Scotland Bill

Mark Lazarowicz Excerpts

Monday 14th March 2011 Commons Chamber

If the commencement arrangements are left unchanged, many of the most important questions about the Bill will be left unanswered. They could then be answered only by HM Treasury when it decided to do so. In the view of the Scottish Government, the SNP and, I hope, Members on both sides of the House, the Scottish Parliament should not consent to what is effectively a blank cheque for the Treasury. Our amendments simply seek that the consent of the Scottish Parliament should be required before the commencement of the provisions. The amendments were not designed to be contentious, but they are vital and would give huge protection not just to the Scottish Government but to the Scottish Parliament by ensuring that the provisions that impact directly on fiscal tax and borrowing provision in Scotland must be agreed to by the whole Parliament and not just Scottish Ministers or UK Ministers before they are applied. I commend the amendments to the Committee.

[Mark Lazarowicz (Edinburgh North and Leith) (Lab/Co-op)]

I want to raise a technical point that was stimulated in my mind by the comments of the hon. Member for Milton Keynes South (Iain Stewart). It is a fairly minor point, but the aim of the Committee is to bring out such points. The hon. Gentleman referred to the Caledonian sleeper situation in which someone got on a train late at night in Glasgow, Edinburgh or somewhere else in Scotland and found that they were in England after midnight. There could also be a situation in which someone got on a train before midnight in Glasgow or Edinburgh, expecting to be in England after midnight, but found, on looking out of the window, that they were in fact in a siding in Carstairs due to the vagaries of the weather—a situation that has perhaps faced some of us in the past.

Leaving that fairly limited example aside, it occurs to me that the issue the hon. Gentleman raises could have wider implications. Take the situation of someone who lives in Dumfriesshire or the borders, perhaps in the constituency of the Under-Secretary of State for Scotland, the right hon. Member for Dumfriesshire, Clydesdale and Tweeddale (David Mundell). That person may live in Scotland but be a night-shift worker in England—perhaps a delivery worker for a retailer or a regular night-shift worker in a factory. Such a person could be defined as being in England, rather than in Scotland, under one definition even though he clearly lived in Scotland—or vice versa. It probably would not be appropriate to amend the Bill specifically to cover this issue, but it should certainly be given some thought. Perhaps the Minister could consider it with a view to giving guidance to clarify how such a situation should be addressed. A large number of people would not be affected in that way, but more than a handful might, so it would be useful to get clarification on such points from the Minister now or later.

[Ian Murray (Edinburgh South) (Lab)]

This evening’s debate has centred around the complexities of this hugely complex legislation. I had not intended to speak, but I, too, was prompted by the contribution of the hon. Member for Milton Keynes South (Iain Stewart), which led me to think about my experience of running a small business with 12 to 14 staff, doing payroll on a weekly basis and the huge complexities of keeping up with changes in legislation and making sure that my staff were aware of such legislation. Hon. Members would not believe the number of staff I have employed over many years who did not understand what a tax code was, how they were taxed on their income and how national insurance was involved.

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[Ann McKechin]

Again, I should like to ask the Exchequer Secretary a couple of technical questions about the implementation of the clause. He has defined in proposed new section 80J(2) the people who will not be liable to pay the tax in question. Perhaps he could clarify for the record that that relates to people acting in their official capacity, and that if they happen to have property in Scotland on a personal basis, they will still be liable for the tax.

Will the Government undertake that they will not appoint the day on which the tax powers will come into effect until the Scottish Government confirm that they have satisfactory legislation in effect? I realise that the proposed implementation date is 2015, and perhaps the Exchequer Secretary could confirm that that is still the Government’s intention. It is important that people with an interest in property have an early indication of when they can expect the tax to be changed.

[Mark Lazarowicz]

I, too, have a couple of questions, and I would be most grateful if the Exchequer Secretary could deal with them. Does he believe that the provisions of the clause mean that the tax will be applied at the same rate throughout Scotland, or will it be possible for different rates to apply to different parts of Scotland? At the moment, for example, there are times when stamp duty land tax is waived for certain areas that require special assistance. Could that still apply?

Will the Scottish Parliament have the ability to delegate the power in clause 28 to local authorities, for example, so that varied rates could be offered? I am aware that that would not normally be permissible, but the Exchequer Secretary will certainly remember the debate about the possibility of a local income tax in Scotland a couple of years ago. There was a suggestion that if the Scottish Parliament introduced such a tax, it would be ultra vires. That was never tested, because of course the legislation never went through. The suggestion was that a local income tax could give local authorities the power to levy income tax through the back door. Similarly, it could be suggested that they be given the power to vary stamp duty land tax if the Scottish Parliament allowed them to do so. I would very much appreciate some guidance on those points.

I do not want to skip ahead to clause 30, but the same question applies to tax on disposals to landfill—will there be a Scottish rate, or could it be varied? Perhaps the Minister could give me the same reply to deal with both clauses.

[Mr Gauke]

As far as the list contained in proposed section 80J is concerned, I can provide the reassurance that transactions will be non-taxable only when people are acting in their official capacity. There is not some perk being made available to particular people.

The switching-off of stamp duty land tax will be achieved by Treasury order. However, the UK Government will consult the Scottish Government in setting the switch-off date and will not disapply SDLT in Scotland until the Scottish Government have the necessary legislation and administrative arrangements in place for the devolved tax.

The Scottish Government will be able to delegate the SDLT power in question to local authorities, so the matter could be further localised.

[Mark Lazarowicz]

I thank the Exchequer Secretary for his answer on that point, which I think will be received with some interest in Scotland. My other, perhaps more substantial, question was whether the Scottish Government could implement a variable rate of SDLT, or whatever equivalent they wished to introduce, in different parts of Scotland. For example, could they decide that in certain areas of high unemployment there would be no SDLT, or a lower rate? Would that be within their powers?

[Mr Gauke]

Yes, that would be within the Scottish Government’s power. I hope that my points of clarification are helpful to the Committee, and that the clause will stand part of the Bill.

Question put and agreed to.

Clause 28 accordingly ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Clause 29

Disapplication of UK stamp duty land tax

Amendment proposed: 63, page 23, line 12, after ‘Treasury’, insert ‘by order’.—(Mr Gauke.)

[Mark Lazarowicz]

For the sake of clarity, the point that I raised about the Scottish Government’s ability—

[The Second Deputy Chairman of Ways and Means (Dawn Primarolo)]

Order. I am sorry. I should have put the Question, because the amendment has already been debated in a previous group.

Amendment 63 agreed to.

Clause 29, as amended, ordered to stand part of the Bill.



Schedule 4

Scottish tax on land transactions: consequential amendments

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[Mr Gauke]

Schedule 4, which is introduced by clause 29, makes consequential provisions in connection with the disapplication of stamp duty land tax in Scotland, and is in two parts. Part 1 provides for general amendments to stamp duty land tax legislation in consequence of stamp duty land tax ceasing to apply in Scotland, and part 2 provides for the Scottish Government to supply information to HMRC regarding Scottish land tax.

Amendment 33 makes changes to the stamp duty land tax first-time buyers relief to ensure that a person who has previously bought a property in Scotland cannot qualify for relief when he or she subsequently purchases a property in England, Wales or Northern Ireland. Amendment 34 omits a further reference to Scottish land law terminology.

Amendments 35 and 36 omit provisions in the Finance (No. 2) Act 2005 and the Public Finance and Accountability (Scotland) Act 2000, which is an Act of the Scottish Parliament relating to functions of the keeper of the registers of Scotland. Those relate to the registers of Scotland’s automated registration of title to land system, which includes facilities for returns and payment of stamp duty land tax.

Lastly, amendment 36 makes detailed modifications to the provisions in the Finance Act 2009 in relation to alternative finance investment bonds or sukuk. Those modifications reflect the fact that the stamp duty land tax relief will no longer apply to sukuk in relation to land in Scotland, although the provisions for capital gains and capital allowances will continue to apply. Those changes are essential to the proper operation of stamp duty land tax after the tax is disapplied in Scotland.

Amendment 33 agreed to.

Amendments made: 34, page 35, line 36, at end insert—

‘( ) In paragraph 10 (tenants’ obligations etc that do not count as chargeable consideration), in sub-paragraph (1)(a) omit “(in Scotland, the leased premises)”.’.

Amendment 35, page 36, line 9, at end insert—

‘Finance (No. 2) Act 2005

In section 47 of the Finance (No. 2) Act 2005 (e-conveyancing) omit—

(a) subsection (1);

(b) subsection (6)(b).’.

Amendment 36, page 36, line 12, at end insert—

‘Finance Act 2009

(1) Schedule 61 to the Finance Act 2009 (alternative finance investment bonds) is amended as follows.

(2) Paragraph 1 (interpretation) is amended as follows.

(3) In sub-paragraph (1)—

(a) before the definition of “HMRC” insert—

““effective date”, for a transaction relating to land in Scotland, is the date which would be the effective date (under section 119 of FA 2003) if Part 4 of FA 2003 applied to land in Scotland;”;

(b) omit the definition of “qualifying interest”.

(4) After sub-paragraph (1) insert—

(1A) In this Schedule “qualifying interest”—

(a) in relation to land in England and Wales or Northern Ireland, means a major interest in land (within the meaning given by section 117 of FA 2003) except that it does not include a lease for a term of years of 21 years or less;

(b) in relation to land in Scotland, means—

(i) the interest of an owner of land, or

(ii) the tenant’s right over or interest in a property subject to a lease,

except that it does not include a lease for a period of 21 years or less.”

(5) Paragraph 5 (conditions for operation of relief) is amended as follows.

(6) In sub-paragraph (6) (Condition D)—

(a) after “Condition D” insert “(which applies in the case of land in England and Wales or Northern Ireland)”;

(b) omit paragraph (b).

(7) In sub-paragraph (7) (charge or security for purposes of Condition D)—

(a) omit “or security”;

(b) in paragraph (a) omit “, or a security ranking first granted over,”.

(8) In paragraph 6(1)(a) (relief from stamp duty land tax) for “the United Kingdom” substitute “England and Wales or Northern Ireland”.

(9) In paragraph 7 (withdrawal of relief in certain circumstances)—

(a) in sub-paragraph (1) after “This paragraph applies if” insert “paragraph 6 applies but”;

(b) in sub-paragraph (2) after “This paragraph also applies if” insert “paragraph 6 applies but”.

(10) In paragraph 9 (discharge of charge when conditions for relief met) omit “or security”.

(11) In paragraph 11(2) (disapplication of CGT relief if charge not given) for “the United Kingdom” substitute “England and Wales or Northern Ireland”.

(12) In paragraph 12(1)(b) (CGT relief on second transaction) for “the United Kingdom” substitute “England and Wales or Northern Ireland”.

(13) In paragraph 18(5) and (6) (discharge of charge if original land replaced)—

(a) for “the United Kingdom” substitute “England and Wales or Northern Ireland”;

(b) omit “or security”.

(14) In paragraph 19(1) (HMRC to notify Registrar of discharge)—

(a) omit “or security”;

(b) omit paragraph (b).

Public Finance and Accountability (Scotland) Act 2000 (asp 1)

In section 9(1) of the Public Finance and Accountability (Scotland) Act 2000 (Keeper of the Registers of Scotland: financial arrangements) omit “(other than payments of stamp duty land tax)”.’.—(Mr Gauke.)

Schedule 4, as amended, agreed to.

Clause 30

Scottish tax on disposals to landfill

Question proposed, That the clause stand part of the Bill.

[Mark Lazarowicz]

I shall again raise the two points that I raised in relation to clause 29. Can the Scottish Government vary the tax rate applied to different parts of Scotland, and can they further devolve the power to local government to a greater or lesser extent if they so wish? I presume that the Scottish tax rate could be different from the rate that applies in England. If so, what measures can be taken to stop the flow of waste towards the part of the country that has the lower rate of landfill tax?

[Mr Gauke]

Clause 30 provides for the devolved tax on the disposal of waste to landfill sites in Scotland. One Calman commission recommendation on tax was to devolve landfill tax, which was endorsed by the Scottish Parliament when it voted its consent on 10 March.

The tax will be a devolved tax for the purposes of part 4A of the Scotland Act 1998, which is introduced by clause 24. That means that the Scottish Government and Parliament will have complete control over the design and administration of the Scottish landfill tax, allowing them to complement their wider waste policies and to legislate to introduce a devolved tax to replace the existing UK landfill tax in Scotland. I hope that answers the main questions asked by the hon. Member for Edinburgh North and Leith (Mark Lazarowicz).

The revenue raised by the tax will remain in Scotland for use by the Scottish Government. Clause 30 provides as blank a canvas as possible for the Scottish Government to design their tax by simply providing the power to introduce a tax on material disposed of as waste to landfill sites in Scotland. It will come into effect when the Bill receives Royal Assent, which will allow the Scottish Parliament to legislate for the devolved tax, and for the Scottish Government to make the necessary administrative arrangements. The clause, however, provides that the devolved tax cannot apply to disposals made before the date on which the existing UK landfill tax is disapplied in Scotland, as provided in clause 31.

To answer the question on landfill tax competition, the Government are fully devolving that matter. Those setting the structure and rates of landfill tax in Scotland will clearly want to take into account the factors that were raised, such is the nature of devolution in such areas.

Question put and agreed to.

Clause 30 accordingly ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Clause 31

Disapplication of UK landfill tax

Amendment made: 64, page 24, line 8, after ‘Treasury’, insert ‘by order’.—(Mr Gauke.)

Clause 31, as amended, ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Schedule 5 agreed to.

Clause 32

Borrowing by the Scottish Ministers

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[Mr Donohoe]

New clauses 1 and 2 relate to regional Members of the Scottish Parliament, who were introduced in an irksome move and have been with us for a long time—since the outset of the Scottish Parliament.

[Mark Lazarowicz]

My hon. Friend describes the provisions for a system of proportional representation as irksome. How many representations have been received by Government or anybody else that call for a change to the voting system for the Scottish Parliament, apart from those of my hon. Friend and a few of our colleagues?

[Mr Donohoe]

Since I have been in a position to see this matter at first hand, I have received many representations over the years from constituents who have concerns about the system, as I am sure has my hon. Friend. As a result of my tabling the new clauses, a number of individuals have written to me to tell me that I was spot on in making this argument. Therefore, there have been a number of representations. Not many people have come to me and argued for the continuation of the crazy system that is in being. I will expand on that point later in my speech.

Never in the history of politics has a political party given so much power to its opponents as in the Scotland Act 1998. Since then, all sorts of people have come on to the scene, cherry-picked within the constituencies and caused mayhem. That is why I have tabled the new clauses. Obviously, we must look at this whole question. We must go back to the first election to the Scottish Parliament in 1999. In my constituency, there was the crazy situation in which not only was the person who came second under first past the post elected to the Scottish Parliament through the pool for constituency Members, but the people who came third and the fourth. As my constituents tell me, something is fundamentally wrong when such a system is allowed to continue. That is the crux of my argument this evening.

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[Mr Donohoe]

I am not sure that I want to wander down that road, because the hon. Lady is well aware that I am the joint chairman of the all-party group for the promotion of first past the post, and also the secretary of the relevant group in the Labour ranks. Indeed, last week I asked the Prime Minister a question about the matter and he agreed with me, which is a first. Members all know where I stand and where the campaign on first past the post is going.

Let us examine the situation as it stands. If I go to a health board meeting in Ayrshire, how many MSPs can turn up? Some 24 can turn up and be part of the debate. That is not a problem in itself, but some of those list Members represent areas outside Ayrshire. There is therefore immense conflict when decisions are taken about where health services for them and their constituents should be. I have seen that at first hand on at least a dozen occasions. As a consequence, I no longer go to those meetings. Instead, I sensibly insist on the health board meeting the MPs and constituency MSPs alone, instead of the nonsense of the cherry-picking that was and is going on among list Members north of the border.

[Mark Lazarowicz]

My hon. Friend clearly has strong views. I must say that in the area that I represent, where there are Conservative, Liberal Democrat, Green, Labour and independent list MSPs, I do not have the problems that he seems to encounter. Is not the real difficulty with his proposal that it would lead to an end to the proportional system for the Scottish Parliament? Is that not what it is really about? Would it not be undemocratic and wrong if Labour, the SNP or any other party got a majority of seats with 30% of the vote?

[Mr Donohoe]

I am sure my hon. Friend has examined my two new clauses, which are self-supporting. It is correct that in the first instance I want to bring back coterminous boundaries for all MSPs, so that there is a semblance of an organisation that can be supported by all parties in this place and elsewhere. However, the second point that I want drive home is as important as the first. I do not believe that list Members should be allowed, under any circumstances, to pick up the funds that are currently available to them to represent—or not represent—what they perceive to be their constituents.

That brings me neatly to list MSPs themselves. On a substantial number of occasions, the list Member has cherry-picked, to the detriment of the possibility of inward investment by companies of some size into my constituency—I take exception to that more than anything. On the basis of what they perceived to be environmental issues, they have come in and destroyed any possibility of a company coming into my constituency. That is wrong, and there must be accountability, but the list Member is not accountable to constituents as I am to mine. That must be fundamentally wrong. No hon. Member can tell me whether the list Members have any accountability within the structures of their political parties. That is the problem. There is no accountability whatever for list Members—[Interruption.] Does the hon. Member for Na h-Eileanan an Iar (Mr MacNeil) want to intervene?