Armed Forces Commissioner Bill (Third sitting)

Michelle Scrogham Excerpts

Committee stage
Thursday 12th December 2024 Public Bill Committees

[Mr Francois]

The hon. Lady is right. The amendment says that the commissioner should make the appointment; I hope we have given the rationale for why we believe that is important. What sort of KC the commissioner employed, and how often they used them, would be a matter for the commissioner: they would still have some discretion and, as has been intimated, there are KCs and KCs.

But the principle of the amendment is that the commissioner should have access to senior legal advice because lawfare is becoming more and more of an issue for armed forces personnel. For the sake of brevity, I will not read into the record a very good article that appeared in The Spectator about why people are leaving the Special Air Service because of the issue. It is a problem for retention in the armed forces, particularly in certain units, and this is an attempt to acknowledge that.

[Michelle Scrogham (Barrow and Furness) (Lab)]

To refer back to what my hon. Friend the Member for Portsmouth North said, the amendment does say that the commissioner’s staff “must” include a King’s counsel. That would effectively tie the hands of the commissioner, firmly setting that budget. I would much rather that they had flexibility, so that they could choose who they wanted to serve within their staff; should they need a KC, they would be very welcome to get one. Including that they “must” would eat that budget, which could be used elsewhere if needed.

[Mr Francois]

I understand the hon. Lady’s question, and I do not want to get into an “angels on a pinhead” argument, but that member of staff could be part-time. It could be that on the staff of the commissioner is a qualified KC, but only brought into action when there is a specific legal aspect to be examined—they would not necessarily have to sit in their office five days a week waiting for a case to come in. If there was no work, then they would not necessarily be employed.

I accept that perhaps we should have put the words “part or full-time” into the amendment, but the key thing is that the commissioner would have access to a King’s counsel, even on a part-time basis, to deal with complaints that have a specific legal aspect, including aspects of lawfare. We did not mandate in the amendment that it had to be a full-time role.

Armed Forces Commissioner Bill (First sitting)

Michelle Scrogham Excerpts

Committee stage
Tuesday 10th December 2024 Public Bill Committees

[Amanda Martin]

Q Thank you for your service and for doing what seems to be a great job in the circumstances. You alluded to the fact that this has been a long time coming, that you have been pushing for this and that there had previously been no backlog. The aim of the new Bill is to improve service licence conditions for service personnel. I have spoken to a number of them in my Portsmouth constituency, and one of the concerns, which you echoed, is that there seems to be a delta between the people who come forward and the things that happen. How do you see a change in the commissioner role improving things for those who come forward? Some service personnel say that they still have concerns around the trust and whether it will affect their career if they make a complaint.

Mariette Hughes: Trust and confidence in the service complaints system is something that we have been driving hard as SCOAF, and that work would continue. This is what I think is interesting about the commissioner role. When we do outreach visits, I sit down and do focus groups with service personnel, where I kick all the chain of command out of the room and get them to tell me what they actually feel and experience. What is really interesting for me is that in those conversations, a number of issues, frustrations, grumbles and gripes are raised, and they are not the sorts of things that normally become service complaints, because to the individual they do not feel big enough or they do not feel that they have been personally wronged—it is just part and parcel of their service life—or they do not think that raising a service complaint will change it. We have those conversations because it relates to service complaints. It talks about that mental resilience, the things they are putting up with that chip away and then lead them to situations where they feel they have to complain.

Under the commissioner’s powers, you would be able to raise those issues and put those into reports that can be laid in the House and brought into the light—all the issues that people are telling us about, such as their accommodation or concerns around food or policies that affect their families. At the moment, I am gathering that information as good background for service complaints, but the commissioner role would be able to take that forward and say, “This is affecting all three services” or “Actually, it is affecting this service more than the other.” So this really rich information will help promote those welfare things that currently do not have enough light shining on them.

[Michelle Scrogham (Barrow and Furness) (Lab)]

Can I ask for your views on the German armed forces commissioner? Obviously, this measure has been modelled on that.

Mariette Hughes: You can, of course. I know Dr Eva Högl quite well. We are both members of the International Conference of Ombuds Institutions for the Armed Forces, which is a mouthful, so I will say ICOAF. We have a conference every year. She is an absolutely incredible person and has done really good things with that office. It is an interesting model for this to be based on. There are some differences that we have to be alive to. The key one for me—apologies if this comes up later—is around the terminology. Dr Högl is the Commissioner for the Armed Forces. Germany does not have a fully established ombudsman scheme in the same way that the UK does. We have 22 established schemes under the Ombudsman Association. On Eva’s website, she describes herself as “the ombudsman for the armed forces”. It is simply that the title “parliamentary commissioner” fits with their legal framework.

There are also some interesting differences. Eva has had these powers for a long time and uses them very well. However, she does not have the oversight of service complaints that I have, so this would be an extended remit compared with the German model. It is brilliant to draw inspiration from it. Being members of those communities together, we are always looking at best practice in other countries. There are necessarily some differences in this country, but it is certainly a good starting point.

[Michelle Scrogham]

Q Do you think the German model will translate to the UK?

Mariette Hughes: I think we have to build our own model; we have to look at what our key issues are. Germany is a different landscape and a different framework and has been operating for a huge number of years. We cannot just pick it up and start doing things the way they do. We need to start with what our key focuses are and how we think we can have the most impact and scale up operations, and go from that.

We might end up looking at things slightly differently. A lot of Dr Högl’s focus is on investment in defence and pushing for bigger budgets. Does that necessarily tie in with what we are seeing about the welfare of service personnel? There may be issues that cross over into that, but we would have a slightly different focus from the German parliamentary commissioner.

[Michelle Scrogham]

Q What should we be learning from the German model to make improvements here?

Mariette Hughes: For me, the best thing from the German model that I would like us to learn from and take forward is the voice that Dr Högl has within the German Parliament. She has a permanent seat; she sits in all the sessions. I am not saying that the commissioner should have that, but they should certainly have the ability to lay reports directly or have them laid in the House so that more focus is placed on this. There is absolutely no point having all this access and information and creating the reports if they do not go anywhere and nobody talks about them. That level of parliamentary oversight and visibility is what we should mirror from the German system.

[Pam Cox (Colchester) (Lab)]

Q Thank you for joining us. The Ombudsman Association has questioned the use of the term “commissioner” in relation to this role, on the grounds that it is usually used for bodies with less influence. What are your views on that?

Mariette Hughes: I am also a board member of the Ombudsman Association. You will not be surprised to know that my views align very closely with those of the chair of the Ombudsman Association. I understand why we are using the word “commissioner”, based on the fact that we were mirroring the German system, but as set out in the letter from the chair, the Cabinet guidance is very clear that “ombudsman” is the gold standard.

As I have mentioned, we have 22 established schemes; we have a very wide network of ombudsmen. Within my office, we have spent a lot of time trying to get people to understand the value of an ombudsman, what it is and what it does. Having been the service complaints commissioner previously, I worry that going back towards “commissioner”—going from service complaints commissioner to service complaints ombudsman to armed forces commissioner—is a step back. It feels like if we are doing that, is the next step not armed forces ombudsman? Do we not just go there straightaway?

Armed Forces Commissioner Bill (Second sitting)

Michelle Scrogham Excerpts

Committee stage
Tuesday 10th December 2024 Public Bill Committees

[Mr Francois]

If you are saying that the situation has got a bit better, that is encouraging, but I think you are also implying that there is more work to be done. We might want to explore that on Thursday under the “General service welfare” part of the Bill.

[Michelle Scrogham (Barrow and Furness) (Lab)]

Q Do you have any concerns about the transition from the ombudsman to the new commissioner?

Abby Dryden: I do not have any specific concerns about that. I would generally have concerns about any change in process, as the shortcomings of a process can sometimes be identified quite easily, but it can be quite difficult to create something in its place that functions effectively from the start. I would just be concerned about the transition, but I would not have any specific concerns.

[Michelle Scrogham]

Q Do you think anything is needed to ensure a successful handover?

Abby Dryden: Numerous things are probably needed to ensure success. I cannot comment on those things directly, as I do not have enough experience to comment reasonably.

[David Reed (Exmouth and Exeter East) (Con)]

Q Thank you for being with us today. I should imagine that many of the service personnel you deal with might be physically incapacitated or not of sound mind to be able to raise service complaints of their own accord. Would it be possible to explain the current process you have to raise those issues with the ombudsman? Under the Bill, can you see the process changing with a new commissioner?

Abby Dryden: Any process we have to support the raising of complaints would usually occur, and usually quite effectively occur, through the existing chain of command. In the 12 years that I have worked for the Defence Medical Welfare Service, I have not been involved in an issue where we have been required to go to the ombudsman. In that sense, you could say that the current system is working reasonably effectively. Equally, you could say that there are probably issues that require further identification or require the system to be more easily accessible, but usually the kinds of issues we deal with are things that can be resolved by the chain of command, which has a vested interest in resolving issues presented to us for its personnel and is keen to do so.

--- Later in debate ---

[Pam Cox]

Q Thank you for joining us this afternoon. One of the key functions of the new commissioner will be to promote

“the welfare of persons subject to service law and”—

this is a key phrase—“relevant family members”. That is left deliberately broad. What is your view on how a relevant family member might be defined?

Collette Musgrave: Where to start? This is a problem that we have grappled with for many years. The Army Families Federation is 42 years old, and what a family member looked like back then is very different from what a family member looks like now.

Maintaining that flexibility about what a family member is has been absolutely key for us in being able to properly support families. It may very well be a spouse or civil partner, or it may be a child. It may be a grandparent, if they were involved in caring for or supporting the family in any way. It may be an aunt or uncle. Quite frankly, with many of the people we deal with, some of whom have had quite challenging and difficult upbringings, it may be that they regard their wider friendship network as their family and their support network. It is a real challenge sometimes for us as an organisation to delineate and work this out so that we can best support the individual or the family in question.

Clearly, when it comes to the provision of defence processes and services, there are quite clear rules and regulations about who is in scope. My organisation and I personally might take issue with some of those, but none the less they are quite clearly laid out. One of the key difficulties that families face is often navigating that alongside their expectations, and alongside how wider society and some of the statutory external bodies I referred to earlier regard a family. It is that level of confusion that this process will have to work through quite quickly, referring back to Maria’s point about expectation management.

I note that in the debate and the questions in the House there were quite a lot of comments about bereaved families. There has been a significant amount of work over the last couple of years on identifying and supporting bereaved families, and meeting their actual needs rather than their perceived needs. We would certainly like to see bereaved families being addressed in some way within the scope of the Armed Forces Commissioner’s activities.

That would probably be something of a challenge, because the needs and requirements of a family when they are initially bereaved can be quite different from those of a bereaved family 10 or 20 years down the line. That would most definitely be something of a challenge for the Armed Forces Commissioner to work through. Nevertheless, we feel quite strongly that bereaved families should be included in the scope of the definition of families. Beyond that, it is not straightforward. We would like to see the broadest possible definition, because that is what service personnel and their families need, and it should be responsive to their needs and not to what happens to be in the relevant JSP.

Maria Lyle: I recognise that in the legislation, there may need to be—I do not know; I am not responsible for passing this Bill—a clause about what is applicable overseas and in the UK regarding families, for example, and how they are defined and dealt with.

I will give a live example of why it is important to keep the definition as broad as possible. At the moment, adult children are no longer defined as “dependents”, but many families talk to us about the needs of their young adult children who cannot access bases because they can no longer get a dependent’s pass, perhaps because they are at university or have left university. These days, of course, it is really hard for a young person to get accommodation, so they often stay at home sharing married quarters in a way that they would not have done 10 or 20 years ago. It is that sort of thing—the changing shape of family—and this Bill is an opportunity to allow some of those issues to be voiced and made relevant to an Armed Forces Commissioner.

Sarah Clewes: A family may also constitute a couple who have chosen not to have children or who cannot have children. We may think of them as a couple, but actually they are a family, because they are a couple. Are they within or without scope? It is important to consider every single differing family dynamic so that people are not excluded.

[Michelle Scrogham]

Q How do you envisage this Bill improving service life? You mentioned the importance of communications and getting the information to service personnel. How do you see your role in that?

Maria Lyle: I was thinking about that element beforehand. It depends on how the process pans out, in terms of how strategic or how tactical the role of the commissioner’s office is. We want this Bill to be a really helpful change in how military families and personnel are supported, so we want there to be as useful a working relationship with the Armed Forces Commissioner as possible.

For example, we would be really keen to share with the commissioner on a regular basis the information and evidence that we receive all year. There is a rich pattern of data across the sector—the third sector that deals with families—that could be brought to bear in terms of identifying exactly where the big issues are that the Armed Forces Commissioner could shine a light on, perhaps leaning in with Government Departments.

The change in this Bill is the report to Parliament. The armed forces covenant also provides for a report to Parliament every year. That is not necessarily independent; it is Government reporting on themselves. The legislation gives a layer of independence. If we can use this mechanism and get behind it to help the commissioner to have the evidence they need to enact change, that is certainly how we see our role and work with the commissioner’s office.

Sarah Clewes: Just to add to that, I think evidence is absolutely key. If we were to go for a scattergun approach and ask several charities, they would have an opinion. However, is that helpful? The families federations work very hard to provide evidence so that we can find the themes and find out what matters most. That is not to say that we discount other things that may be in the margin, but I think it is so important to have an evidence base on which to make decisions. Otherwise we could just go for a scattergun approach, tie ourselves up in knots and jump on things that perhaps are important to some, but are they as important for others? We need a certain amount of prioritisation, and that is exactly what we have been doing for a number of years. The opportunity to build on that and funnel some of the information upwards for decision making is most welcome.

Collette Musgrave: Just to build on my colleagues’ comments, I think many—not all, but many—of the issues that face service personnel and their families, and that impact positively or negatively on their decisions about whether to join and stay in the armed forces, are fairly well known and have been looked at in the past from a number of angles. As Sarah and Maria say, there is a rich level of evidence already in place. It is a question of using that, but really trying to understand the scale and depth of the issues.

The issues are all well known, and there are many of us who will get behind a certain one at a certain time, or there will be an external event that prompts examination. But it is a question of understanding, across that broad range, which ones are really impacting rather than being an irritation. What is making a real difference, and what is the depth and scale? Getting in behind those issues is where the Armed Forces Commissioner could bring real value. Galvanising all the various bodies externally, and across defence and across Government, to co-ordinate and co-operate to do that could be quite a significant and positive change.

[David Reed]

Q This question is to Sarah. You have mentioned the continuity of education allowance—CEA. This is a hot topic; the rates have just been released, and it is clear that the rates are not going to be enough to allow service personnel to keep their kids in certain schools. Is there a fear that in the transition from ombudsman to commissioner, such issues might fall through the cracks in the interim? What do you think can be done to make sure that their voices are heard as quickly as possible, because this issue is going to play out in the coming months?

Sarah Clewes: That is a really good question. It is a case of dealing with the frustration. As I mentioned, the issue is the inability to make an informed choice. If people are given the information that they need, they can decide which way to go, but when they do not have that information or it comes late, they feel let down again. It is an erosion of the offer; they are not feeling looked after.

This is in the context of busy serving personnel who are not at home for long periods of time to do admin. That is often left to the spouse, who cannot make the decisions because they, too, do not have the information that they require. Again, this is all about feeling valued and feeling as though, if it is part of the offer, there should be a slick process whereby armed forces personnel have been considered and can get the information that they need to look after their children and give them the continuity of education that they deserve.

It is about the package and making people feel valued. It is also about being mindful that people are very busy when deployed on a ship or a submarine, which is the case for the people that we are looking after. Of course, the Royal Marines’ operational tempo is just constant, so there is not time. If there is time to be at home and do things such as admin for the CEA or whatever, the processes need to be really slick.

We have had instances of people coming to us and saying, “This is just too tricky; it’s too difficult. I’ve tried this, and I’ve tried to speak to that person, and in the end it’s too difficult. Do you know what? I’m going to leave because I’ve had enough. It’s too difficult.” That is where we will come in and say, “Surely you must be able to speak to a human being who understands your frustration and who can get this over the line, so that you can go and deploy without being distracted.” A lot of the time, it falls back to the charity sector to help in those ways. Is that right? I do not know, but it is becoming more prevalent that the charities will pick things up, just to take away a bit of the pain. It really should not be that painful. I am not sure if that answers the question, but slick processes, information and feeling valued are key.

--- Later in debate ---

[Mr Francois]

That is pretty clear, so thank you for clarifying. I will stop there because I know you have only limited time for your panel and others will want to ask questions.

[Michelle Scrogham]

Q It has all gone very quiet on the national veterans commissioner. All the devolved Governments have one; when will we get one here?

Luke Pollard: The Minister for Veterans and People has been looking at the system and will be taking steps to see what the most appropriate representation or system to put in place is. We inherited a system that has national veterans commissioners in some locations, but not all. Al Carns will look at that in due course.

We have deliberately not specified the interaction between any established commissioner for veterans or veterans group and the commissioner in the Bill, because we want the Armed Forces Commissioner to make an independent judgment. My expectation, however, is that there would be regular meetings between the commissioner and the variety of stakeholder groups that operate in the wider armed forces community, partly to check in on issues, but also, importantly, to check in on the progress of their recommendations and how they are being implemented.

A key part of this process is shining a spotlight on an issue, and in my mind it is not sufficient to say, “Here is an issue,” and just present it to Parliament. There needs to be an understanding of what happens next with it, and that is where that interaction would probably be most found.

[Michelle Scrogham]

Q The commissioner can access unannounced any of the sites within the UK, but the Secretary of State has the power to restrict access. How will that work in practice?

Luke Pollard: When the commissioner’s office is stood up, there will be a ways of working agreement between the commissioner and the single services about how things work. I am not expecting the Armed Forces Commissioner to use their unannounced powers frequently. If you look at the German model, the armed forces commissioner in Germany spends about a third of her year undertaking visits, of which nearly all are planned. The ability to make an unannounced visit in the commissioner’s toolbox makes those powers even more prominent, because if an issue is reaching a certain threshold, they can decide to make an unannounced visit.

The powers on national security that we have included in the Bill come from the importance of making sure that in the proper exercising of their duties, the commissioner is focusing on general service welfare matters. What we do not want to see the commissioner doing, as you heard when the current SCOAF presented earlier, is looking at the secret squirrel elements. I do not want them looking into the intelligence services or secret squirrel locations, such as the operational design of missions. That all sits outside their remit; their remit is solely focused on general service welfare. The ability to define that via secondary legislation is a prudent and proportionate power that we have in the Bill. I suspect what will actually happen in most cases is, once the secondary legislation that details that has been published, a ways of working approach will be established.

I cannot really imagine any Armed Forces Commissioner having a remit or operations that step outside that clearly defined general service welfare lane, but if there are concerns, there is also a power in the Bill for the Secretary of State to exercise that caution on visits, especially if there is a national security consideration. We would not expect that, given the welfare focus, but it is a proportionate safeguarding power, just in case.

[Lincoln Jopp]

Q I am obliged to Maria Lyle for highlighting the issue about whether the commissioner will be a call centre or will produce big, thematic reports. The explanatory note to the Bill says:

“This Bill will establish an independent Commissioner to serve as a direct point of contact for Armed Forces personnel and their families.”

However, I read the Bill and it does not do that. It takes on the ombudsman’s powers—that is chunk one—but only for service complaints. If someone has a housing problem, it is rarely going to be subject to a service complaint; it will go up the housing route. The second chunk is about more general thematic investigations. The Bill does those two things, but I do not think it provides a place for people to go day to day when they have a problem, because that gets into the jurisdictions of local authorities and local education authorities—there is a series of routes. If you are telling us that we are going to change the service complaints procedure so that—[Interruption.]

Oral Answers to Questions

Michelle Scrogham Excerpts

Monday 14th October 2024 Commons Chamber

[John Healey]

I feel more confident in this job than I did when I was in my previous job. I recently attended the US-led gathering of almost 50 countries in Ramstein, where they made a long-term commitment to supporting Ukraine now and into the future. That gave me confidence that, with work, we can play a leading role in helping that coalition to hold together, and in getting NATO to do more to co-ordinate action and ensure that we get support behind Ukraine, so that it prevails and Putin loses.

[Michelle Scrogham (Barrow and Furness) (Lab)]

4. What recent assessment he has made of the adequacy of progress on the AUKUS strategic partnership.

[Chris McDonald (Stockton North) (Lab)]

19. What recent assessment he has made of the adequacy of progress on the AUKUS strategic partnership.

[The Minister for the Armed Forces (Luke Pollard)]

The UK is fully committed to the AUKUS partnership. On 26 September, the Secretary of State hosted the first AUKUS Defence Ministers’ meeting outside the US. During that discussion, he provided direction and guidance to accelerate our taking advantage of the opportunities that this landmark partnership presents to us. I refer Members to the Defence Ministers’ meeting joint communication for more details on progress.

[Michelle Scrogham]

The Secretary of State already knows how proud we are in Barrow and Furness to be building our Astute and Dreadnought submarines, and to be part of the AUKUS programme. I know from our discussions that this Government understand that we need a cross-departmental approach to support the delivery of the AUKUS deal in Barrow and Furness. Will he comment on the importance of that broad approach, which aims to make Barrow an even better place in which to live, work and raise a family, and will he meet me to discuss that further?

[Luke Pollard]

I thank my hon. Friend for her question. Both the Secretary of State and I have visited Barrow to see not only the incredible innovation in the shipyard there, but the amazing workforce who are putting together the nuclear submarines. As my hon. Friend knows, the Government are indeed working across Departments, and with the local council and BAE Systems, to invest heavily not only in the development of the shipyard and the submarine facilities, but in the community that they need. I would be very happy to meet her and colleagues to discuss this issue further.