Great British Energy Bill (Third sitting)

Michael Shanks Excerpts

Committee stage
Thursday 10th October 2024 Public Bill Committees

[The Chair]

Is anyone up for a bit of a debate on this?

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Energy Security and Net Zero (Michael Shanks)]

Good morning, everyone. It is a pleasure to be back in Committee. I will begin by addressing amendment 8, tabled by the hon. Member for South Cambridgeshire, before moving on to why clause 1 should stand part of the Bill.

The amendment seeks to specify the time within which Great British Energy will set out its priorities. For reasons I shall set out, we will not support it. First, though, it is important to say that the Government have already moved at pace on a range of energy-related matters, but particularly on Great British Energy. We have shown very quickly, in not quite yet 100 days in office, that we are moving forward to set up Great British Energy, and there will be no further delays in doing so. It is in our interests—indeed, as the hon. Member rightly said, it is in all our interests—that we move quickly on setting it up.

We have said clearly that we want Great British Energy to deliver a publicly owned, operationally independent energy company, and we are here today, within 100 days of Labour forming a Government, to make that happen. That work will continue. With the progress we have already made, and with a commitment that we want to quickly get Great British Energy delivering what we are setting it up to deliver—it is not at all in our interests to drag our feet—there is really no need for a specific timeline. I therefore hope that the hon. Member will not press her amendment to a vote.

Clause 1 allows the Secretary of State to designate a company as Great British Energy. Legislation often provides for a company that is set up under the Companies Act 2006 to be designated for certain statutory purposes, especially when substantial amounts of public money are involved, or where the company is being asked to fulfil a particularly important role. A recent example from the previous Government is the legislation on the UK Infrastructure Bank, which includes a similar provision.

Clause 1 simply sets out in detail the processes and arrangements to allow the Secretary of State to designate a company as Great British Energy. Perhaps most importantly, the clause allows Great British Energy to be founded as a publicly owned company, which gets to the heart of what this Government are committed to doing: giving the public a stake in Great British Energy. The clause protects the principle of public ownership by making explicit that the company would terminate if it ceased to be wholly owned by the Crown. I therefore commend clause 1 to the Committee.

[Stephen Flynn (Aberdeen South) (SNP)]

I rise to speak briefly to new clause 1, which is grouped with amendment 8 and clause 1. It is very straightforward. It will be for Government Members to consider whether it is appropriate for the House of Commons to be in full knowledge and understanding of what the Government seek to do on energy efficiency. They must also consider whether the steps that the Government take in that regard should be reported to this House to ensure that we are fully abreast of the progress that the Government hope to make and how that meets the promises that they as individuals made to their constituents prior to the election. We as parliamentarians can collectively hold the Government to account on those promises and ambitions.

In discussions on further amendments, we will talk in more detail about the promises that were made, and hopefully the Government might be minded to agree to include some of those promises in the Bill. For now, though, I think it worth while for Members to consider the role that this Parliament plays in scrutinising this Government in a constructive fashion.

[Pippa Heylings]

No one can deny that, as the Minister said, we have seen huge progress coming through immediately, and commitment from the Government. I thought we would have heard from the oral evidence that certainty is critical, and therefore that giving a deadline and a timeframe in which people and businesses could expect to see the statement would be good reassurance. As the right hon. Member for Aberdeen South indicated, it would also be good to have some kind of revision. I hear from the Minister that the Government will not accept the amendment, so I will not press it to a vote, but it should be considered.

[Michael Shanks]

On the hon. Lady’s point, I reiterate our absolute commitment to move faster—frankly, far faster than in six months—to deliver the statement of strategic priorities. We will talk about that later in relation to further amendments.

On the point from the right hon. Member for Aberdeen South, we do not think the theme of the new clause is particularly important in this part of the Bill. It is important, of course, that the aim of Great British Energy is to be part of what will deliver cheaper bills for all, and efficiency, but it is only part of the story. Of course, in the election campaign we made it clear that across Government—yes, through Great British Energy, but also through a series of other measures, including our reforms to planning and including a lot of areas on which I am working closely with his colleagues in the Scottish Government to expedite progress—we will deliver cheaper bills.

The right hon. Gentleman must acknowledge, despite his not supporting Great British Energy so far—I hope that he and his colleagues will change their minds when the Bill comes back—that on this point it is in fact an important vehicle. [Interruption.] He looks as if he does not agree with what I said. He did not vote for the Bill on Second Reading, so I took it from that that he did not support it. It is important that he recognises that Great British Energy has a really important part to play in delivering what I have set out. His colleagues in the Scottish Government certainly think so, which is why we have been working so closely together on the matter.

[Stephen Flynn]

I am sure that the Minister, as an esteemed and well-versed parliamentarian, will understand that the voting system in this House means that should a Member choose not to vote in favour of something, that does not mean that they are against it, as he is outlining. I would hate for him to inadvertently suggest to the public that something is the case when it is not the case. As he knows, I of course welcome the set-up of GB Energy, but what I want to see is the scrutiny that the new clause would obviously provide.

[Michael Shanks]

I am delighted to hear the right hon. Gentleman’s wholehearted support for Great British Energy. That is fantastic. I did not know that, so that is wonderful, and I thank him for that great support. It has really cheered my whole day, in fact, that I now have his support. Things can only get better, as we say.

On the right hon. Gentleman’s specific point about efficiency measures, we are already taking a number of steps on that matter in other areas. For example, our warm homes plan will transform homes across the country, making energy in individual homes cleaner and cheaper to run. We announced a local grants programme to support that. Of course, that does not apply in Scotland, where such work is devolved. I think the Scottish Government could probably do more in this policy area. The Scottish Government have made significant budget cuts to projects—£133 million was taken out of energy efficiency measures in 2022 and 2023—so I think work could be done across the board on the matter.

On the point about updating Parliament, it is really important that we are talking about a publicly owned energy company. It will be independent of Government, but of course it will be responsible to Parliament in the way that any other independent companies wholly owned by the Secretary of State are. A copy of the strategic priorities will be laid before Parliament. Any directions given to Great British Energy by the Secretary of State will be laid before Parliament. Of course, there are already several other mechanisms that the right hon. Member for Aberdeen South, as an extremely well-versed parliamentarian—far more so than I am—knows he can avail himself of.

[Andrew Bowie (West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine) (Con)]

In respect of the point that the Minister has just made, and also the point that he made to the hon. Member for South Cambridgeshire, who represents the Liberal Democrats, he said that the strategic priorities would be laid before Parliament. Does he have a timescale for that? He said it would be far quicker than six months, so are we talking about before Christmas? Are we talking about before the November recess? Does he have in mind a date when the strategic priorities may be laid before Parliament?

[Michael Shanks]

If the hon. Gentleman is proposing that the Bill will be through Parliament by Christmas, that would be great—we could move forward. Of course, we need the Bill to have Royal Assent before we can move forward. I welcome his co-operation on making sure that it has a swift passage through the House of Lords and the Commons. We will move as quickly as possible. It is in no one’s interest, let alone that of a Government who are moving as quickly as possible to deliver this, for it to be delayed any further.

Finally, the requirement in new clause 1, tabled by the right hon. Member for Aberdeen South, to report to Parliament on energy efficiency measures is unnecessary because there are already many mechanisms for that. We have been consistently clear that Great British Energy will be operationally independent. I hope that the right hon. Gentleman will therefore not press his new clause to a vote.

[Pippa Heylings]

I beg to ask leave to withdraw the amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Clause 1 ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Clause 2

Crown status

Question proposed, That the clause stand part of the Bill.

[Michael Shanks]

We are making great progress—this will be a good day. Clause 2 is straightforward. It ensures that Great British Energy will serve the public as an independent company and operate in the same way as any other UK company, that it will not have any special status, immunity or privilege normally associated with the Crown, and that its property will not be seen as property of the Crown. It will be subject to exactly the same legal requirements as all other companies. That is in line with the vision we had for Great British Energy from the beginning: that it should be operationally independent and an agile market player. We will ensure that it remains that way.

Question put and agreed to.

Clause 2 accordingly ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Clause 3

Objects

[Pippa Heylings]

I beg to move amendment 2, in clause 3, page 2, line 18, at end insert—

“(e) measures to increase low carbon and renewable energy schemes owned, or part owned, by community organisations.”

This amendment includes community energy schemes in the objects that the Great British Energy company will be restricted to facilitating, encouraging and participating in.

--- Later in debate ---

[Michael Shanks]

Amendments 2 and 9 seek to add provisions on community energy to the Bill. As I have said in a number of answers in Parliament and in our session on Tuesday, support for community energy is something that I absolutely share, and it is clearly shared by a number of hon. Members across the House. It will be an integral part not just of Great British Energy, but of the Government’s entire energy strategy. That is why the local power plan is a key part of Great British Energy’s delivery model, and it goes broader than GB Energy, to every other part of Government policy on energy.

As my hon. Friend the Member for Na h-Eileanan an Iar pointed out, it is essential that communities are involved. It is not a nice-to-have; it is critical. If we are to build the infrastructure we will need in future, we want communities across the country to reap the rewards. A key part of that is community-driven projects and community-owned projects.

[Andrew Bowie]

Last year, almost to the day, we launched the £10 million fund for community energy projects, building on the success of previous community funds, to be delivered through local energy hubs. How does the Minister envisage Great British Energy working with those local hubs to deliver those community projects that we announced funding for last year?

--- Later in debate ---

[Michael Shanks]

That is a really helpful point. The community energy hubs that already exist are certainly something that we want to build on. The £10 million commitment is welcome. We have committed more than £1 billion to the local power plan over this Parliament, but we are building on what is already there, such as the local hubs. In Scotland, there is the community and renewable energy scheme, where we are already working with the Scottish Government to look at how we can jointly fund the project. It is really important that we work to build on what is already there.

The Government will not be supporting amendments 2 or 9 today. Amendment 2 seeks to insert an additional object to clause 3 specifically about community energy. As a few hon. Members have said, the purpose of the Bill is to set up the confines of Great British Energy as a company in as little detail as possible. We are not seeking to fill the Bill with every possible mechanism the company could use or every possible priority it could have. We are clear that we are setting up the minimum necessary provisions for Great British Energy to function.

My hon. Friend the Member for Whitehaven and Workington made the really important point earlier that we are not seeking to set in train, for however long GB Energy will deliver projects, our objectives right now, in 2024. We want to give it the most minimal possible scope, so that it can go forward in an agile way and move into areas that, at the moment, we may not think are critical. Community energy will change over time—it already has changed with regard to the models we are using.

There is nothing in the Bill that excludes communities at all. The production, distribution, storage and supply of clean energy extends to large-scale offshore programmes, but I do not think we should discount communities’ involvement in those. There are some really good models around the world. In Denmark, 20% is now expected for community ownership, so there are models of large-scale projects as well, although as the hon. Member for South Cambridgeshire rightly said, much smaller-scale generation projects that directly benefit local communities should sit alongside that.

Amendment 9 would require the Secretary of State to specifically set, as a strategic priority, measures to ensure that local communities benefit from low and renewable energy projects operating in their area. As we will discuss later, the Secretary of State will outline Great British Energy’s strategic priorities to ensure that it remains aligned with Government policy on energy more generally. The first statement, which we will make as soon as possible after Royal Assent—before Christmas, as was said earlier—will focus on driving clean energy deployment, creating jobs, boosting our energy independence and, crucially, generating benefits for UK taxpayers.

We have been clear that that process—I will say more about this later—will include consultation with Ministers in the devolved Administrations. We are already working on community energy with the devolved Administrations in Wales and Scotland, in particular, which are doing great work on it.

Clause 3 sets out the parameters for Great British Energy to carry out the five key functions that we outlined in the plan for it, one of which is to deliver the Government’s local power plan. We are very clear that Great British Energy’s role in delivering the local power plan will be to support and champion local community groups. In my evidence on Tuesday, I built on the comments of a number of our witnesses and said that there are two strands to our proposal. GB Energy will provide some of the funding, but it will also have a critical role where communities can access funding but lack capacity. I am thinking in particular about rural communities and local authorities across the country that previously had in-house energy expertise but are no longer in a position to lead on some of these projects.

There are great municipal schemes across Europe, and we would like to see some of them in this country. That will require GB Energy to provide funding and, crucially, capacity building.

[Torcuil Crichton]

I am pleased to hear that the Minister has such enthusiasm for municipal and community schemes. There are examples in my constituency of communities that have come together. There are three community-owned estates on the west side of Lewis with a plan for nine turbines generating 43 MW. That could bring in £4 million into that community, but it needs need pump-priming and help to get it there. Similarly, onshore windfarm schemes have been proposed and are in planning, with the offer for municipal and arm’s length companies of local authorities to take shares of up to 20%, as the Minister said. That is the kind of thing that GB Energy could do if we just get through this Bill.

[Michael Shanks]

I take my hon. Friend’s point in the spirit in which it was intended and not as an attempt to rush me through the rest of these proceedings so we can get the Bill up and running, but we will move at pace. Every time he speaks, he is very good at reminding me that I need to visit those projects in Lewis with him at some point. He is absolutely right that it is important that we give communities, in whatever form—local government, local island communities, villages or towns —the ability to come together with the capacity to deliver on their energy potential.

I fundamentally believe that the Bill is at the heart of what the Government desire to do on the local power plan and community ownership more generally. We are absolutely committed to community energy, including through things such as what the Co-operative party has put forward. There is nothing in the Bill that prevents that from happening. For those reasons, I hope that the hon. Member for South Cambridgeshire will withdraw her amendment.

[Pippa Heylings]

It is wonderful to hear hon. Members say how supportive they are of community energy and give examples from their local areas. In Cambridgeshire, the expertise is still there—it is absolutely amazing. We have community energy projects, including wind energy, and a whole village has an off-grid heat network, which is a national case in point.

I ask the Minister once again to take into account the cross-party support for the amendment. It is not a bauble, nor is it about crossing t’s and dotting i’s; it is about public ownership models. At the moment there is real concern, because although we talk about the great things happening, in the latest meetings we have held with advocates of community energy, we have been told that it is in crisis. Although GB Energy is removing the barriers to large-scale clean energy projects, there are barriers to community energy, which is why we have so few new community energy projects, in contrast to the past. We need investment, but it is not just about the money and capacity. It is about the rights—the ownership model and the right not only to generate but to sell locally, with an equal cost to connect.

--- Later in debate ---

[Perran Moon]

I am absolutely delighted that the Government are already talking about the warm homes plan. We have a plan, and it is coming through; we have talked about it coming through in spring. Today we are talking about the Great British Energy Bill, and it is really important that we retain the focus on ensuring that the Bill has flexibility, so that we can see the strategic priorities delivering on GB Energy specifically.

[Michael Shanks]

The hon. Member for South Cambridgeshire has rightly and passionately outlined the scandal of people living in cold homes and poorly insulated homes. She is right that it is an absolute scandal.

[Stephen Flynn]

The Minister is being generous with his time, as always. It is a scandal that people are in cold homes. Why is he supportive of the Government taking away the winter fuel allowance?

[Michael Shanks]

The right hon. Gentleman is combining two different things there.

[The Chair]

Order. This is not within the scope of the Bill.

--- Later in debate ---

[Michael Shanks]

It is not within the scope of the Bill, but I am happy to answer the question. Whether or not there is a winter fuel payment, people are still living in homes that are poorly insulated, including in Scotland where the right hon. Gentleman’s colleagues have cut consistently, year after year, the budget that delivered insulation programmes in Scotland.

[The Chair]

Order. Let us go back to what is in the Bill.

[Michael Shanks]

They cut more than £100 million last year to plug gaps in their own budget. If we are looking at energy efficiency, the right hon. Gentleman could look closer to home at what his own Government in Scotland are doing.

To return to the Bill, I want to address both paragraphs in the Liberal Democrats’ amendment 10. First, the new object proposed in paragraph (e) would mean that Great British Energy’s objects included facilitating and participating in emergency home insulation programmes. Several of my hon. Friends have pointed out that although those programmes are incredibly important—I will come in a moment on to what the UK Government are already doing on the issue—it is important to detach the Bill from every other part of our energy policy. Although I totally understand the perspective that says, “These issues are important. Let’s put them on the face of a Bill to say so,” it is really important to say that the Bill itself does matter. This is about setting up and delivering the Great British Energy company. It is not the answer to every single part of the energy system. There are places where we are already moving forward on home insulation programmes, such as the warm homes fund, and it would be more appropriate to talk about those matters in that connection.

That is not to downplay the importance of the issue. As a Government, we are committed to taking bold action. Within the first 100 days, my colleague the Minister for Energy Consumers, my hon. Friend the Member for Peckham (Miatta Fahnbulleh), has outlined the work that we will do on this. The warm homes plan that we have announced is the most ambitious such plan ever. It will be implemented from the spring, delivering cleaner, cheaper energy in the process and ensuring that people, particularly in those low-income households where fuel costs already account for a disproportionate amount of income, can spend less money on them because their home is insulated and warm. That is a right that everyone should have.

[Harriet Cross (Gordon and Buchan) (Con)]

Does the Minister appreciate that although in the run-up to the election it was assumed, or said, quite often that GB Energy would save households £300, that figure seems now to have been dropped? Is this not a mechanism to ensure that low-income households see some benefit from the Bill? They will not necessarily take the Government’s word for it that it may come later, when we have already seen announcements such as the figure of £300 being dropped.

[Michael Shanks]

We have not dropped any announcement on reducing bills, but GB Energy was not going to be the single thing that would deliver that; it was the Government’s whole energy strategy. It is important to say that. I said in my evidence to the Committee on Tuesday that GB Energy is an important part of delivering that, but it is not a silver bullet. It will not be the thing that deals with every single aspect of our energy policy. It is also about what we are doing, for example, around increasing the renewables auction to get more cheaper energy on to the grid. It is about what we are doing around planning, consenting and connections. All that work is related to bringing down bills in the long term.

The Conservative party—the party that was in government when all our constituents suffered some of the highest price spikes that we have ever experienced—has to recognise, as it did for many years until it moved away from this policy, that the only way to reduce our dependence on the volatile markets that have led to increases in bills is to move towards greener, cheaper energy in the long term. That is what GB Energy is about delivering, that is what will bring down bills in the long term, and that is what we continue to deliver through this Bill.

I turn to paragraph (f) of amendment 10, which I am afraid we cannot support today, partly because it says what is already in the Bill on expanding renewable energy and technology. The Bill itself facilitates exactly those points and defines clean energy as

“energy produced from sources other than fossil fuels.”

That existing object already enables Great British Energy to drive the deployment of clean energy, helping to boost our energy independence, create jobs and ensure that communities reap the benefit of home-grown energy. Therefore, as a whole, amendment 10 is unnecessary, as the Bill already enables all of those points in clause 3.

The words of the hon. Member for South Cambridgeshire are heartfelt and have been genuinely heard; I hope she gets that sense from all my hon. Friends and me. Such initiatives are an important part, not of GB Energy in itself, but of the whole Government’s mission to make communities in their households much safer from the lack of insulation and cold homes from which they are suffering at the moment. For those reasons, we will not support the amendment, and I hope that the hon. Lady will not press it.

[Pippa Heylings]

I thank all hon. Members for their serious consideration of the amendment. The hon. Member for Sheffield Hallam said that it was important to consider the role that energy efficiency plays within overall demand. I agree that it is part of the wider policy, but I think it is also critical in the context of GB Energy, because there is room for interpretation of clause 3(2)(c), which is about energy efficiency, as in energy efficiency in the process of generating energy.

--- Later in debate ---

Question proposed, That the clause stand part of the Bill.

[Michael Shanks]

In summary, clause 3 is about restricting Great British Energy’s activities to those specifically listed in the Bill, around “facilitating, encouraging and participating” in clean energy projects, reducing greenhouse gas emissions, improving energy efficiency, and ensuring energy security in the long term. Clause 3 thus provides the framework for Great British Energy to carry out the five functions outlined in its founding statement.

I turn to the objects set out in clause 3. Clause 3(2)(a) will enable Great British Energy to facilitate, encourage and participate in clean energy projects. Clean energy is defined in the Bill as

“energy produced from sources other than fossil fuels”.

The object will enable Great British Energy to drive the deployment of clean energy, helping to boost our energy independence.

Clause 3(2)(b) will enable Great British Energy to facilitate, encourage or participate in projects that would contribute to the reduction of greenhouse gases from energy produced from fossil fuels. Building on some of the evidence we heard on Tuesday, I want to be very clear that that includes, for example, projects relating to carbon capture and storage, or blue hydrogen.

Clause 3(2)(c) will enable Great British Energy to deliver measures to improve energy efficiency. That could include, for example, supporting demand reduction through the local power plant.

Clause 3(2)(d) will enable Great British Energy to respond to any future energy crisis, and deliver measures to support the long-term security of supply. Great British Energy is part of a bold, long-term strategy to harness our nation’s clean energy potential, and ensure that we reduce our exposure to the volatile fossil fuel markets.

Through those objects, clause 3 provides the framework from which Great British Energy can carry out its five functions. Although the five functions are set out in the founding statement rather than in the Bill, it would be helpful to refer to them in the context of clause 3. First, Great British Energy will invest in and own energy projects. Secondly, Great British Energy will lead projects through their early development stages, to speed up delivery while capturing value for the British people. Thirdly, Great British Energy will deliver our local power plan, working with local authorities, combined authorities and communities to deliver the biggest expansion of community owned energy in British history. Fourthly, Great British Energy will work with industry to develop supply chains across the UK to boost energy independence, but also, crucially, to create good, well-paid, trade unionised jobs.

[Andrew Bowie]

On the point about supply chains, the sustainable industry rewards were being designed to come with the next auction round next year. How will GB Energy work alongside the existing frameworks to deliver those sustainable industry rewards, to ensure that we build up the domestic supply chain that everybody across the parties wants?

[Michael Shanks]

That is an important point. We will announce more about allocation round 7 in due course, and how our industrial work and British jobs will work together to create those supply chains. It is an important point about the broad nature of what we want to do: to give confidence to industry that a pipeline of projects will be coming long into the future—beyond 2030, actually, although that is our initial key target—so that it is worth investing in and building the factories and supply chains in the UK. Great British Energy will be part of that, but it will certainly not be the entirety of it. We are working with the national wealth fund and the UK Infrastructure Bank to deliver more of those projects in the UK.

The final function, which the shadow Minister will appreciate, is that Great British Energy will help advance the work of Great British Nuclear. We will say more in due course about exactly how those two organisations work together. Those five functions enable Great British Energy to deliver on its clear mission of driving forward clean energy deployment, boosting our energy independence, creating good jobs and ensuring that UK taxpayers, bill payers and communities reap the benefits of clean and secure home-grown energy.

[Wera Hobhouse]

Will the Minister confirm that he said that we might cross-reference the five functions in the Bill? In that way, people will be clear, for example, that community energy is cross-referenced in the Bill as one of the five functions. Did he say that earlier?

[Michael Shanks]

No, I did not say that. What I was saying was that the context of the objects in the Bill is given by the functions that we set out in the founding statement. It is clear that those founding principles of Great British Energy, which the Secretary of State announced in that founding statement along with the start-up chair, Juergen Maier, will be largely what drives the initial statement of priorities for the company.

The objects themselves are around creating restrictions on what Great British Energy can do. We have left them deliberately broad so that the company is able to move in and out of different spaces. I am not sure whether the hon. Lady was here earlier, but we said clearly that there is nothing in the Bill that precludes community energy at all. I have repeated a number of times our absolute commitment to that and to the local power plan.

We will turn to clause 5 in due course, but it is relevant to the point we are discussing. Great British Energy will, of course, be operationally independent—a model adopted by a number of different companies; it is important for it to have its own board of experts in their fields. However, the Secretary of State will be able to set the company’s strategic priorities, which we will debate later. That is to ensure that although Great British Energy is operationally independent, it is setting out the functions in its founding statement while remaining agile to the Government priorities of the day. Importantly, it is a vehicle for delivering the central points of Government policy, including community energy, energy efficiency and many of the other things we have talked about. I commend the clause to the Committee.

Question put and agreed to.

Clause 3 accordingly ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Clause 4

Financial assistance

Question proposed, That the clause stand part of the Bill.

[Michael Shanks]

Great British Energy will be operationally independent, with the Secretary of State as the sole shareholder. To operate, Great British Energy clearly needs funding, and clause 4 will give the Secretary of State the power to provide financial assistance to Great British Energy. That is so that GB Energy can take action in line with its statutory objects set out in clause 3, including financing its investments, joint ventures and day-to-day running costs.

To be clear, our intention is that Great British Energy will become financially self-sufficient in the long term. Great British Energy will invest in projects and expect a return on investments, generating revenue and delivering profits that benefit the public. It will also create tens of thousands of good jobs. However, it is prudent to ensure that the Secretary of State has the power to provide further financial support if required. Just as private sector companies would rely on the financial strength of their corporate groups to raise funds, there could be a case for providing Great British Energy with further financial support for specific projects in the future. The clause will enable that.

I assure the Committee that any further financial assistance to Great British Energy provided by the Secretary of State will of course be subject to the usual governance and control principles applicable to public sector bodies, such as His Majesty’s Treasury’s “Managing Public Money”.

Finally, in the highly unlikely situation of Great British Energy facing financial difficulty, the powers set out in clause 4 would allow the Secretary of State to step in to help prevent any disruption to Great British Energy’s intended interventions. I commend the clause to the Committee.

[Andrew Bowie]

I am comforted that the Minister thinks it very unlikely that GB Energy will get into any financial difficulty. But let us look at state-owned energy companies around the world. Just last year, for example, EDF—a fantastic company investing a lot into the United Kingdom—had to be bailed out to the tune of about €20 billion. Although I am comforted by his assurance, I think we would like to see a little more evidence for that assertion before moving forward.

The Minister says that any financial assistance will be governed by the usual processes of being accountable to Parliament, and that the Secretary of State would be, should that be the case, but clause 4(3) states:

“Financial assistance under this section may be provided subject to any conditions the Secretary of State considers appropriate.”

Should it not be conditions that Parliament considers appropriate? Will the Minister expand more on what those conditions might be?

[Michael Shanks]

I am always willing to give the hon. Gentleman comfort, in this and many other things. On both those points, the Bill quite rightly says that it is subject to any particular requirements of the Secretary of State. That is about saying that, instead of giving money to a company without any requirements, requirements will of course be put on what that funding is for—a fairly standard thing that I think we would expect.

On the broader point about parliamentary scrutiny, there are of course a number of mechanisms through which Parliament can bring scrutiny to these decisions. As I have already said, it will be outlined that any additional funding that should be given to GB Energy in the future will be in the course of the normal processes of any financial transactions that the Government undertake.

I think this is important, though: the hon. Gentleman has used the EDF example on a number of occasions, but he does not often reference the other side of the equation —hugely successful state-owned companies around the world. The truth, in all this Bill, is that for the first time in more than 70 years we are delivering a publicly owned energy company in this country, in the same vision as many of the publicly owned energy companies that are hugely successful around the world and delivering huge returns to their taxpayers every single year.

We are starting off GB Energy on a much smaller scale —of course we are—but, in time, we see it as a vehicle for delivering some of the huge successes that those companies have, and delivering a huge return to the public. We believe that public ownership of infrastructure is a good thing, and we hope that we can convince hon. Members across the House that this is the right thing to take forward.

Question put, That the clause stand part of the Bill.

--- Later in debate ---

[Michael Shanks]

I am very happy to. The right hon. Member talks about promises in an election campaign. He may distance himself from some of the promises that his Holyrood colleagues make—at least at the moment, until he makes his move—but it is important to say that, time and again, his own party made promises in its 17 years in power. We have committed to lowering bills, and as I will outline in a minute, we will continue to commit to that. GB Energy is the vehicle for doing that. I am delighted that he has pledged support for it today. That, along with all the Government’s policies, is how we will reduce bills in the long term.

Perhaps the right hon. Member should take a bit of a lesson from us about promises in election campaigns and how to win them, which is not to promise to set up a publicly owned energy company in Scotland and still not have done so 15 years after it was announced. We are doing it now within 100 days.

[Stephen Flynn]

I admire the Minister’s attempt to compare GB Energy, as supposedly a producer and generator of energy, with an organisation that could have sold electricity—

[Michael Shanks]

Could have! It did not do anything.

[Stephen Flynn]

Of course it did not do anything, because the capital was not there to do that. If it had existed under the price shock that the Tories brought in for all of us, it would not have been able to function, in the same way that so many others in the private sector were not able to function. The Minister is trying to equate two things that are not comparable. When he rises to his feet, as he seems very keen to, perhaps he will confirm, first, when bills will fall by £300, and secondly—as he failed to do the other day—when they will come down at all.

Before the Minister interrupted so pleasantly, I was pointing out to Government Members that the Conservatives made promises on energy that they failed to deliver. The public have high expectations—so get on and deliver.

[Michael Shanks]

We will not support the amendments tabled by the shadow Minister or that of the right hon. Member for Aberdeen South, but it is important to say why. As several of my hon. Friends have made clear, putting specific figures into a Bill is not what any Parliament does, but it is important to set out the objects, purpose and vision of GB Energy, as it will play a crucial role in bringing down bills in the long term and preventing the price spikes that we and our constituents still face.

--- Later in debate ---

[Michael Shanks]

For the reasons I have already outlined, that is implicit in the policy; it is why we are doing it. I think the shadow Minister agreed in response to one of my hon. Friends that this is a useful approach to reducing bills, and the push towards green energy is important.

[Andrew Bowie]

indicated assent.

[Michael Shanks]

The shadow Minister nods in support. I look forward to his support for the Bill as a vehicle for delivering it.

[Andrew Bowie]

indicated dissent.

[Michael Shanks]

He stops short of that.

The shadow Minister spoke earlier about the rising bills caused by Putin’s invasion of Ukraine, as if somehow the UK had no vulnerabilities that particularly exposed us to that invasion. Of course it was an external factor, but it led to huge price spikes in this country, and we are still exposed to volatile fossil fuel markets. We are determined to push towards energy security through cleaner green energy. That is moving at pace—our recent renewables auction was the biggest we have ever had, with 131 projects—and Great British Energy will drive that forward.

[Harriet Cross]

We have already discussed the financial assistance in the Bill. It is therefore anticipated that there may be financial strain. Given that the objects in the Bill do not include reducing bills, what guarantee is there that reducing bills will be a priority if and when finances become tight?

[Michael Shanks]

On the financial point, the Bill is an enabling mechanism, like a number of other pieces of legislation, including the UK Infrastructure Bank Act 2023, which the hon. Lady’s party introduced in government to allow the Secretary of State to give additional funding to companies. We said throughout the election that we would reduce energy bills, and we stand by that, but we cannot flick a switch. The idea that some Members have put forward that somehow, after 14 years of chaos from the Conservative party, a Government can come in and, within 100 days, turn everything around overnight is simply and deliberately disingenuous. Conservative Members take no responsibility for the actions of the previous Government.

We are putting in place as quickly as possible the basis for delivering energy security in the long term and removing volatility from our energy market, so that we can deliver cheaper bills for everyone in the long term. We made no pledge during the election that we would do it in 100 days, a year or two years, because we know fine well that that commitment will take time. But it is the right journey for us to be on, and it is right that we have started by building the energy resilience we need in the system.

[Stephen Flynn]

I do not think that my Commons colleagues and I would suggest that the Government should have reduced energy bills within 100 days, but, my goodness, they have just gone up by 10%. The Minister says that it will not happen within a year or two years, so I would be keen, as would the public, to know broadly when he expects energy bills to come down. I do not say that from an angry position; I want the public to have a bit of clarity about his objectives.

[Michael Shanks]

It is an important point, and I take it in the spirit in which the right hon. Gentleman says he intends it, but nobody is in a position to say what will happen to bills on a particular date. They will start to come down as our exposure to more expensive forms of energy is reduced, but the price cap has already increased because we continue to be exposed to those international markets, and there are actions taken by the previous Government that will continue as we move into the winter. We are doing everything we can to turn that around as quickly as possible.

The right hon. Gentleman knows as well as anyone that at the next election we will absolutely be judged on this and on a whole series of commitments that we have made, as any party is judged on its commitments in elections. We stand by that. We are doing everything we possibly can to deliver the change that is necessary. It will bring down bills in the long term. It will be difficult— I am not suggesting that it will not—but it is a commitment that we have made and it is one that we will work towards.

[Harriet Cross]

Just for clarity, will the other changes that Labour is bringing in, such as ending North sea licences, increasing and extending the windfall tax and ending investment allowances, make us more or less secure in the meantime, before GB Energy is set up? Will they expose us more or less to the international market?

[The Chair]

Order. There is a scope issue here.

[Michael Shanks]

We are moving slightly off the Bill, but that is an important point; we have spoken about it before, and I am very happy to keep speaking about it. The difference is that, whether gas comes from the North sea or from international markets, it is traded on an international market. We pay the price whether it comes from the North sea or not. That is why the price spikes have been so important.

[The Chair]

Order. This is not in scope. We can move on.

[Michael Shanks]

I fully suspect that in my time as Energy Minister, I will come back to the hon. Lady’s question. It is an important one, and I am very happy to discuss it.

Turning back to the amendments, we have been very clear that the creation of Great British Energy is about helping us to harness clean energy and reduce our reliance on volatile fossil fuels. But it is important—with the patience of the Chair—to outline the other things that we are doing, more broadly than Great British Energy and the Bill. It is important that Labour’s reforms dovetail with what Great British Energy is doing, particularly the review of market arrangements started by the previous Government. We will conclude that work.

We will continue to deliver the warm home discount, which provides a £150 annual rebate off energy bills for eligible low-income households. We are also looking at the burden placed on bills by standing charges, which still make up too much of so many people’s bills; the Minister for Energy Consumers, my hon. Friend the Member for Peckham, is looking at that now. We are working with Ofgem to look at how we can reduce that.

There is a series of measures that are all important and that all work towards the same goal. GB Energy is one of those, and it is important that we implement it as quickly as possible so that we can move forward with increasing our capacity for cheaper energy and reduce bills in the long term. For that reason, the amendments are not necessary.

[Andrew Bowie]

The Minister has our full support on the broad approach that he is taking on market frameworks, standing charges and working with Ofgem, given that we started that work when we were in government. However, a commitment to work towards reducing consumer bills, and specifically the £300 reduction that the Labour party promised during the election would result from the creation of Great British Energy, should be in the Bill. That is why our amendment is essential. I will press it to a vote.

Question put, That the amendment be made.