information to show some balance. Very, very few eight-year-olds, with respect, have been strip searched, and that has to be in exceptional circumstances. However, I do take the report very seriously, and there will be a proper consideration of what can be done. There is always room for change. I, too, was concerned to read some of the facts in the report. The work that was done is very much valued, and I welcome it, because any criticism of the police is an opportunity to do better. We on the Conservative Benches are committed to do better rather than to grandstand on the issue of ages. I remind Members that 75% of those strip searched are over the age of 16 and 17. The Opposition must get a sense of proportion. Mistakes have been made. When the police act unlawfully we must step in, but we also need to allow the police to do their job lawfully.

[Alex Cunningham (Stockton North) (Lab)]

I am not surprised that the Minister is struggling this afternoon as she tries to defend the indefensible. Instead of doing that, can she tell us how she will ensure that children are protected from what could be termed child abuse? Did she really suggest that body cameras could be used during strip searches?

[Miss Dines]

It is child abuse when criminal gangs are allowed to use children to carry weapons and drugs. That is child abuse. As safeguarding Minister, I wish to save each and every one of those children. There will be times when the police have to do their job. As I have said previously, in about half of searches, something is found. There are occasions when the police go beyond their lawful powers, and they need to be called out when they do. The Government will seriously look at the recommendation to review PACE codes C and A, but any change will be based on the evidence, not on a blanket view that this should be outlawed or not. We on the Conservative Benches believe in doing things proportionately and carefully based on the evidence.

Fire Services: North-east England

Debate between Sarah Dines and Alex Cunningham

Wednesday 23rd November 2022 Westminster Hall

[Miss Dines]

I had several meetings about that. The fact of the matter was that we were sending much-needed surplus. I know from my experience—one would need to write to the present Fire Minister about this, as I am assisting him today—that there were many circumstances where even old equipment was streets ahead of what the Ukrainians had. They were extremely grateful, and the firefighters I met were tearful to have our old equipment, so I do not think we need to be so critical. We assisted them greatly and saved many lives. I spoke to people who spent weeks taking that equipment over. It was gratefully received. It was never rejected as being outdated, as far as I am aware.

I want to pay tribute to the firefighters at home who dealt with wildfires. As Fire Minister, I was able to visit scenes that required fire services—even one just outside my constituency, in the constituency of High Peak. In addition, fire and rescue services helped to ensure our public safety while the nation paid its respects to Her Majesty the late Queen Elizabeth II. Those efforts should be celebrated, but we still have further to go.

Along with Grenfell and the Manchester arena inquiries, the inspectorate’s state of fire and rescue reports fired the starting gun for reform. There is a clear and growing case for change. Fires and the reaction to them and other threats are growing and changing. Fire and rescue services, like all other sections of the public sector, need to respond to that. They are usually up for a challenge, and I have every confidence that they will perform well.

In May, the Government published a fire reform White Paper that consulted on our vision for reform, and we aim to publish the response to the consultation in due course. The public are rightly proud of our fire and rescue services, and right hon. and hon. Members have spoken eloquently of their experiences of hearing from professionals and constituents in this regard.

It is important that the services are encouraged to put the public first in everything they do. The Government have their part to play in ensuring that we support our fire and rescue services and that they are making the most of the tools and knowledge available to them. The White Paper has set out proposals that achieve that. Firefighters and fire staff do great work and deserve the gratitude and support of us all—I know that everyone present will agree on that.

Let me turn to some of the specific points made in the debate, starting with protection and prevention, to which the hon. Member for Washington and Sunderland West (Mrs Hodgson) referred. The Government recognised that additional capacity was required and have provided an additional £50 million. Since 2019-20, that money has been funded to assist increases in capacity and capability in protection teams, which has delivered an increase in the number of staff.

[Alex Cunningham]

In Cleveland, the fire and rescue service faces inflationary pressure of £145 million, and there is no chance at all of finding further cuts. Either we put the public and industry at risk or the fire authority goes bust. Which would the Minister prefer?

[Miss Dines]

There are many concerns in this regard. However, I have the utmost faith that local fire and rescue services will be able to work in a way that does not put the public at risk, so I do not accept the hon. Gentleman’s argument.

The Government have delivered an increase in the number of staff working in protection, and an increase in the skills and qualifications of those already there.

Remote Observation and Recording (Courts and Tribunals) Regulations 2022

Debate between Sarah Dines and Alex Cunningham

Tuesday 19th July 2022 General Committees

[Miss Dines]

As I mentioned earlier, under section 199 of the Police, Crime, Sentencing and Courts Act, it is an offence punishable by a fine of £1,000 and up to two years in prison if found to be a contempt. That is a high level of punishment for any unexpected forward transmission, which would be against the law. The courts take this extremely seriously. The hon. Member will probably recall from newspapers and the media that contempt of court has been dealt with extremely seriously by judges. I have no doubt that this would be dealt with in the same way. I emphasise that the measure is to create more open justice, but in a safe way, where there has been proper evaluation.

[Alex Cunningham]

May I invite the Minister to address the question about whether or what consultations took place with the various organisations outlined by her predecessor?

[Miss Dines]

I do not have chapter and verse on the consultations, but I am advised that there have been substantive consultation, including at a very high level. The judiciary and the chairmen of tribunals have been very much involved. We have seen from how things worked during coronavirus, it is possible and appropriate to police the arrangements as set out in the draft regulations.

Question put and agreed to.

Counter-Terrorism and Sentencing Bill (Sixth sitting)

Debate between Sarah Dines and Alex Cunningham

Committee stage & Committee Debate: 6th sitting: House of Commons
Thursday 2nd July 2020 Public Bill Committees

[Alex Cunningham]

We welcome this amendment in the name of the hon. Members of the Scottish National party, and we agree that the results of any polygraph must not be disclosed for use in a criminal matter. Put simply, they are far too unreliable to be used as evidence or an indicator of a person having committed a crime. We do not determine a verdict by the toss of a coin and Members will recollect the oral evidence given by Professor Acheson, who, in answer to a question about our operating regime for polygraph tests from the hon. Member for East Lothian, said:

“I must say I am not a great fan of the polygraph solution. Polygraphs are a very good way to demonstrate a physiological response to nervousness. Most people who take polygraphs are going to be nervous, so it is a very inexact science. I think it is probably slightly better than tossing a coin.”––[Official Report, Counter-terrorism and Sentencing Public Bill Committee, 30 June 2020; c. 80.]

We should not be using a method as unreliable as a polygraph to determine whether a person has committed a crime. So I join the hon. Member for East Lothian in asking the Minister to give assurances here and now that the use of polygraph testing for offenders released on licence will not become a stepping-stone towards the introduction of polygraph testing across the justice system.

As colleagues may have noticed, I have submitted a new clause on the issue of polygraphs so I shall reserve most of my comments for the stand part debate later today, but we do need some clarification and assurance that we are not moving in the direction of an unreliable method of fact-finding like polygraphs.

What knowledge and evidence do the Government have on the reliability of polygraph tests, and why are they intent on their use in this context? As Professor Acheson said in his oral evidence,

“Polygraphs are a very good way to demonstrate a physiological response to nervousness”—

I am aware that I am repeating myself—and I, for one, would certainly be nervous undertaking a polygraph even if I knew I had not committed a crime, which makes me question whether polygraphs provide anywhere near the necessary level of assurance. We need a much more robust system if we are to start making decisions around a person’s future. We are not entirely dismissive of the place of polygraphs or the potential role that they can play, but we would not want to see the burden of proof rely heavily, or even moderately, on a polygraph result.

I plan to go into further detail in later examination of the Bill, once we reach the new clauses, on the impact of polygraph licence conditions on those with protected characteristics. In the meantime, it would help if the Minister were able to clarify the Government’s position on polygraph tests, including plans for future use.

[Miss Sarah Dines (Derbyshire Dales) (Con)]

On a point of order, Mr Robertson. There was an unintentional mistake earlier, about Professor Acheson saying that the polygraph was only “slightly better” than the toss of a coin. Those who were here last week listening to the professor will remember—it is in the Hansard record at column 83—that I called him out on that. He said that I was “quite right” to do so and that it was a “useful” test. It is tricky, I know, when looking back on evidence on a hot afternoon. It was a mistake, I think.