Devolution (Scotland Referendum)

Debate between Michael Moore and Angus Brendan MacNeil

Tuesday 14th October 2014 Commons Chamber

[Michael Moore (Berwickshire, Roxburgh and Selkirk) (LD)]

We in Scotland have just enjoyed the most amazing democratic moment. It is estimated that 97% of the population registered to take part in the referendum; there was a record turnout of 85%; and for the first time in a major election in the United Kingdom 16 and 17-year-olds participated and—dare I say it—excelled themselves in doing so in the build-up and in the referendum itself. At the conclusion, we have a clear outcome: Scotland has voted to stay in the United Kingdom, which I very much welcome.

However, we would be foolish not to recognise that Scotland and the whole of the United Kingdom have changed in recent times. More than 100 years of debate about ‘home rule’ and independence swirled around the decision we in Scotland took a month ago, but wider issues were in the mix as well. A generation of aggressive globalisation and the whirlwind of the financial crisis have raised questions, too, about how we are governed. In Hawick or Dundee, Alkrington or, indeed, Clacton, people are asking whether the political structures and system of governance are right for them, their family or their community, and for rather a lot of people the answer is a resounding no.

It is clear to me that people in Scotland support devolution and want more of it. There is a lot of talk about the “settled will” of the people of Scotland, but determining what that is depends on one’s perspective.

[Mr MacNeil]

rose—

[Michael Moore]

Paragraph 30 of the Edinburgh agreement—in which I had the privilege to be involved—was clear about respecting the outcome, and I welcome the fact that the Scottish Government have done that and said the right things about the process going forward.

[Mr MacNeil]

rose—

[Michael Moore]

I respect the fact that the hon. Gentleman who is trying to intervene and his colleagues will continue to argue for independence—that is their right and I am sure they will do that with their traditional energy, which they brought to the referendum campaign and have already brought to this afternoon’s debate. Some, of course, seem to wish to challenge the result, and occasionally we might think we had lost the referendum in Scotland and we had voted for independence, but we should not denigrate the spirit of what has gone on and the importance of what we have been involved in for these past few years, and we must make sure we now respond to the democratic will of the Scottish people.

[Mr MacNeil]

I thank the right hon. Gentleman for giving way, and it is good to hear him praise the referendum, in such great contrast to the criticisms of the referendum we often heard at the Dispatch Box two or three years ago. It has turned out to be a very energising event in Scotland. On the vow, the right hon. Gentleman’s party leader signed that vow, but where is his party leader this afternoon? Why are he, the Prime Minister and the Leader of the Opposition not in this Chamber? Why are they not here? They went to Scotland to sign a vow, but they are not here today.

[Michael Moore]

I know that SNP Members are the source of many conspiracy theories, but this is a pretty lame one. I hope the hon. Gentleman will relax a bit and perhaps wait for the chance to advance his own argument. May I take issue with a point he made in his preamble, too? This Parliament respected the victory of the SNP in the Scottish Parliament in 2011. The constitution is very firmly reserved to the Houses of Parliament, yet, recognising the will of the Scottish people in the Scottish elections, we took measures to devolve the power to hold the referendum to Edinburgh—something that was done peacefully and straightforwardly—and, rather than object, obstruct or get in the way of the referendum, we were active and positive participants in it. I shall come to the question of the vow in a moment.

The aspirations of the people of Scotland have been expressed in many different ways over many years. We have seen a cycle of devolution in which people have argued their case and set out their ideas for new powers, followed by a moment in which people came together and found common ground. Those proposals were then put to the people, to determine and implement more powers.

The vow was important. It underlined what had been happening in Scotland for some time. It was not new; people did not suddenly come up with stuff that had not previously been put forward. The commission that my right hon. and learned Friend the Member for North East Fife (Sir Menzies Campbell) led on behalf of the Liberal Democrats in Scotland had looked at this issue and reported in 2012. The findings were updated in 2013. The Strathclyde commission, on behalf of the Conservatives, reported last year. The Labour commission reported earlier this year. The party leaders in Scotland came together to pledge more powers earlier this summer. There has been a clear programme, and a commitment from all the UK parties throughout the referendum campaign to give more powers to the Scottish Parliament.

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Michael Moore and Angus Brendan MacNeil

Wednesday 26th June 2013 Commons Chamber

[Michael Moore]

My right hon. and learned Friend makes a very important point. I can assure him that my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Defence is very much engaged in this entire debate. Central to that debate will be the SNP’s attempt to have it both ways by reluctantly and belatedly signing up for NATO—three quarters of Scots support it, so that was perhaps inevitable—while not being willing to accept the obligations and rules that go with it, including a nuclear umbrella as part of the strategic concept.

[Mr Angus Brendan MacNeil (Na h-Eileanan an Iar) (SNP)]

It emerged at the weekend that insiders of the no campaign against Scottish independence secretly call the campaign “project fear”. This is a campaign based on scaremongering and negativity. Is the Secretary of State embarrassed?

[Michael Moore]

I think people on the pro-UK side of the campaign could show their Twitter feeds to anyone to show what negativity and scaremongering are all about. I think, too, that hon. Gentleman should be a little careful about casting aspersions and should concentrate on getting on with the proper arguments. From his side of the debate, we have so far seen no arguments and no detail.

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Michael Moore and Angus Brendan MacNeil

Wednesday 13th February 2013 Commons Chamber

[Michael Moore]

May I, as I did in response to the hon. Member for Edinburgh East (Sheila Gilmore), remind the hon. Lady of the scale of the financial challenge that faced this Government when they came into office and the need to tackle those serious problems? She should also remember that we have introduced huge extra measures to help families across Scotland. I have to say to her, as I said to the hon. Member for Moray (Angus Robertson), that we are not hearing credible solutions coming forward from her and her colleagues. Until such time as we do, we will not take any lessons on fairness from her.

[Mr Angus Brendan MacNeil (Na h-Eileanan an Iar) (SNP)]

6. What consideration his Department has given to the recommendations of the Electoral Commission’s report on the Scottish referendum.

[The Secretary of State for Scotland (Michael Moore)]

The United Kingdom Government welcome the reports from the Electoral Commission. We agree with the commission’s advice on the question, on the funding levels for the referendum, and on the clarity of the process.

[Mr MacNeil]

When in opposition the Secretary of State wanted to extinguish his office; now he is in government he is publishing papers that talk about extinguishing Scotland—yes, extinguishing Scotland. As an act of repentance, will he ensure that his Tory-Liberal Government play fair with the Electoral Commission, as the Scottish National party Government are doing, and, as the Electoral Commission referee has asked, enter into dialogue together on Scotland’s future?

[Michael Moore]

I am sure that the hon. Gentleman welcomes the publication earlier this week of this major contribution to the debate by the UK Government. We agree with the Electoral Commission’s recommendations. The document fleshes out the issues on the legal status of Scotland within the UK. Of course, over time, as these issues are discussed further, we will, as appropriate, meet the Scottish Government, as I have already said on many occasions. [Hon. Members: “Ah!”] I am delighted that that is good news for the hon. Gentleman and his colleagues.

Constitutional Law

Debate between Michael Moore and Angus Brendan MacNeil

Tuesday 15th January 2013 Commons Chamber

[Michael Moore]

The hon. Lady makes an important point. I do not believe it is appropriate for us to discuss that directly with the Scottish Government; it is for the Scottish Parliament to decide how it determines its own business. Former Members of that Parliament who are in this House today may wish to pick up on the hon. Lady’s point. I absolutely agree, however, with her central point that we should consider the issue properly and seriously. Symbolically, we are taking longer than we would normally to consider a statutory instrument because of the significance of the order. People would look askance if parliamentary processes elsewhere were cut short in the course of the debate, but the issue is for the Scottish Parliament to determine. We all have colleagues in that Parliament who, I am sure, will make the hon. Lady’s point very vigorously.

Let me turn to one issue that has attracted some comment, particularly from the Scottish Government. The concluding paragraph of the Edinburgh agreement contains a commitment by both Governments to hold a referendum that is legal, fair and decisive. There have been some creative interpretations of this paragraph in recent times, and I want to take the opportunity to restate its clear and obvious meaning.

Paragraph 30 reads:

“The United Kingdom and Scottish Governments are committed, through the Memorandum of Understanding between them and others, to working together on matters of mutual interest and to the principles of good communication and mutual respect. The two Governments have reached this agreement in that spirit. They look forward to a referendum that is legal and fair producing a decisive and respected outcome. The two Governments are committed to continue to work together constructively in the light of the outcome, whatever it is, in the best interests of the people of Scotland and of the rest of the United Kingdom.”

That means that the two Governments will conduct the referendum on the same constructive terms as they work today, and that if the referendum follows the path set out in the order and agreement, its outcome will be decisive. Regardless of the result, that constructive relationship should continue as we move forward. That is good practice and common sense. It does not mean, however, that in the event of a yes vote, the remaining UK would facilitate Scotland’s every wish—no more than an independent Scotland would unquestioningly facilitate the wishes of the remaining UK. Inevitably, when there are two separate countries, there are two sets of interests—sometimes mutual, sometimes at odds. That is the case in the UK’s relationships with its closest allies today, and we honour that principle, and so it always will be between separate, sovereign states.

The Edinburgh agreement, particularly paragraph 30, is a statement of our determination to hold a referendum that is legal, fair and decisive. It does not—and cannot—pre-empt the implications of that vote, and it is important that everyone is clear about that.

[Mr Angus Brendan MacNeil (Na h-Eileanan an Iar) (SNP)]

The Secretary of State talks about what might happen if the result of the referendum is yes. Whose interests will he be representing post the yes vote?

[Michael Moore]

I am absolutely confident that Scotland will vote to stay in the United Kingdom. I am committed to doing what is in the best interests of Scotland, regardless of the outcome, as I said on the radio yesterday morning.

Scotland’s future within the UK will be the most important decision that we as Scots take in our lifetime. Facilitating a legal, fair and decisive referendum is critical. That is why we consulted on this issue, why both Governments have spent many hours discussing and negotiating the process, and why we seek the support of the House today to approve this order.

Debating this order in the House today marks an important step as we move from discussions on process to the substance of the great debate. It is now essential that the referendum decision is focused on determining whether Scotland chooses to remain an integral part of the most successful partnership of nations the world has ever seen; to remain part of a family of nations that works in the interests of all; or whether it wishes to leave and go it alone. That decision should not be taken lightly; it should be taken after examining all the facts.

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Michael Moore and Angus Brendan MacNeil

Wednesday 12th September 2012 Commons Chamber

[Michael Moore]

The last time my hon. Friend raised this point, it followed a discussion with Mrs Bone and other members of the family. I appreciate that she is otherwise distracted getting herself ready for this weekend’s charity run, for which the whole House will wish her all the best. I regret that when she focuses back on politics, the answer she will hear is very little different from the one I gave a few months ago, namely that our priority is to sort out the public finances and the mess we inherited from the Labour party. We are focused on that relentlessly, and any future review must wait until it is completed.

[Mr Angus Brendan MacNeil (Na h-Eileanan an Iar) (SNP)]

It is a fact that Barnett spending was higher in both Northern Ireland and London than Scotland. Does the Minister know that Scotland has 8.4% of the UK population, but pays 9.6% of UK taxation and is more than paying its own way?

[Michael Moore]

I agree with one part of the hon. Gentleman’s observation, namely that spending around the UK varies considerably. We need to take all spending into account as we assess the situation. As for believing the Scottish National party’s figures, we must continue to agree to differ.

Scotland’s Constitutional Future

Debate between Michael Moore and Angus Brendan MacNeil

Tuesday 10th January 2012 Commons Chamber

[Michael Moore]

I am not going to speculate on the election results in May, but I agree that we should get a clear basis for the referendum and get it sooner rather than later.

[Mr Angus Brendan MacNeil (Na h-Eileanan an Iar) (SNP)]

The Secretary of State has made a big issue of a point of law, but in June last year, Professor Stephen Tierney, professor of constitutional theory at Edinburgh university, said:

“The Scottish Parliament has the authority to stage a referendum.”

Does the Secretary of State agree that Scotland’s democratic Parliament does not need Westminster’s permission for a self-determination referendum, although a generous spirit from the Westminster Government would indeed be welcome?

[Michael Moore]

I am afraid that for reasons that should now be obvious I do not agree with the hon. Gentleman.

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Michael Moore and Angus Brendan MacNeil

Wednesday 9th November 2011 Commons Chamber

[Michael Moore]

My hon. Friend is absolutely right to highlight the issues that face Scotland if it chooses to be independent and the fact that such a process cannot take place without some very hard-nosed negotiations with our European partners, who are facing real difficulties all over the continent. We need the SNP to spell out its plans on how it will deal with those issues—then let us get on with the independence referendum.

[Mr Angus Brendan MacNeil (Na h-Eileanan an Iar) (SNP)]

Does the Secretary of State agree that the social union, the Commonwealth, the monarchy and particularly the current Queen—Queen Elizabeth—will be important whatever constitutional arrangements Scotland has in the future? That, of course, would mirror the situation in independent Canada, New Zealand and Australia, with Scotland being the Queen’s 17th independent realm.

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Michael Moore and Angus Brendan MacNeil

Wednesday 9th March 2011 Commons Chamber

[Mr Angus Brendan MacNeil (Na h-Eileanan an Iar) (SNP)]

2. What recent discussions he has had with the Chancellor of the Exchequer on the implementation of a fuel duty derogation for rural areas.

[The Secretary of State for Scotland (Michael Moore)]

I have regular discussions with the Chancellor of the Exchequer on a wide range of issues. The Government have already announced that they intend to introduce a pilot scheme that will deliver a discount on petrol and diesel in rural areas, including the inner and outer Hebrides, the Northern Isles, the islands in the Clyde, and the Isles of Scilly.

[Mr MacNeil]

Through the rural fuel derogation we must ensure that there is transparency in fuel distribution in the highlands and islands. Nine months ago, there was 8p difference between Stornoway and Inverness; now there is 18p difference in the price of a litre of fuel. Will the Secretary of State make sure that the Office of Fair Trading looks at issues surrounding fuel distribution, so that any savings from a rural fuel derogation are passed on to families, businesses and the community in the islands?

[Michael Moore]

I welcome the hon. Gentleman’s implicit recognition of the importance of the derogation, which we are seeking and on which my right hon. Friends in the Treasury will make formal submissions in the near future. As for distribution issues, the hon. Gentleman is right to highlight the complexities of the price of fuel across the country. He knows that better than most people, and I am happy to meet him to discuss the issue further.

Scotland Bill

Debate between Michael Moore and Angus Brendan MacNeil

Thursday 27th January 2011 Commons Chamber

[Michael Moore]

What I absolutely agree with is the process that we went through as three different parties that came together in the Calman commission, examining the options, scrutinising them and coming forward with a balanced set of proposals. We look forward to seeing fully costed proposals from the hon. Gentleman and his colleagues. They have had months to produce them— indeed, years—but as yet we have seen nothing. That is something that the House will note and that will perhaps reduce the bluster on the part of some.

[Mr Angus Brendan MacNeil (Na h-Eileanan an Iar) (SNP)]

To supplement the extensive list that my hon. Friend the Member for Dundee East (Stewart Hosie) read out, may I add the power of the Crown Estate being returned to the Scottish Parliament? Indeed, four or five years ago five Liberal highlands MPs supported that very proposal in a ten-minute rule Bill. Is that still the position of the Liberal party? If so, will the Liberals try to use the Scotland Bill to ensure that the Crown Estate is returned to Scotland?

[Michael Moore]

The hon. Gentleman is tempting me to get slightly ahead of myself. He will see the proposals that we have set out in the Bill, taking account of the evidence that was supplied to the Calman commission.

--- Later in debate ---

[Michael Moore]

I would hate to destroy the cross-party consensus by making any inappropriate reference to a £155,000 million deficit, so I will move swiftly on. On the technical point the hon. Gentleman raises, if he looks again at the Command Paper, he will see that there are provisions to ensure that no Government will be able simply to borrow in order to stack up a capital reserve to spend in the future or to land a subsequent Administration in debt.

[Mr MacNeil]

On a point of clarification, would the right hon. Gentleman like to see power over the Crown Estate devolved to the Scottish Parliament?

[Michael Moore]

Those provisions are not in the Bill. That case has not been put forward in detail either by the Government of Scotland, of whom his colleagues are members, or by others. If such proposals were to come forward some time in the future, there could be a public debate, but as far as the Scotland Bill is concerned, it is consistent with the Calman commission and will make sure, formally, that we have a Scottish commissioner. That will ensure that Scottish interests on the Crown Estate are well represented in future.

As Secretary of State for Scotland, I am fully aware of my role in ensuring that we keep the Crown Estate focused on its interests across the whole of the United Kingdom. I have had two formal meetings so far and another is planned. That is probably as good a record as most recent Secretaries of State. I assure the hon. Gentleman and others who are concerned about the Crown Estate that we will continue to work to make it more accountable, more transparent and more focused on Scotland’s and the rest of the UK’s interests.

--- Later in debate ---

[Michael Moore]

None whatever.

Implementing our new financial arrangements will require detailed work by the United Kingdom Government, the Scottish Government and a range of other stakeholders. We will approach the task in a carefully planned and phased way. The Bill provides the overall framework for the new arrangements, but more than legislation alone will be needed to give effect to the measures set out.

[Mr MacNeil]

On fiscal autonomy, how is it that tiny places such as the Faroe Islands, with a population of 48,000, and the Isle of Man, with 100,000, have infinitely more power than the Scottish Parliament, which represents more than 5 million people? Does the Secretary of State not see an anomalous situation there? The Scottish Parliament could easily have fiscal autonomy and control our fuel price, which in the Hebrides is £1.45 a litre, but in the Faroe Islands is £1.10 and 94p for petrol and diesel respectively.

[Michael Moore]

If the hon. Gentleman wishes to make his case in that way, people may or may not pay attention to him. What I am suggesting is based on Scotland’s size and where it is within the United Kingdom. I respect the fact that he and I fundamentally disagree about our vision for the future of Scotland. Those of us who are committed to the United Kingdom want a sustainable new financial basis on which Scotland is part of the Union. We believe that the Bill provides that basis, unlike the proposals that his party advocates.

The Bill and the Command Paper are not just about finance. The Calman commission examined the whole of the devolution arrangements and found that the division of policy responsibilities in the original Scotland Act worked well. It did, however, make recommendations to improve it further, which are reflected in the Bill. On justice, we will give the Scottish Parliament the power to legislate on air weapons, and give Scottish Ministers the power to set the drink-drive limit and a Scottish national speed limit. On health, we will give Scottish Ministers the power to decide which doctors in Scotland should be able to use drugs for the treatment of addiction. We will give the Scottish Government a formal role in key appointments to the BBC Trust and the Crown Estate.