Wales Bill

Mark Williams Excerpts

Monday 12th September 2016 Commons Chamber

[Alun Cairns]

The hon. Gentleman has made an important point and contributed in Committee to that effect, which considerably influenced a number of Members who had raised questions and concerns as the issue was debated. The hon. Gentleman’s expertise in this area should be well-heeded by those who want to see Wales flourish with a distinctive body of Welsh law, but who also recognise that the joint jurisdiction has worked and served well and effectively, and sends a clear message to potential investors and operators in Wales over the clarity and simplicity that is provided.

Many of the recommendations relating to administrative devolution in fact reflect the current position in Wales: the senior courts already sit in Wales, the administration of Welsh courts is overseen by HMCTS Wales, and court sittings are co-ordinated locally. The broader question of the case for devolving legislative responsibility was one of the key issues examined in the cross-party discussions under the St David’s Day process. Members will be aware that, as set out in the St David’s Day agreement, there is no political consensus to devolve justice. My party’s 2015 election manifesto made it clear that we would continue to reserve justice and policing. The Government are fully committed to maintaining the single legal jurisdiction of England and Wales. It has served Wales very well. It is also our firm view that it is the most effective, efficient and consistent way to deliver justice.

[Mr Mark Williams (Ceredigion) (LD)]

The right hon. Gentleman alluded to the Silk report, but Silk talks about the need to review the system. I appreciate the standpoint of the right hon. Gentleman and his party, but this is an evolving picture, and does that not necessitate the recommendation of the Wales Governance Centre’s recent report that we should at least have a commission to look at these matters over a period of time?

[Alun Cairns]

I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for the way in which he has made his intervention, but I would still underline the stability of the existing system and the certainty it provides. The title of the St David’s Day agreement was “Powers for a purpose” and I am still seeking to understand what additional purpose would be provided to anyone living or working Wales should there be a separate jurisdiction.

--- Later in debate ---

[Liz Saville Roberts]

I hope the hon. Gentleman will forgive me; I thought I had explained that previously.

Our proposal will require no extra court construction. We have the structures for justice in place already. What is proposed is a dividing of those court structures, as the amendments explain. This was recommended by a number of experts in these areas, including the Silk Commission and the vast majority of witnesses to the Welsh Affairs Committee. I must admit that on the Committee we almost felt that we were seeking witnesses to give an alternative view. The vast majority spoke in favour of a distinct or separate jurisdiction.

[Mr Mark Williams]

I agree with the hon. Lady’s last comment, having served alongside her on the Welsh Affairs Committee. She mentions Paul Silk, who spoke about the need to review this matter within 10 years. The “Justice in Wales” report from the Wales Governance Centre referred to a standing commission. I think that was the view of the First Minister as well, when he announced the Bill that the hon. Lady mentioned. Given that there is an evolving picture, surely we should be monitoring it with a view to changing it in the near future? I may well share the final destination that she and her hon. Friends seek to reach, but there is a case for carrying people forward on the basis of experience over the next few years.

[Liz Saville Roberts]

I agree that we are seeing a gradual momentum in favour of the change. As I said earlier, if not now, when? We in Plaid Cymru feel that objections, rather than any real argument, are being cast up in front of us. We know that we are travelling on a trajectory. When will we reach the end point, without hindrances being thrown in our way?

Other advocates of our approach include Sir Roderick Evans, QC, the former High Court judge and pro-chancellor of Swansea University, barrister Rhodri Williams, QC, and solicitor Michael Imperato—greatly respected lawyers who felt so strongly about the issue that they created the Justice for Wales group. Further supporters were the constitutional experts at the Wales Governance Centre and the UCL constitution unit. Even the Lord Chief Justice of England and Wales, Lord Thomas of Cwmgiedd, whom I quoted in the last debate on the Bill, has spoken in favour of a distinct legal jurisdiction.

I know that many people in the Minister’s party have spent the first half of this year telling us not to listen to experts, but I implore him to do so in this instance. He should drop the political and ideological obsession with a unified Welsh and English legal jurisdiction and take heed of the clear and logical advice of so many experts on this issue. With a new constitutional settlement, an increasingly divergent statute book, and Brexit set to change the shape of the UK, it is time for the Government to recognise the facts and the need for a distinct legal jurisdiction in Wales.

--- Later in debate ---

[Jonathan Edwards]

The Secretary of State is telling us that he will introduce a statutory instrument once the negotiations are complete. In that regard, I will not be pressing the matter to a vote. I am glad that it is now on the record that he will keep that promise, which was made to the people of Wales in successive statements in the House by the former Prime Minister. Many people in Wales are slightly confused about why the promise has not been included in the Bill, but that is positive news, so I will cut my speech in half.

I would, however, like to raise an associated point about the way in which the franchise may be altered—or, to put it another way, butchered—by siphoning off the more lucrative routes. The Secretary of State is fully aware that those lucrative routes are very valuable to the franchise. The Welsh Government have to put in a huge subsidy, as I understand it, and £700 million was paid between 2011-12 and 2014-15. If those routes are taken away from the franchise, the public subsidy paid by the people of Wales for that franchise will increase significantly.

[Mr Mark Williams]

The hon. Gentleman makes an excellent point about the finances of any such butchery, as he describes it. Does he agree with the great concern of several of my constituents about the impact of that butchery more generally in west Wales on well-established long-distance trade routes between Aberystwyth and Birmingham International or Manchester?

[Jonathan Edwards]

The hon. Gentleman makes a valuable point. That is why the franchise was constructed as it was, and it would be a travesty if the more lucrative routes were taken away. In his summing up, I would be grateful if the Secretary of State alleviated some of those fears.

Now that the Secretary of State has responded positively to some of the main issues that I wanted to raise, I will quickly turn to some of the other amendments in the group—two tabled by the Official Opposition, and the other by the Government—before I conclude. Plaid Cymru welcomes amendment 2, which would devolve the community infrastructure levy. As the hon. Member for Llanelli (Nia Griffith) said, it is associated with local government functions, and it makes total sense to synergise that levy in a devolved context. If the Labour party decide to press the amendment to a vote, we will support it.

In many ways, the principle behind amendment 2 is the same as that behind the Government new clause on the police and crime commissioner elections: because those elections are reserved, it is necessary to put that in the Bill. Amendment 2 clearly concerns something that is associated with a devolved function. I ask the Secretary of State to reconsider his position, if not today, then when the Bill is debated in the other place.

New clause 3 would remove restrictions in the Railways Act 1993 on certain public sector bodies bidding to operate a rail franchise in Wales. That is a long-standing Plaid Cymru policy. Many Labour Members, not least the shadow Secretary of State for Wales, have made powerful speeches about it, and when the time comes for a Division on the new clause, Plaid Cymru will support it. Based on what the Secretary of State said in his intervention, the new clause is not premature. It is pertinent that we make progress on it, and we will support the Labour party in the Division Lobby later.

Lastly, Government amendment 27 is a technical change relating to the wording around nationally significant infrastructure projects, and we see no reason to oppose it.

--- Later in debate ---

as Dylan Thomas might have said. However, the process goes on, and how we deal with that will be pivotal in the future. That is why the north Wales devolution ideas should be part of that process.

[Mr Mark Williams]

Thank you, Mr Deputy Speaker, for calling me as, I think, the last speaker on the first group of amendments. This Report stage has been characterised by rather more interest—

[Jonathan Edwards]

Apart from among the Tories.

[Mr Williams]

Indeed. There is increased enthusiasm for the Bill, comparing attendance on Report with that in Committee, at least on the Opposition Benches.

I very much concur with the hon. Member for Clwyd South (Susan Elan Jones) on what she said about the particular relevance of some of the amendments, not least the one on betting terminals, amendment 1, as well as new clause 2. A big overarching issue with such Bills is sometimes the question: how is devolution relevant to my life? If there ever was an amendment that would have direct relevance to how people live their lives and are able to be supported in their lives, it is that amendment.

New clause 3 on rail franchising is another such amendment. The hon. Member for Carmarthen East and Dinefwr (Jonathan Edwards) kindly allowed me to intervene on that point. Whether we have the capacity to control the rail network from Aberystwyth to Birmingham International airport will have a direct effect on my local economy, and prove a great convenience or inconvenience to many of my constituents. Such important issues are about making devolution relevant, and about making important decisions that are relevant at the most appropriate level. I therefore very much support at least those two amendments.

I want to say a few words about amendment 60, tabled by the hon. Member for Dwyfor Meirionnydd (Liz Saville Roberts), whom I consider a friend. She serves with great diligence on the Welsh Affairs Committee. Of all the issues we looked at during pre-legislative scrutiny of the now infamous Bill, which had so many flaws, the issue that gained most prominence was that of distinct or separate jurisdictions. The Members who have asked what that actually means should look at the amendment in detail. Indeed, they should also look at the excellent report that the Wales Governance Centre has produced today, which gives a clear indication of why this issue is important.

I happen to share, as does my party, many of the aspirations of my Plaid Cymru friends, but my hesitancy on amendment 60 is about the timing. The executive summary the of Wales Governance Centre report, which is very timely, says that

“the administration of justice will require continuing reform to accommodate increasing divergence between the laws and policies of England and Wales.”

That is a fact. Twenty-four pieces of legislation were passed during the last Assembly term, and there is a growing body of Welsh law that requires attention.

Sadly, the Government have shut the door on the issue. They set up a joint working group. I have seen the terms of reference, but I have not seen any report from the group. We do not know how the meetings have been undertaken, what the outcomes will be or what the outcomes will feed into in the future. That is why I look back with some regret to the Committee stage, during which an amendment calling for a commission on justice in Wales was rejected. As such divergence evolves and a body of Welsh law—it is recognised in this Bill, to the Government’s credit—emerges, there will be nowhere for it to go, which is why the idea of a commission was so important.

My problem with amendment 60 is that, as night turns into day, a great leap will be necessary. As Silk suggested, I think we need to consider a period of review and reflection—not vague, cul-de-sac, long-grass reflection, but something set up in statute, as would have been done by the official Opposition’s amendment in Committee, moved by the hon. Member for Newport West (Paul Flynn). The Wales Governance Centre has endorsed the idea of the need to look at and reflect on these issues, and to return to them in due course. Believe it or not, I suggest this issue will not go away; it will return. To our regret, the Government have shut the door on this issue.

Paul Silk said:

“There should be a review within ten years of the case for devolving legislative responsibility for the court service, sentencing, legal aid, the CPS and the judiciary to the National Assembly.”

His report is now an increasingly dated document. I have referred to it repeatedly, but it was some time ago. When the First Minister produced the Government and Laws in Wales Bill—the Plaid Cymru research department has mischievously used the wording of the Labour party’s Bill, as it was right to do in tabling its amendment—he said something very important when questioned by my colleague Kirsty Williams. He said, in accordance with Silk:

“Let’s not pretend that the devolution of justice is easy or that it can be done quickly. At the very beginning, we have to set up the expertise within Government to deal with issues of justice and to deal with the penal system, and that does take a long lead-in time. So, I think it’s a reasonable period of time—that 10-year period—in order to see justice devolved.”

[Jonathan Edwards]

The hon. Gentleman will be aware that our amendment 60 is, line for line, what the Welsh Government introduced as their alternative Wales Bill.

[Mr Williams]

The hon. Gentleman is quite right. I have studied the amendment very carefully, as indeed I studied the Bill that the First Minister presented to the National Assembly and the exchanges between the party leaders about the wording of the Bill on 8 March. The First Minister laid great emphasis, as did my colleague Kirsty Williams, on the timing, and that is the crucial point. I happen to share the aspiration, but I have concerns about the timing. That is why I cannot support amendment 60 tonight—I will not vote against it—and why I am deeply saddened that the Government have not understood the real importance of the issue.

[Paul Flynn]

I am very grateful to the hon. Gentleman for making that point, which gets to the nub of the problem. Although we are flattered that Plaid Cymru have chosen to use the words of the Welsh Government’s policy as it was a few weeks ago, that policy has matured. In the present circumstances—very much influenced by what the Wales Governance Centre has said—it would be foolish to go ahead with it at this moment. It is premature.

[Mr Williams]

The policy may have matured, but I assert that this issue needs to be monitored, because it will not go away. That is why the responsibility is not on my Plaid Cymru friends or indeed the official Opposition, but on the Government to acknowledge the importance of the issue of separate and distinct jurisdictions and not let it disappear from sight. The issue will not go away, and I have every faith that in five years’ time, the hon. Gentleman will be in the Chamber making the same speech he made earlier about the importance of this issue. The issue will not go away, and the Government need to respond to it.

Question put and agreed to.

New clause 4 accordingly read a Second time, and added to the Bill.

Clause 1

Permanence of the National Assembly for Wales and Welsh Government

Amendments made: 3, page 1, line 5, leave out

“after Part 2 (the Welsh Government)”

and insert

“before Part 1 (National Assembly for Wales)”.

The effect of this amendment and amendments 4, 5, 6, 7 and 8 is that the new sections about the permanence of the Assembly and the Welsh Government, and recognition of Welsh law, are inserted at the beginning of the Government of Wales Act 2006 rather than after Part 2 of that Act.

Amendment 4, page 1, line 7, leave out “2A” and insert “A1”.

Amendment 5, page 1, line 9, leave out “92A” and insert “A1”.

Amendment 6, page 1, line 10, after “Assembly”, insert “established by Part 1”.

Amendment 7, page 1, line 10, after “Government”, insert “established by Part 2”.

Amendment proposed: 60, page 2 leave out lines 4 to 9 and insert—

“Part 2B

Establishment of Two Distinct Jurisdictions

92B Legal jurisdictions of Wales and of England

The legal jurisdiction of England and Wales becomes two legal jurisdictions, that of Wales and that of England.

92C The law of Wales and the law of England

(1) The law of England and Wales is divided into the law of Wales and the law of England.

(2) All of the law that extends to England and Wales immediately before the coming into force of this section—

(a) except in so far as it applies only in relation to England, is to extend to Wales (and becomes the law of Wales), and

(b) except in so far as it applies only in relation to Wales, is to extend to England (and becomes the law of England).

(3) In this section “law” includes—

(a) rules and principles of common law and equity,

(b) provision made by virtue of an Act of the United Kingdom Parliament, an Act of the Welsh Parliament or an Act or Measure of the National Assembly for Wales, and

(c) provision made pursuant to the prerogative.

(4) Any provision of any enactment or instrument enacted or made, but not in force, when subsection (1) comes into force is to be treated for the purposes of that subsection as part of the law that extends to England and Wales (but this subsection does not affect provision made for its coming into force).

92D Senior Courts system

(1) The Senior Courts of England and Wales cease to exist (except for the purposes of sections 92H (3) and (4)) and there are established in place of them—

(a) the Senior Courts of Wales, and

(b) the Senior Courts of England.

(2) The Senior Courts of Wales consist of—

(a) the Court of Appeal of Wales,

(b) the High Court of Justice of Wales, and

(c) the Crown Court of Wales, each having the same functions in Wales as are exercisable by the corresponding court in England and Wales immediately before subsection (1) comes into force.

(3) The Senior Courts of England consist of—

(a) the Court of Appeal of England,

(b) the High Court of Justice of England, and

(c) the Crown Court of England,

each having the same functions in England as are exercisable by the corresponding court in England and Wales immediately before subsection (1) comes into force.

(4) For the purposes of this Part—

(a) Her Majesty’s Court of Appeal in England is the court corresponding to the Court of Appeal of Wales and the Court of Appeal of England,

(b) Her Majesty’s High Court of Justice in England is the court corresponding to the High Court of Justice of Wales and the High Court of Justice of England, and

(c) the Crown Court constituted by section 4 of the Courts Act 1971 is the court corresponding to the Crown Court of Wales and the Crown Court of England.

(5) Subject to section 92I—

(a) references in enactments, instruments and other documents to the Senior Courts of England and Wales (however expressed) have effect (as the context requires) as references to the Senior Courts of Wales or the Senior Courts of England, or both; and

(b) references in enactments, instruments and other documents to Her Majesty’s Court of Appeal in England, Her Majesty’s High Court of Justice in England or the Crown Court constituted by section 4 of the Courts Act 1971 (however expressed) have effect (as the context requires) as references to either or both of the courts to which they correspond.

92E County court and family court

(1) The county court and the family court cease to exist (except for the purposes of sections 92H (3) and (4)) and there are established in place of them—

(a) the county court of Wales and the family court of Wales with the same functions in Wales as are exercisable by the county court and the family court (respectively) immediately before this subsection comes into force, and

(b) the county court of England and the family court of England with the same functions in England as are exercisable by the county court and the family court (respectively) immediately before this subsection comes into force.

(2) For the purposes of this Part—

(a) the county court is the court corresponding to the county court of Wales and the county court of England, and

(b) the family court is the court corresponding to the family court of Wales and the family court of England.

(3) Subject to section 92I references in enactments, instruments and other documents to the county court or the family court (however expressed) have effect (as the context requires) as references to either or both of the courts to which they correspond.

92F Judiciary etc.

(1) All of the judges, judicial office-holders and other officers of Her Majesty’s Court of Appeal in England or Her Majesty’s High Court of Justice in England become judges, judicial office-holders or officers of both of the courts to which that court corresponds.

(2) All of the persons by whom the jurisdiction of the Crown Court constituted by section 4 of the Courts Act 1971 is exercisable become the persons by whom the functions of both of the courts to which that court corresponds are exercisable except that (despite section 8(2) of the Senior Courts Act 1981)—

(a) a justice of the peace assigned to a local justice area in England may not by virtue of this subsection exercise functions of the Crown Court of Wales, and

(b) a justice of the peace assigned to a local justice area in Wales may not by virtue of this subsection exercise functions of the Crown Court of England.

(3) All of the judges, judicial office-holders and other officers of the county court become judges, judicial office-holders or officers of the county court of Wales and the county court of England.

(4) All of the judges, judicial office-holders and other officers of the family court become judges, judicial office-holders or officers of the family court of Wales and the family court of England except that (despite section 31C(1)(y) of the Matrimonial and Family Proceedings Act 1984)—

(a) a justice of the peace assigned to a local justice area in England is not a judge of the family court of Wales, and

(b) a justice of the peace assigned to a local justice area in Wales is not a judge of the family court of England.

92G Legal professions

(1) Every legal practitioner who would (but for this Part) at any time after the coming into force of this Act be entitled to carry on a reserved legal activity for the purposes of the law of England and Wales, in proceedings in England and Wales or before the courts of England and Wales, has at that time the same entitlement for the purposes of the law of England and the law of Wales, in proceedings in England and proceedings in Wales and before the courts of England and the courts of Wales.

(2) In this section—

“legal practitioner” means every solicitor, barrister, notary, legal executive, licensed conveyancer, patent attorney, trade mark attorney, law costs draftsman, accountant or other person who, in accordance with the Legal Services Act 2007 (c. 29), is entitled to carry on a reserved legal activity;

“reserved legal activity” has the same meaning as in the Legal Services Act 2007.

92H Division of business between courts of Wales and courts of England

(1) The Senior Courts of Wales, the county court of Wales, the family court of Wales and the justices for local justice areas in Wales are to apply the law extending to Wales (including the rules of private international law relating to the application of foreign law).

(2) The Senior Courts of England, the county court of England, the family court of England and the justices for local justice areas in England are to apply the law extending to England (including the rules of private international law relating to the application of foreign law).

(3) All proceedings, whether civil or criminal, pending in any of the Senior Courts of England and Wales, the county court or the family court (including proceedings in which a judgment or order has been given or made but not enforced) must be transferred by that court to whichever of the courts to which that court corresponds appears appropriate.

(4) The transferred proceedings are to continue as if the case had originated in, and the previous proceedings had been taken in, that other court.

Supplementary

92I Power to make further provision

(1) Her Majesty may by Order in Council make provision (including provision amending or otherwise modifying any enactment or instrument, including this Act) that appears appropriate in consequence of, or otherwise in connection with, the provision made by this Part.

(2) The provision that may be made under subsection (1) includes in particular provision relating to—

(a) courts,

(b) tribunals,

(c) the judges, judicial officers and other members and officers of courts and tribunals,

(d) the Counsel General or other law officers,

(e) the legal professions,

(f) the law relating to the jurisdiction of courts and tribunals, and

(g) other aspects of private international law (including, in particular, choice of law, domicile and the recognition and enforcement of judgments and awards).

(3) No Order may be made under subsection (1) unless a draft of the Order has been laid before, and approved by resolution of—

(a) each House of the United Kingdom Parliament, and

(b) the Welsh Parliament.”—(Liz Saville Roberts.)

This amendment replaces the Bill’s proposed recognition of Welsh law with provisions to establish two distinct legal jurisdictions of England and Wales, as drafted by the Welsh Government.

Question put, That the amendment be made.

--- Later in debate ---

[Mr Mark Williams]

I am grateful for the opportunity to say a few words and make some concluding remarks to the Bill. Like the Secretary of State, I would like to thank the Wales Office and its officials, for invaluable briefings during the Bill’s passage; the Presiding Officer of the National Assembly, Miss Elin Jones; and the Assembly Government for sharing some of their aspirational amendments, some of which will see their way on to the statute book.

As I have said throughout the process, my Liberal Democrat colleagues and I have long called for further devolution, according to the principle of Wales being able to govern its own affairs. I would go as far as to say “Home Rule”. This Bill is undeniably a step in the right direction.

We have come a long way since the early days of the Assembly, which was so severely restricted in its capacity to legislate. Some of us remember from past meetings of the Welsh Affairs Select Committee the appalling process of LCOs—legislative competence orders, which were to be written in stone. The hon. Member for Caerphilly (Wayne David) particularly remembers LCOs as a Wales Office Minister at the time. The spectacle of the National Assembly having to apply for permission to legislate was appalling, but we have moved on considerably.

It has been a chequered story. We have come a long way since the draft Wales Bill, published only a year ago, which was so heavily criticised for its complexity. The large list of reservations led the Wales Governance Centre to call it

“constricting, clunky, inequitable and constitutionally short-sighted.”

It was far removed from the views of the former Secretary of State when he called for a Bill that would promote

“clarity, coherence, stability, workability and sustainability.”

I am particularly grateful, therefore, to the present Secretary of State and the Under-Secretary, who have listened to many of the concerns.

I pay tribute to a selection of former Secretaries of State, not least to the right hon. Member for Preseli Pembrokeshire (Stephen Crabb), who did a huge amount to push forward this agenda. I was grateful when he included me in the St David’s Day process. I like to think that there are Liberal fingerprints on the Bill, as we look back nostalgically to the creation of the Silk commission and what flowed from Sir Paul Silk’s excellent work.

The Bill has taken into account many of the concerns that were raised during the pre-legislative scrutiny of the Welsh Affairs Committee. It is a far sight better than what we had previously, and I commend the Government for listening. As the hon. Member for Newport West (Paul Flynn) has said, however, we must not be misled into believing that the Bill provides the answer to all of Wales’s governance questions, because clearly it does not. It leaves open many questions, not least the problems of jurisdiction and the growing divergence between English and Welsh law, along with the issues of devolving policing and of youth justice.

Let me repeat what I said earlier about the issue of a separate or distinct legal jurisdiction. I do not favour and never have favoured a separate one, but the current system will sooner or later require substantial reform to cope with the growing divergence of English and Welsh law. There is an inevitability about that; the Government need to be mindful of it. They are partly mindful of it, as seen through their creation of the joint working group. That is a step in the right direction, too, but I suspect that we will return to these issues in the years to come. The Bill does not go far enough, but it is a step in the right direction.

I believe that the Bill will have a positive impact on the governance of Wales. It will provide greater accountability, greater clarity and a greater say over Welsh affairs to the people of Wales. I have said this before, but there was a party political broadcast in 1951, conducted by the then deputy leader of the Liberal party, Lady Megan Lloyd George. It was a UK broadcast, but she ended up saying “Home Rule for Wales” in Welsh: “Hunanlywodraeth i Gymru”. Many people in Wales understood what that meant. Many people had the aspiration. We are not yet there. I am not going to dismiss this Bill as a missed opportunity, but there are still many opportunities to be taken advantage of if Wales is to achieve home rule in the future.