Matthew Offord
Main Page: Matthew Offord (Conservative - Hendon)Department Debates - View all Matthew Offord's debates with the Department for Work and Pensions
(11 years ago)
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Mark Hendrick
I totally agree with the hon. Gentleman.
Taking people out of income tax is great, and we want to take people out of income tax, but how many people have lost tax credits? Many people who have been taken out of income tax will find, particularly if they have children, that they are not better off.
In the past few weeks, we have seen the Government prepared to dabble with the welfare and jobs of 3 million people by putting at risk our membership of the European Union. The Conservatives have promised to hold a referendum on renegotiating the terms of British membership. Let me be blunt: many Government Members do not want renegotiation, or the sort of renegotiation that the Prime Minister is likely to achieve—they want out. We will not know the terms of our trading relationship with the EU if we leave. We will have the same lack of benefits as Norway and Switzerland: they have no involvement or control over EU laws and directives, but are obliged to adopt them if they wish to continue to trade with the EU. We will have a referendum on the possibility of the UK leaving the EU without knowing precisely the trading or economic consequences of withdrawal. If we do leave, it will cost hundreds of thousands of jobs.
Dr Matthew Offord (Hendon) (Con)
The hon. Gentleman is making his position clear, but I would be grateful if he explained where he found that figure of hundreds of thousands of lost jobs.
Mark Hendrick
Hundreds of thousands is a small percentage of the 3 million jobs tied up in our business and trade with the EU. We will not know the exact consequences of leaving, and we cannot negotiate, while we are still a member, what our trading terms with the EU would be if we left. The German and French Governments—any Government worth their salt—would not be willing to negotiate before a referendum to tell us exactly what the terms would be if we voted no.
Mark Hendrick
The 3 million figure comes from the European Commission and many other respected and independent bodies. [Interruption.] The hon. Gentleman, from a sedentary position, wishes to challenge that figure. Can he give me a figure and substantiate it? Voting no in the referendum will have a serious impact. We can argue about whether it will affect hundreds of thousands of jobs or up to 1 million jobs, but it will have a serious impact on employment and our ability to trade.
Many people are saying that due to globalisation we are trading more with countries such as China and India. That is welcome, but is no substitute for the market we have on our doorstep—the EU. Any future trade with the EU, should we choose to leave, will be conducted on terms dictated by the remaining members of the EU, not a British Government. That will have a big impact on jobs and a bigger impact on the prosperity of this country.
Dr Matthew Offord (Hendon) (Con)
I rather enjoyed the contribution of the hon. Member for Preston (Mark Hendrick). At one stage, I think I was the only person in the Chamber listening to him, as there was a gathering around the Chair. [Interruption.] At least one other Member was listening. I found the contribution interesting; I did not agree with everything he said, but I thank him for coming along today and giving us an insight into his ideas.
I want to speak about the Queen’s Speech. The Government have made good progress in the past three years. Yes, we still have problems with our economy, but no one expected it to turn around in the time we have had so far. Nevertheless, we are fixing things, such as our welfare system, to introduce greater fairness.
We are reintroducing different tax regimes, so that fewer people in this country pay tax. We are talking about taking 2 million people across the country out of tax. In my constituency, 49,360 people will be taken out of tax. That is all good, but when we talk about immigration—which I shall come to—we should recognise that there are two stages to it: the accession of people from Europe and the rest, from outside. We have decreased immigration from outside Europe by a third. We have also cut crime by 10%, which is no mean feat either. We should also remind ourselves that we have made significant progress in cutting the Labour party’s deficit, which we inherited.
Mark Hendrick
The hon. Gentleman mentions cutting non-EU immigration by 30%. Can he tell me how many of those affected are people who would have been students, contributing to this country’s economy in cities such as Preston, in my constituency, which is dependent on foreign students for the local economy?
Dr Offord
I cannot tell the hon. Gentleman about Preston, but I can tell him about Middlesex university in my area, which is also suffering from the kind of problems he describes. I also have the National Institute for Medical Research in my constituency. It, too, has problems getting PhD students. That is why I feel that our focus has been on the wrong kind of immigrants. The problems we have in this country—those that have been raised by political parties such as the UK Independence party—are to do with EU migration. For example, Kiplings, the Indian restaurant in my constituency, has a problem getting a curry chef. The local Chinese restaurant also has a problem, because it cannot get people from outside the EU. That is a problem the Government need to face.
Let me return to the Queen’s Speech. There are some things I am very pleased about. My hon. Friend the Member for South Basildon and East Thurrock (Stephen Metcalfe) spoke eloquently about tackling antisocial behaviour in his constituency. We have a Bill to address that. I look forward to seeing the detail; my concern is that we have had many Bills to deal with antisocial behaviour, since way back when Tony Blair was Prime Minister. My feeling is that we probably need a cultural change in our society rather than more legislation. There seems to be something fundamentally wrong with people’s beliefs about their responsibilities and activities in public and the way they impact on others, from simple things such as spitting in the street to putting their feet on bus seats. These are all problems that contribute to antisocial behaviour and a general sense of unease in society among those whom we live alongside.
I also look forward to the Department for Work and Pensions bringing forward its Bill to address pensions inequality. Pensioners have had a hard time in our country for many years. I look forward to seeing proposals that will make it easier for working people to contribute to their pensions, particularly as other significant changes have been made.
The final issue I am keen to address is immigration. This is a debate about jobs and business—the economy encompasses both jobs and business—and immigration, as we have heard, is a major part of that. One thing I like about the debate on the Queen’s Speech is listening to Members’ experiences in their own constituencies, which we have heard today from my hon. Friend the Member for Tamworth (Christopher Pincher), for example. We have also heard about the experiences of the hon. Member for North Durham (Mr Jones). It is useful—not only for Members such as myself, but for Ministers too—to hear about the problems faced by Back Benchers. We have already heard that the Chancellor is listening—no doubt he was listening to the shadow Business Secretary, and I hope he is listening to me now and can hear about the problems of my constituency.
However, while I was working in my office yesterday, I heard an histrionic speech by an Opposition Member. She was talking about immigration, saying that doctors, nurses and landlords should not be Border Agency guards. There has never been a proposal for that to happen. I believe that the proposal to require landlords to check the veracity and identity of those living in their properties is a good one. I cannot speak for others, but I have rented property to Middlesex university students who were not from the EU or this country. I always made sure that I knew where they came from and that they could pay their rent. That is a sensible thing to do, and most landlords probably do it already.
We have also heard about health tourists coming to this country. We do have people coming here to seek elective or semi-elective surgery—people who might decide that they want their child born here, for instance. It is unacceptable for people to come here in the knowledge that very soon they will have a child, because it has many repercussions for this country.
Ms Abbott
The hon. Gentleman will be aware that the Royal College of General Practitioners is quite clear that its members have a primary duty to heal the sick and they are simply not willing to be immigration officers. On the question of landlord checks, what will the hon. Gentleman do when his constituents come to tell him that their children, third generation British nationals, are being asked for their passport before they can rent a room?
Dr Offord
I am sure they will welcome the fact that there will be fairness, and everyone is treated the same. That is what they would like. As we have seen across the country—some Members appear to be ignoring what has happened in the country over the past week or two —people want their concerns about immigration to be taken seriously. The hon. Lady talks about doctors and nurses acting as border guards, but what happens when we open a bank account? We are required to show proof of identity in many different ways, including utility bills, to prove where we live. Why do we do that? Because of the Terrorism Act 2000. In some areas, that will have contributed to a decrease in terrorist funding. I have to say that when I go into banks, particularly one I already bank with, they already know that I am a British subject and that I receive an income from this country. Such a mechanism is already in place.
Dr Offord
I shall not give way yet, as the hon. Lady might like to hear what I have to say. Let us not forget that in 2001, the right hon. Member for Sheffield, Brightside and Hillsborough (Mr Blunkett) introduced his asylum Bill, which ensured that carriers such as lorries received a fine if someone was found stowed in their lorry. It was nothing to do with the driver if someone had decided to stowaway on a lorry coming back from France, but they, not doctors and nurses, were required to be border guards.
Ms Abbott
I only hope that residents in Hendon are hearing the hon. Gentleman’s enthusiasm for a kind of pass law for themselves and their children. My specific point about so-called “health tourism” is that doctors take a Hippocratic oath, and all the Royal Colleges have made it clear that they are not willing to breach that oath in order to undertake immigration check duties. If somebody comes to them ill, they have sworn an oath to help them. Is the hon. Gentleman aware, furthermore, of the public health implications of trying to stop people from getting the health care that they may desperately need?
Dr Offord
As I said earlier—I think the hon. Lady has deliberately decided not to understand what I said—this involves elective and semi-elective surgery and other cases. Sometimes people come into the country when they are pregnant and decide to have their child here. If that is a possibility, they should be prevented from coming here. Secondly, and most importantly, they should be forced to have their own insurance policy. I cannot say whether the hon. Lady has been abroad, but I know that if I go to India or New York and find myself in an accident requiring medical attention, I will receive a wallet biopsy from the ambulance man, which will determine the type of treatment I get. [Interruption.] All we are seeking is the same for this country; it is about fairness. It is not about denying people medical treatment; it is about fairness. [Interruption.] I am going to move on. [Interruption.]
Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle)
Order. We need the debate to be conducted through the Chair rather than to have cross-channel discussions. I understand that the debate is getting a little tense, but I am sure we can get back to where we need to be on the Queen’s Speech.
Dr Offord
I bow to your superior knowledge, Mr Deputy Speaker.
I want to move on to discuss other aspects of immigration and what I would like to see in the Government’s legislative programme. We heard earlier about people entering this country from the EU and migrant countries and about the problems they have caused. I have a lot of problems with this in my constituency. In Edgware, for example, several people living in garages told me that they could not afford to go home. On a recent ward visit to Watford Way in Hendon, one of my constituents and I went to an old commercial garage in which scores of people were living rough. These were people who beg locally and they were visibly east European. I spoke to some of them who claimed that they did not have the money to get back home. Funds are available, however, and I should like them to make use of them, because their current lifestyle is unacceptable. That is the face of Labour’s immigration policy in the last decade: people sleeping in garages in my constituency.
As recently as this week, we saw members of the Metropolitan police on horseback going to areas around Marble Arch, rounding up people—particularly Bulgarians and Romanians—and checking their identification papers to establish what they are doing, who they are and why they are here. At present, as the House knows, they are not allowed to work, but those restrictions will soon end, and they will have three months in which to demonstrate that they can support themselves. If they cannot do that, the Border Agency will summon them for an interview and ask them what they are doing. If they refuse to turn up, there is nothing that the agency can do. It should be an arrestable offence not to turn up, but it is not, and they can be picked up again in future sweeps. Moreover, they can leave the country and come back again, in which event their three-months time frame will start all over again. The Immigration Bill should address some of those points, and I hope that the Government have heard my plea.
I now want to talk about what will not be in the Bill. The hon. Member for Poplar and Limehouse (Jim Fitzpatrick)—who is not in the Chamber at present, but who has been described as “the popular Member for Limehouse—referred to some of the issues that would not be included, but omitted to mention provision for a referendum on Britain’s membership of the European Union.
Lord Lawson made his position clear at the weekend. Within hours, the Deputy Prime Minister had decided that he knew better than Lord Lawson and, indeed, better than anyone else. He said:
“There are 3 million of our fellow countrymen and women in this country whose jobs rely directly on our participation and role and place in what is after all the largest borderless single market.”
The hon. Member for Preston also gave that figure. I asked him where he had got it, a question that I do not believe he was able to answer.
Dr Offord
That is not correct. I remember the figure being bandied about a decade or so ago, when I was working at the BBC. We used regularly to fact-check such things.
In 2000, research conducted by economists at London South Bank university suggested that about 2.5 million people owed their jobs directly to exports of goods and services to countries in the European Union, and that a further 900,000 jobs had been created indirectly by trade with the continent. If we left the single market, however, Britons would not be simply thrown on the dole, for the simple reason that Britain would still be able to trade with countries in Europe even if it were not a member of the EU. I understand that 20 countries continue to do so. Switzerland and Norway, for instance, have negotiated free trade agreements with the bloc without signing up.
Mark Hendrick
The hon. Gentleman will be aware that Switzerland and Norway have to abide by all the EU regulations and directives pertaining to the single market, but have no control over or say in them because they are not EU members. While enjoying some of the benefits of being in the single market, they have none of the decision-making powers that membership of the EU confers. If we leave the EU, we will have to start from scratch, and will probably have to do exactly what Norway, in particular, is doing: accept, wholesale—
Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle)
Order. The hon. Member for Preston (Mark Hendrick) made a 19-minute speech, and has made, I think, five interventions since then. Interventions should not be a way of making another speech. They must be short, because others wish to speak.
Dr Offord
Let me respond briefly to the hon. Gentleman’s point by saying that I think there are certain products that parts of the EU cannot do without. For instance, I know that places such as Italy could not do without Lancashire cheese. I have tasted that very cheese in your room on occasion, Mr Deputy Speaker, during some of your receptions.
Was the Deputy Prime Minister claiming, in his “3 million” statement, that Britain would not negotiate a reciprocal deal to avoid tariffs? I should like to know the answer to that, particularly given that we import more from the EU as a whole than we export to it.
According to the National Institute of Economic and Social Research, there is
“no reason to suppose that unemployment would rise significantly if the UK were to withdraw from the EU. Withdrawal could cause disruption”
—I acknowledge that—
“but it is most unlikely that export sales to EU markets would cease completely”.
The hon. Member for Poplar and Limehouse quoted from The Daily Telegraph. One of the quotes cited the Institute of Directors, which in 2000 came to the opposite conclusion to that of South Bank university. It estimated that there was a net cost to the UK from staying out of the EU of about 1.75% of GDP, which was about £15 billion at the time, but all those figures are completely worthless now as so much has changed since then. We were promised no more boom and bust, but we now realise that that is not the case—it has not been the case for the past couple of years.
All the underlying calculations are simply wrong now, and we no longer know what the true situation would be. I therefore ask the Department for Business, Innovation and Skills to commission a cost-benefit analysis on Britain’s continued membership of the EU, to establish what the economic consequences of Britain’s withdrawal would be. I ask it to do that for no other reason than that the Business Secretary said in opening today’s debate that he was interested in dealing with “factoids”, and I would like to see the relevant factoids. I would also like the Deputy Prime Minister to use the correct factoids, instead of scaremongering people into thinking that Britain cannot leave the EU.
There has been some talk about the UK Independence party today, and I, too, will mention it briefly. I believe that in the past couple of weeks UKIP has come to be seen by some as offering a panacea for all the problems of the UK, but I do not believe that is true. I do not think its members and supporters are all fruitcakes, nuts and loops either, and I believe we need to take them on on policy—or, rather, on their lack of policies. I agree with them in some areas, however, and many people voted for UKIP last week not because they want UKIP to be elected, but because they want some of the policies that it raises to be addressed, and they are looking to us to do that. It is wrong for Members on either side of this House to reject UKIP supporters, and it sends out a message that the political class is not listening. Gillian Duffy stated the case well in the 2010 general election, and we ignore it at our peril. I therefore respectfully ask you, Mr Deputy Speaker, to ask Mr Speaker to select the amendment in the name of my hon. Friend the Member for Basildon and Billericay (Mr Baron), to which I have added my name, so that we can have an opportunity to vote on it next week.