Phone Hacking

Michael McCann Excerpts

Wednesday 6th July 2011 Commons Chamber

[The Attorney-General]

I entirely agree with what the right hon. Gentleman says and I am happy to go away and consider it. As I have said, a lawyer’s involvement in any matter must ultimately be reconciled with the professional code of conduct and the question of whether any conflict of interest exists. Beyond that, I shall write to the right hon. Gentleman when I have had an opportunity to consider the matter.

Before we were diverted by the subject of Lord Macdonald, I was mentioning the fact that the media reported fresh allegations in 2009. In November 2010, the Metropolitan police approached the CPS for advice about the prospects of bringing further charges. Owing to the non-co-operation of witnesses and the lack of further evidence, however, criminal charges could not be brought. The Metropolitan police asked the News of the World for any new material in January of this year.

Following developments in the civil courts, the CPS then agreed to review everything the Metropolitan police have in their possession to ascertain whether there was any material that could form evidence in any future criminal prosecution for phone hacking. On 26 January this year, in view of the seriousness of the allegations and the fresh information that had come to light, the Metropolitan police announced a new investigation. That investigation, Operation Weeting, is led by Deputy Assistant Commissioner Sue Akers of the specialist crime directorate, which is an entirely different unit within the Metropolitan police from that which carried out the original investigation in 2006.

The Metropolitan police now have 45 experienced police officers working on the case, which illustrates how seriously they are taking this new investigation. It is precisely because of the new investigation that new information is progressively coming to light that is the subject on which the debate requested by the hon. Member for Rhondda has been based. As the Prime Minister has said, the police must be allowed to pursue their criminal investigation in the most vigorous way they can to get to the truth. I simply say to the House that that is one reason why Ministers will not be making pronouncements in detail on some of the matters that the hon. Member for Rhondda has raised.

It is right to point out, as the hon. Gentleman has done, that quite a large number of inquiries have been taking place. We have a CPS review, we have the police pursuing their investigations, we have had a number of activities by the Select Committee on Standards and Privileges and we have also had work done by the Select Committee on Culture, Media and Sport. I hope that the House may derive from all that some reassurance that the issues surrounding these allegations are being taken very seriously. I take them very seriously and it is essential that no stone should be left unturned in ensuring that anyone who is guilty of any criminal offence is brought to justice and that the public are provided, at the end of day, with the truth about has happened and about the lessons needed to ensure that there is no repetition in future.

[Mr Michael McCann (East Kilbride, Strathaven and Lesmahagow) (Lab)]

May I ask the Attorney-General a simple question? Why did it take so long for these issues to be taken seriously?

[The Attorney-General]

May I make a couple of remarks? This Government have been in office since May 2010 and these matters clearly originated some time prior to that. Moreover, I simply point out that the issues reviving in the way they have date back to just before Christmas. The world is not a perfect place, but I note the rather fair comment that the hon. Member for Rhondda made in opening the debate. The House may need to be judgmental about itself in a number of ways, but I rather doubt that it should be selective in how it passes those judgments. In those circumstances, I am satisfied that the Government have acted properly in the past few months in responding to the way this story has developed. I am also satisfied, and I hope the House is satisfied, that the Prime Minister has responded properly to the latest allegations that have emerged today.

--- Later in debate ---

[Mr Adrian Sanders (Torbay) (LD)]

As we have heard, the phone hacking scandal has been examined twice by the Select Committee on Culture, Media and Sport, of which I am a member. Our report published in July 2007 examined the self-regulation—or lack of it—of the press, partly in the light of the Goodman-Mulcaire revelations. It was claimed that the practice had been a one-off, but, even then, there was serious concern that the problem might be more widespread and that more investigation was needed.

The Press Complaints Commission had appeared toothless, while reports from the Information Commissioner in 2006 had hinted that illegal activity of all sorts was taking place, driven by the desire of tabloid newspapers—not just News International—to print sensational stories. Revelations in 2009 and 2010 forced us to look at the matter again. There was news that phone companies had positively identified a large number of probable and definite victims, information that Scotland Yard had refused to release and about which it was coy to the point of dissembling. It was becoming clear that Scotland Yard itself had not been handling the inquiry satisfactorily and that only the pursuit of the case by other media outlets was forcing any progress at all.

As the House knows, our inquiry concluded that we had not been told the truth. Our report stated:

“We strongly condemn this behaviour which reinforces the widely held impression that the press generally regard themselves as unaccountable and that News International in particular has sought to conceal the truth about what really occurred.”

[Mr Michael McCann (East Kilbride, Strathaven and Lesmahagow) (Lab)]

I do not know whether the hon. Gentleman heard yesterday’s interview on Radio 5 Live with my hon. Friend the Member for West Bromwich East (Mr Watson), in which Stephen Abell, the director of the Press Complaints Commission, refused to accept any responsibility whatsoever for the behaviour of the press. I promoted a debate in the House on the self-regulation of the press. Does the hon. Gentleman agree with me that now is the time for a root-and-branch review of the commission?

[Mr Sanders]

I did not hear that interview, but when one considers the Press Complaints Commission, the phrase “chocolate teapot”, or indeed the phrase “fishnet condom”, comes to mind.

Our 2007 inquiry had elicited a response from News International that it had carried out a full inquiry itself and was satisfied that the Mulcaire-Goodman case was isolated. That was patently untrue. Our second inquiry encountered more obstacles: Goodman and Mulcaire refused to present evidence, as did Rebekah Brooks. More worrying were the attitude and answers of Scotland Yard.

I return to the point that I made to the Prime Minister today. We cannot have confidence in an investigation by the Metropolitan police; we can have confidence only in a full judicial inquiry with a judge who can take witnesses under oath, ask questions under oath, seek papers, and subpoena witnesses to appear. We desperately need that inquiry. Clearly, where there are allegations of criminal acts or there is the potential for collusion between suspects and the police, a more rigorous investigation is required than, sadly, a Select Committee can offer. It is also clear that we need to extend the scope beyond News International. Operation Motorman highlighted that the Daily Mail was trading most prolifically in illicit personal information, while the Daily Mirror, when under the auspices of Piers Morgan, is suspected of using voicemail interception to reveal Sven-Goran Eriksson’s affair with Ulrika Jonsson. Given that there are questions over Scotland Yard’s handling of the current case, it is essential that its actions are reviewed independently and that future action against suspected phone hackers does not remain solely the domain of the Met.

When the Culture, Media and Sport Committee looked at the first investigation under Andy Hayman, it found that there was the air of Inspector Clouseau about it, but as the subsequent investigation under John Yates progressed one almost got the impression that something far more sinister was at work. The revelations to date show that the police must have known far more than they let on, and that there is considerable scope for them to have misled Members of the House on several occasions.

Finally, let me say that I am very grateful to the hon. Member for Rhondda (Chris Bryant) for ensuring that we can hold this debate, and the whole House should be grateful to him for that as well.

Voting by Prisoners

Michael McCann Excerpts

Thursday 10th February 2011 Commons Chamber

[Mr Michael McCann (East Kilbride, Strathaven and Lesmahagow) (Lab)]

I support the motion, particularly the part noting that this House should be the place where legislative decisions of this nature are made. There have been a number of contributions from learned Members, but I should like to take the debate in a different direction. I read with interest the report, “Voting by convicted prisoners: summary of evidence”, of the Select Committee on Political and Constitutional Reform, which states at paragraph 4:

“We took the evidence summarised in this Report with a view to exploring the current legal position, not with a view to questioning whether extending the right to vote to convicted prisoners in certain circumstances would be philosophically, morally or politically justifiable.”

Those words are important because those are exactly the kind of judgments that our constituents expect us to make and to use in the Chamber. However sophisticated or complicated the arguments get, this is about a basic belief system and whether giving prisoners the right to vote is right or wrong. I take the view that someone who has committed a serious crime or series of crimes and who has been incarcerated, apart from the exclusions that have been mentioned already, should lose that right.

I am not prepared to flinch from that position and I shall tell hon. Members why. The general public might not wish to discuss the details of the principle of proportionality put forward by Aidan O’Neill and they might not be too concerned about Lord Mackay’s conclusion that the right to vote is not an absolute right, but they know instinctively when something is right or wrong. I believe that the public think it is wrong to give prisoners the vote.

[Tom Brake]

Have you asked them?

[Mr McCann]

I am just about to go into that. I have asked them, because I wanted to test my beliefs and whether my view that it would be wrong to give prisoners the vote would be taken on board by the public who elected me. The reaction I got from people was very similar. After I explained the issue, there was a pregnant pause because people thought that I was about to give them the punch line to a joke, rather than tell them about an issue that we were going to debate in Parliament. Then a look of disbelief came across their face at the very thought of giving criminals the right to vote.

I was lucky enough to visit Sandhurst earlier this week along with other hon. Members as part of the armed forces parliamentary scheme. We saw young men and women being prepared to be the officers of the future. In about six months’ time they will be serving in Afghanistan. I took that opportunity to ask those fine young men and women, as a litmus test, whether they believed it was right to give prisoners the vote. To an individual, they said no; it is very important to listen to them as well.

It is interesting to listen to the people who come to the debate from the other side. Liberty argues that denying prisoners the vote undermines the Human Rights Act, but I believe the reverse is true. The Howard League for Penal Reform suggests—ludicrously, in my opinion—that extending the right to vote to prisoners would be a natural progression of the ECHR. I disagree with that completely: it is an example of how risible an argument can become when it is over-egged.

What should we say to people who think we are over-hyping this issue when we say that rapists, paedophiles and murderers will get the vote? I looked up three examples of people who have been imprisoned for less than four years. Are we going to give the vote to Corey Smith, aged 19? He was sentenced to just under four years for threatening to stab commuters on the Central line in a three-week crime wave in December. Should we give the vote to the Mazambi family, three of whom were convicted for less than four years for stealing £500,000 from Comic Relief? That money should have gone to good causes. What about the motoring case of Jonathan Francis McGonagle, aged 23? He was sentenced to less than four years for killing a 25-year-old pedestrian while being drunk in charge of a car. Are they the type of people who should be given the vote?

[Simon Hughes]

If I make a speech today, I am not going to argue for a blanket right to vote for prisoners, but what does the hon. Gentleman say about the fact that in most other countries that subscribe to the Council of Europe the same view is not taken and the right to vote is given to some prisoners? What is the difference between the British culture and the rest of Europe that means that people just a few miles away have such very different views?

[Mr McCann]

Because we are different. Northern Europeans’ view of life can be somewhat different to that of southern Europeans. They are entitled to their point of view, as are we; as Members of this House, we are entitled to take decisions on these matters. I dismiss the right hon. Gentleman’s point because this is about interpreting the European convention on human rights and how it is incorporated into UK law.

I was mindful of the words of Louis D. Brandeis, who was an associate justice of the Supreme Court in the United States of America. That gentleman said:

“If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.”

That is an important point, which we should remember.

In my opinion, laws that command the support of Members of the House are being manipulated in unacceptable ways. It is perverse to argue that those who break our laws, and who have been incarcerated for doing so, should be given the right to vote, and there is a burden of responsibility for Members in this House to speak out. I have done so today and I will be backing the motion.