Oral Answers to Questions

Mike Penning Excerpts

Monday 5th January 2015 Commons Chamber

[Mr Nicholas Brown (Newcastle upon Tyne East) (Lab)]

16. Whether her Department plans to devolve police oversight functions to city mayors outside London.

[The Minister for Policing, Criminal Justice and Victims (Mike Penning)]

With permission, Mr Speaker, I shall answer questions 2 and 16 together.

Police and crime commissioners have brought direct accountability and localism to policing in this country, and, as we have seen in London, incorporating the role of the PCC in mayoral devolution has worked really well, especially under this excellent London Mayor.

[Mr Speaker]

I have to say that I have received no request for the grouping of questions 2 and 16, but we will see what we can do if the Minister continues to smile nicely.

[John Pugh]

I thank the Minister for that response. Given the terms of the Manchester city deal, does he agree that police and crime commissioners could become surplus to requirements? Would not culling them result in useful savings?

[Mike Penning]

No; the police and crime commissioners are doing an excellent job. They bring accountability. The only bid to incorporate the PCC role at the moment is the bid from Manchester, and I look forward to seeing it working on the ground.

[Mr Nicholas Brown]

How will these arrangements work in the north-east of England, which has one economic zone—incorporating Durham, Northumberland and Tyne and Wear—but two police authorities and two police and crime commissioners? Does the Home Office propose to merge the police authorities and their commissioners or to transfer their functions to a new individual?

[Mike Penning]

It is entirely up to the local community to decide what it wants. If we look at other parts of the country, we can see that West Mercia and Warwickshire are working closely together. If the police authorities in the right hon. Gentleman’s area wanted to merge, they would need to put their business plan to us. It is not only the big cities that could come together; such proposals could involve rural areas as well.

[Mr John Spellar (Warley) (Lab)]

Does the Minister recognise that the police and crime commissioners can work only within the resources and policy frameworks that are set nationally? Will he take this opportunity to support community policing and to reject the ridiculous suggestion from Tom Winsor that the police should ignore offences such as shoplifting and antisocial behaviour?

[Mike Penning]

We will make sure that local communities decide what sort of policing goes on in their area, and PCCs have the role of making sure that is happening. There are excellent Labour and Conservative PCCs around the country, and I cannot understand why the Labour party wants to get rid of its own people who are doing a good job.

[Mr David Jones (Clwyd West) (Con)]

3. What steps she is taking to improve the approach of the police to working with people with mental health problems.

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[Douglas Carswell (Clacton) (UKIP)]

12. What plans her Department has to regionalise police forces in England and Wales.

[The Minister for Policing, Criminal Justice and Victims (Mike Penning)]

The Government have no plans to move away from the localism that local police forces give us. Localism is something for which the hon. Gentleman campaigned for many years.

[Douglas Carswell]

Does the Minister recognise that although there may be advantages to be gained by regionalisation, such as economies of scale, larger police forces could mean a greater distance between the public and the police and less local accountability?

[Mike Penning]

I am slightly confused, because the hon. Gentleman campaigned for the introduction of police and crime commissioners when he was a Conservative Member and sat on the Government Benches. Is he now saying that they should not be there? Perhaps it is just a UKIP policy: one day one thing, and the next day another. At the end of the day, local democracy means that local authorities can make decisions. If they want to amalgamate, they can submit a business plan to us. Manchester has done that, but it is the only one.

[Steve Baker (Wycombe) (Con)]

Would not regionalising policing mean either the abolition of PCCs or a multiplication of several times over in the size of their constituencies? Does the Minister agree that either course would be a terrible slap in the face for those who campaigned so hard for so long for the system we now have?

[Mike Penning]

There are many present in the Chamber—including, perhaps, one Opposition Member—who have campaigned for localism over many years and who passionately believe in it. PCCs give that to the community and I cannot understand why anybody would change their mind about them.

[Mr Philip Hollobone (Kettering) (Con)]

Proposals to merge Northamptonshire police with an east midlands police force, as advanced by the Labour party when it was in power, would have been disastrous for Northamptonshire. The present proposals from the police commissioner and the head of the local fire brigade to increasingly merge their operations make lot of sense on so many levels. Will my right hon. Friend encourage this?

[Mike Penning]

Not only will I encourage it, but I have seen it going on around the country. Taxpayers’ money needs to be spent efficiently and it must be done in a way that is right for the emergency services. I have seen that happen, and if it happens in my hon. Friend’s constituency then so be it, but it will be a local decision.

[Robert Flello (Stoke-on-Trent South) (Lab)]

15. What recent discussions she has had with the chief constable of Lincolnshire on the budget of the Lincolnshire police.

[The Minister for Policing, Criminal Justice and Victims (Mike Penning)]

The Home Secretary and I meet all the chief constables regularly and I personally met the chief constable of Lincolnshire very recently.

[Robert Flello]

With more than 8,000 front-line police officers out of 16,000 cut already, is not the Lincolnshire chief constable right to warn that the loss of a further 6,000 front-line officers, along with other cuts, will simply mean that police forces across the country will collapse? They will go and there will not be any need for PCCs because there will not be any forces.

[Mike Penning]

I am sure the residents and constituents of Stoke-on-Trent South will be interested to hear about the hon. Gentleman’s interest in Lincolnshire. At the end of the day, it is for Lincolnshire and its chief constable to decide what they want to do and we will support them in those decisions. They do not have to be about a reduction in police officers; actually, we have seen an increase in the number of police officers on the ground in Lincolnshire.

[Sir Edward Leigh (Gainsborough) (Con)]

I am surprised that my otherwise good friend the hon. Member for Stoke-on-Trent South (Robert Flello) is suddenly taking such an interest in the Lincolnshire constabulary. To put things in perspective, the reason our budgets have suffered for many years is the sparsity factor formula put in place by the previous Labour Government which transferred resources from rural authorities to places such as Stoke-on-Trent. Having said that, we have still managed to cut crime in Lincolnshire by 20% over five years.

[Mike Penning]

To be honest, I perfectly understand that any chief constable and PCC will campaign for extra money, but at the same time I cannot understand the sudden interest taken in Lincolnshire by the hon. Member for Stoke-on-Trent South (Robert Flello). When this Government came to power, 91% of police were on the front line; that figure is now 93%. My hon. Friend the Member for Gainsborough (Sir Edward Leigh) is absolutely right to say that there has been a 20% cut in crime in Lincolnshire.

[Jack Dromey (Birmingham, Erdington) (Lab)]

Like many other chief constables around the country, the chief constable of an efficient and effective police service in Lincolnshire has made it clear that the Government’s proposed cuts will see meaningful neighbourhood policing ceased; response times get longer; officer safety put at risk; the ability to investigate historical child sex exploitation cases limited; and public confidence in policing severely eroded. Is he right to say that and is it right for the Home Secretary to spend £50 million on next year’s PCC elections when what the public want is for that money to be invested in front-line policing?

[Mike Penning]

I do not recognise the figure of £50 million, but it is not unlike the Labour party to make up figures as it goes along. At the end of the day, Members either believe in localism or they do not, and running down the police of this country, as the Opposition do regularly, is not the answer. We need to support our police, make sure we can get the austerity through and make sure that more police are on the front line. That is what we are doing.

[Duncan Hames (Chippenham) (LD)]

18. What assessment she has made of the implications for her policies of the findings of the investigation by Chief Constable Mick Creedon into the activities of the special demonstration squad.

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[Andrew Rosindell (Romford) (Con)]

T2. Will the Minister join me in congratulating the Metropolitan police on a 14% reduction in crime over the past five years, and a 4% reduction in the last year alone? Does he agree that outer-London boroughs such as Havering need resources, as well as central London?

[The Minister for Policing, Criminal Justice and Victims (Mike Penning)]

I congratulate the Metropolitan police on their excellent work—indeed, I was on patrol with them fairly recently and I know well the part of the world that my hon. Friend represents. Not only has crime fallen by 15%, but that has been done by increasing the amount of police on the front line from 86% to 91%. That is something we should all be proud of.

[Mr Jim Cunningham (Coventry South) (Lab)]

T3. A recent study by the university of Bedfordshire and Victim Support found that one third of 11 to 17-year-olds have suffered physical violence in the past year. Will the Minister make it a priority to ensure that young people are taught how to report crimes and are fully supported throughout the process?

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[Alex Cunningham (Stockton North) (Lab)]

T5. There has been a net loss of 293 police officers from the Cleveland police service since 2010, and our police commissioner says that the budget has been cut by another 5.1%, which could further jeopardise public safety. Does the Home Secretary agree that such losses and cuts are the reasons behind the drop in confidence in policing for the first time in a decade?

[Mike Penning]

Crime in Cleveland has dropped by 16% in the past four and a half years, and by another 2% this year. Cleveland police should be congratulated, not run down.

[Miss Anne McIntosh (Thirsk and Malton) (Con)]

T7. Does the Home Secretary share my concern at the rise in rural crime, some of it organised, some of it opportunistic? Will she take this opportunity to make rural crime a target for police activity, so that action is taken to stamp it out?

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[Sir Bob Russell (Colchester) (LD)]

Drones have been a feature of this place for generations, but drones of the 21st century—unmanned aerial vehicles that provide a growing security threat, invasions of privacy and potentially criminal activity—are a matter of great concern. Does the Home Secretary agree that the current regulations need to be reviewed from her Department’s perspective?

[Mike Penning]

The hon. Gentleman raises an important issue. We continue to keep a close eye on the regulations. I would not say that they are being reviewed, but we will look at whether they need to be addressed in view of that current threat.

[Paul Blomfield (Sheffield Central) (Lab)]

Let me give the Home Secretary another chance to answer the question that she has failed to answer so far. When Sir James Dyson describes her plans to further restrict post-study work opportunities as a short-sighted attempt to win votes at the expense of the economic interests of the UK, it is a serious matter. Will she think again?

[Alistair Burt (North East Bedfordshire) (Con)]

I recently met the chief officer of the special constabulary in Bedfordshire, Mr Wayne Humberstone, who is leading a growing force that is about to start operating out of a rural police station in Riseley in my constituency. Will my hon. Friend take this opportunity to stress again the importance of the special constabulary to effective policing and to encourage employers to allow more employees to make such a contribution to society?

[Mike Penning]

All hon. Members should encourage employers in their constituencies to allow people who work for them to become specials and serve their community. I pay tribute to the work that has been done in Bedford. The specials in my constituency of Hemel Hempstead do a fantastic job and we should all encourage people to become specials.