Terminally Ill Adults (End of Life) Bill (Third sitting)

Marie Tidball Excerpts

Committee stage
Tuesday 28th January 2025 Public Bill Committees

[Sean Woodcock (Banbury) (Lab)]

Q Coercion is one of the main issues that people who are concerned about the Bill raise in opposition to it. That would include myself. We had many distinguished witnesses this morning, and the view was that coercion is “rare” in healthcare generally. It was almost given across that we did not need to worry about it, because staff are so well trained in safeguarding and so on, and they have such a level of experience. What are the views of the panel on that? Is coercion something that we should really not be so concerned about?

Dr Clarke: Based on my clinical experience, I would push back on that in the strongest terms. I am the kind of doctor who believes there is nothing to be gained from sugar coating reality. We have to be absolutely honest with patients and the public about shortcomings, failings and areas where my profession and the rest of the NHS are getting things wrong.

It is my clinical experience that not only are the majority of doctors not necessarily trained in spotting coercion explicitly, but they are often not trained explicitly in having so-called advance care planning conversations with patients around the topic of death and dying, and how a patient would like the end of their life to proceed. It is almost impossible for me to overstate how much avoidable suffering occurs right now in the NHS not because of a lack of resources for palliative care—although that is an enormous problem—but because of a lack of confidence, skill and expertise among the medical profession writ large with these very difficult conversations.

We are all familiar with the idea of death and dying being a taboo in society. People are scared of it, and they hesitate to bring it up with their friends and family. In my experience, many medical students and doctors also suffer from that anxiety. They are scared, and they find it a taboo subject. What that means is that sometimes coercion occurs because the doctor—the consultant responsible for this person’s care—will not even bring up the fact that they think the patient is dying, because it is an uncomfortable conversation. Conversely, I have worked with senior hospital consultants in the NHS who have deliberately prevented our team from accessing their patients, because they believe that the hospital palliative care team wants to kill the patients, and that if I go and see the patient, I will give them a lethal dose of drugs.

These are the kinds of extraordinary misunderstandings and failures to prioritise patient autonomy that are happening now. That is even before we get started on conversations around whether someone would like to consider assisted dying, so it is a huge problem.

[Dr Marie Tidball (Penistone and Stocksbridge) (Lab)]

Q My question is for Dr Ahmedzai. The Select Committee inquiry into assisted dying received evidence that there were not any indications of palliative or end-of-life care deteriorating in quality or provision following the introduction of assisted dying. Indeed, the introduction of it has been linked with an improvement in palliative care in several jurisdictions. I have two questions, if I may. What more could the Bill do to strengthen the available choice at the end of life and the regulation of these choices as set out in the codes of practice? If you could answer that one first, I will come back to my second question.

Dr Ahmedzai: I have visited many of the jurisdictions around the world—such as Oregon, where I met the original judge who brought in the law, as well as the doctors, nurses and patients involved—and it was clear to me that if patients had not accessed palliative care, they were pointed towards it. Obviously, you cannot force anybody to go and have palliative care, but they were certainly informed about it.

In the Netherlands, I commend a system for doctors called SCEN—support and consultation on euthanasia in the Netherlands. These are trained doctors working for the equivalent of the BMA, I believe, who, as Dr Clarke has referred to, are going and supporting doctors who are not familiar with things. They often come from a background of palliative care and pain medicine, so they are making options available that other doctors in the process, for instance, have not brought up. In Australia, there is clear evidence that palliative care is becoming more available.

The European Association for Palliative Care produced a report more than 10 years ago in which it examined all the countries in Europe at the time, and it found there was evidence that palliative care was improving in scope and availability alongside the forms of assisted dying that were happening there. I am reassured that bringing in some form of assisted dying, particularly the form proposed here, would be a boost to palliative care.

One of the things I would like to see is that anybody who is involved in the process is constantly asking the patient, “What about palliative care? Have you actually accessed it?” Right now, if they have not raised their hand and asked for assisted dying, no one has that conversation with them. They are in a vacuum and a bubble, and not receiving palliative care, whereas this provision would possibly make it more available.

[Dr Tidball]

I have two follow-up questions on that basis.

[The Chair]

Order. I do not want to squash any discussion, but I ask Members and the panel to bear in mind that we have until 3.15 pm for this session. I will be as lenient as I can with questions.

[Dr Tidball]

Q On the basis of your 39 years of experience and the Select Committee evidence that I mentioned earlier, do you acknowledge that improvements on both assisted dying and palliative care can run in parallel and do not need to be mutually exclusive?

Dr Ahmedzai: In the interests of brevity, yes.

[Dr Tidball]

Q You talked about the role of medical practitioners discussing this issue, which is of course in clause 4(2) of the Bill. Paragraph 4.2 in your own evidence was very helpful in discussing that, as it makes it clear that it is

“entirely consistent with current medical practice and with compassionate care”

to raise assisted dying. You also said that raising the topic did not have adverse effects. How could clause 4 be strengthened to ensure that patients are presented with a range of treatment options at the end of life and relay any concerns that others have raised about suggestibility where this is mentioned in isolation?

Dr Ahmedzai: That is a complicated question. The first point is that right now, as Dr Clarke pointed out, it is scary to patients to be told that they may actually be receiving palliative care. When it has been mentioned—by an oncologist, for example—many patients say, “I do not want that. Don’t let them come anywhere near me or anywhere near my relatives.” It is not unusual that people may have an adverse reaction to just hearing about the service, but here the difference is that the person has actually asked for it.

I personally believe that it would be advantageous if there was formal training, as Dr Clarke has mentioned, specifically to have the kinds of conversations that we now talk about, such as about psychological issues and suicidal tendencies. It used to be thought that if you mentioned suicide to somebody, it would give them the idea, but of course it does not; it saves them, because they say, “Thank you. Yes, I was having those thoughts.” Bringing up assisted dying is never going to be harmful to the person, even if they had not thought of it. They will just say, “Well, it is not for me.”

[Dr Tidball]

That is very helpful; thank you.

[Rebecca Paul (Reigate) (Con)]

Q My question is to Dr Sarah Cox. What do you think will be the impact on palliative care of introducing assisted dying?

Dr Cox: Professor Ahmedzai has talked about the evidence, which was written up to 10 years ago. There is actually more recent evidence, looking at the last 10 years, where European countries and American states have been assessed in terms of the development of palliative care services. That more recent evidence shows that although palliative care services have improved in those countries where assisted dying has been implemented, they have improved three times more in countries where assisted dying has not been implemented. The evidence from that study shows that the implementation of assisted dying is impeding the development of palliative care services.

The other thing we are really concerned about is the impact on funding. It is unclear how this is going to be funded. It looks as if it is going to be within healthcare, and if so, there will inevitably be competition with other aspects of healthcare, including palliative care, for those limited resources. There are finite numbers of doctors, nurses and side rooms in hospitals. If palliative care and assisted dying were funded from the same pot, I think there would be a massive detrimental effect on palliative care because we would be in competition for a limited resource.

I am also concerned about our palliative care workforce, which we know is already in crisis. Eighty-three per cent. of our members told the Royal College of Physicians in 2023 that they had staffing gaps, and more than 50% were unable to take leave because of those staffing gaps. Forty-three per cent. said that if assisted dying were implemented within their organisation, they would have to leave. This has a massive impact on palliative care, in terms of its potential to develop both our funding and our workforce, who are really concerned about this.

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[Naz Shah]

Q Following up on that, in the cases in which you authorised prosecution for murder or manslaughter, were issues of coercion ever involved? What were the bold points—the top lines—of those prosecutions?

Sir Max Hill: That small handful of cases involved an elderly couple where either he—it was usually a he—or she had chosen to bring to an end the life of their lifelong partner and, once that act had been carried out, claimed that it was an assisted suicide in circumstances where the surviving partner was merely carrying out the wish of the person now dead. There are a handful of cases in which that is clearly wrong and should not be accepted and where murder should be the offence brought before the court.

The point, though, is that throughout the time that I served as DPP—and, indeed, the time served by all my predecessors—we did not have the coercion offences created by the Bill, which I suggest would be a significant advance, and nor did we have a legal system in which the investigation was taking place before the death. It was the other way around. In each of the 27 cases I considered, the deceased individual was already dead, and that is when the scrutiny started. The major advantage of the Bill, if I can put it that way, is that that will be reversed, and scrutiny will be before death. In the case of coercion, where it fits the new potential clauses, prosecutions can—and, I am sure, will—be brought.

[Dr Tidball]

Q It is extremely helpful to understand the opportunity for scrutiny before death. Building on that point, are there any safeguards around those practices that are not currently included in the Bill but should be, particularly around detecting coercion and exploring alternative care options? I also have one follow-up question, if I may.

Sir Max Hill: I think that coercion and the coercion clauses in the Bill should be read alongside the capacity clauses. What we are looking for, as required by clause 1(1) and clause 1(2), is a clear, settled and informed wish, voluntarily made without coercion or pressure. Those aspects were taken, at least in part, from the Crown Prosecution Service guidance on 1961 Act cases. Capacity involves understanding information, retaining it, using it and communicating it. If those hallmarks are not there, you may be in a situation where you should be considering coercion. I think you read the two together.

To answer your question directly, the criminal liability clauses—clause 24, and the new offences in clauses 26 and 27—are robust. As a matter for your scrutiny, they are aspects that we do not have in the law at present. There is, of course, the addition of clause 36, under which you cannot be a witness or a proxy to the procedure that is enshrined in the Bill if you are too close to the terminally ill person. That is another hallmark of the Bill that will hedge against coercion.

[Dr Tidball]

Q I want to follow up, because this is really important in strengthening the Bill. Based on your prosecutorial experience, what key elements should be present in the definitions of coercion, pressure and dishonesty? I also have a bit of a technical question, if I may. Do you think they would be better placed in clause 26 or in clause 40, under interpretation? I am asking what more you can say on the key elements of coercion, pressure and dishonesty, and I am asking about their placement in the Bill to make them as accessible as possible to medical practitioners and patients who will want to rely on it.

Sir Max Hill: My inclination is that clause 26, which is part of the full body of the Bill, is the right place for this. As with the interpretation clause, clause 40, and as with the way we interpret statute as a matter of course, there are aspects of other statutory offences or Acts of Parliament that help us when we are seeking to determine what coercion is. The creation of the offence of coercion and control, now very commonly used in domestic abuse investigations and prosecutions, has brought us into this territory. It is not beyond the wit of anybody who seeks to use and interpret this Bill to also look for other parts of statute that deal with coercion.

I make the same point about capacity. What is in the Bill is very slender, one might say, because clause 3 simply invites the reader to look across to the Mental Capacity Act 2005. But that Act is very clear on what mental capacity is and how it is defined. I think what I am saying is that it is a drafting point, and I am not a parliamentary draftsman, but I do not have a problem with the definitions of dishonesty, coercion and pressure being in clause 26, where they are. It is not the only place one would look, though; there are other sources.

[Dr Tidball]

Q You have helpfully acknowledged the link that we need to make on coercion to strengthen this, but on the other two elements—dishonesty and pressure—is there anything else that we need to look to in order to make this more robust?

Sir Max Hill: “Dishonesty” is a term of art in common use, but it is also a term of statute. Anyone investigating or, still more, prosecuting would understand what dishonesty means. I accept that there is a wider point—not so much for interpretation but for understanding—that this Committee may want to consider, of how much of that existing definition needs to be imported into the Bill. As with mental capacity, I would suggest that, beyond perhaps the odd footnote, it is not necessary for you as a Committee to define again what dishonesty means, because we have it elsewhere.

Alex Ruck Keene: On pressure, I think the Committee would be really assisted by having a look at the learning of the High Court judges exercising their jurisdiction under the inherent jurisdiction in relation to people who are said to be vulnerable. They have developed an awful lot of tools, where they are trying to look at people in complicated situations—potentially, but not necessarily, with impairments—who are caught up in what one person brilliantly described as being caught in a spider’s web. Those are the sorts of sets of tools used when judges are trying to work out what is going on, and whether it is the side of the line we consider to be acceptable or the side of the line we consider unacceptable—because “pressure” is doing a lot of work there.

[Jake Richards (Rother Valley) (Lab)]

Q Thank you all for your written evidence. Sir Nicholas, in your helpful written evidence, you adopt Sir James Munby’s criticism of the current proposal for judicial oversight, and you instead recommend what you call a “Spanish-style specialist panel”. Could you set out for the Committee what you see as the benefit of that approach compared to what might be described as the stark judicial oversight of the High Court judge?

Sir Nicholas Mostyn: One per cent would be 6,000 deaths a year. If each took two hours to process in the High Court—you have to read it and hear the evidence; one of them has to be oral and you have to write a judgment—that is 12,000 hours. Each High Court judge does 1,000 hours in court—outside court, they do lots—so you are talking about nearly three quarters of the entire family division doing nothing but this. It is impossible, in my opinion, for this to be done by the High Court. It should be done in the Spanish way by a panel that is set up. In Spain, the chairperson of the regulator sets up a panel for each case—a doctor and a lawyer. They have to agree and they check that everything has been done lawfully. They do not make any value judgment about whether it is in the person’s best interest. They check that it has all been lawfully.

Interestingly, in 2023, 10% extra denials were done by the panel. I do not know whether that was because they were concerned about voluntariness or whether they were concerned about suffering—because the criterion is suffering there—but an extra 10% was done by the panel, so the panel was not just rubber-stamping. They denied an extra 10%. I believe that an ad hoc system like that, with a doctor and a lawyer doing a check, would be the best way of doing it. The High Court—trust me, I’ve just come from there—has not got the capacity to deal with 6,000 cases of this nature.

--- Later in debate ---

[Jake Richards]

Forgive me, Mr Dowd. I meant that, in terms of the assisted dying process in the Bill, there is no automated mechanism for family members, or indeed any third parties, apart from the doctors, to have notice of this intention. Is there a concern, regarding this appeal point, that perhaps interested parties would not know?

Sir Max Hill: I would suggest that the key to this is in clause 12(5), and that is why I have recommended just striking out the words “High Court” and putting in the word “panel”, and then reading the whole of clause 12 as amended, with those situations in which there are steps that “must” be taken—and there are many—and those in which there are steps that “may” be taken.

In clause 12(5), following that logic, we would imagine that a panel, just as the High Court,

“may hear from and question, in person, the person who made the application”

but

“must hear from…the coordinating doctor”.

The appellate mechanism, which I agree there needs to be, will be looking sharply at the operation of that subsection. In other words, when the panel made its decision to refuse, on what basis did it make that decision and from whom had it heard? We can well imagine situations in which a co-ordinating doctor, having taken his or her own steps to ascertain the views of the nearest and dearest, would satisfy the panel as to what the views of the family are. The reverse of that is that there is no indication here that, having gone all the way through the panel, the family would have been made aware or considered at all. I think that that will be a rare scenario, but I am not a medical professional. I think you can cover that, perhaps with some changes here or there on what you impose on the panel as a mandatory duty and what you leave by way of discretion, subject to the rules of procedure that the panel would then adopt.

[Dr Tidball]

Q I have a question for Sir Max Hill and Alex Ruck Keene. Your insight on clause 12 has been helpful. What procedures would you recommend be adopted for testing and, if need be, challenging the evidence as part of an evidentiary process linked to the panel that you set out?

Alex Ruck Keene: This is, for the moment, predicated on the fact that we are still in the High Court, as opposed to slightly making up policy on the fly about a panel. Assuming it is the High Court, it seems to me the Court has to be discharging a properly inquisitorial jurisdiction, which means it has to be armed with the tools to do that, which includes arming it with the tools to call for its own evidence. It also seems to me that the High Court would have to be armed with its own ability to not just receive evidence from one side and have someone testing it. That then brings you to the only player in town who could possibly do that, which would be the Official Solicitor as advocate to the Court.

I do not want to emphasise too much the question of resources, because if Parliament thinks this is sufficiently important, the resources will be voted through. But it is vitally important to note that the Official Solicitor is completely overloaded, and we would be asking the Official Solicitor to act as advocate to the Court in every single one of these cases. You could not have it be optional; you cannot say that it is some and not others. If it is going to be inquisitorial, the High Court has to have the ability to say, “This is one-sided; someone needs to tease it out,” so the Official Solicitor would have to be funded to be advocate to the Court and, if necessary, instruct lawyers in every single case.

Sir Max Hill: The model that I was espousing would not necessarily involve the Official Solicitor at all. It would make no draw on the administration of the Court or any officer of the Court, still less full-time judges. It would allow the appointment of recently retired judges, as we have in a number of scenarios—surveillance commissioners, for example—and a fresh administration. With that, as with the High Court model at the moment, there is the primary set of provisions, which Parliament must impose, and it is important that that is sufficient for what Alex called an inquisitorial function. Those are in part mandatory—those things that the panel must be satisfied about, which are set out in clause 12(3). Then there are those that are discretionary, which are set out in clause 12(5).

What sits between the two is very important. That is currently expressed as “Rules of Court”, but it would be the rules of the panel, or the commission that appoints the panels. In a court scenario, we are all familiar with criminal procedure rules and civil procedure rules; that is the secondary stage that is reached once the primary legislation has been fixed. That, too, would apply to the commission or panel process, but I do not necessarily think that it would involve using existing, paid judicial resources at all.

[The Chair]

Unless there are any more pressing questions—

--- Later in debate ---

[Naz Shah]

I beg to move an amendment to amendment (a), at end insert—

“Richard Robinson, CEO of Hourglass, Cherry Henry-Leach of STADA, Standing Together Against Domestic Abuse ”.

I completely agree with my hon. Friend the Member for Spen Valley and I am grateful to her for adding Professor Jane Monckton-Smith to the witness list. I also absolutely agree that the evidence we receive is really valuable.

This is an amendment tabled yesterday by the Mother of the House, my right hon. Friend the Member for Hackney North and Stoke Newington (Ms Abbott) yesterday, to which I have added my name.

The reason for the amendment is that Hourglass focuses on domestic abuse of older people and it has particularly noted that the majority of such victims are female. Hourglass estimates that one in six elderly people are victims of coercion in the UK. This raises serious concerns that such people could be pushed into ending their lives if the Bill is enacted. Hourglass has not published a public opinion on the Bill.

Standing Together Against Domestic Abuse has said that

“We must echo concerns raised by the VAWG sector”—

the violence against women and girls sector—

“and disability activists about the bill’s current safeguards. There is insufficient clarity on what constitutes coercion and limited reflection on carer capacity to support someone terminally ill. Without robust measures, there is a real risk that assisted dying could be exploited as a tool for coercion or even femicide.

Statistics show that over 88% of unlawful ‘mercy killings’ are perpetrated by men towards women, often involving violent means. These troubling realities demand urgent consideration in shaping this legislation.

We also highlight the health sector’s role in identifying domestic abuse. With 80% of victim-survivors having their first or only point of contact in healthcare, it is critical that health professionals are equipped to identify and respond to abuse.

We call on the Government to ensure the proposed bill includes stringent safeguards and that healthcare systems are equipped to recognise and prevent the potential misuse of assisted dying. Femicide is already a crisis in the UK, and no law should inadvertently contribute to its escalation.”

All my adult life, I have had experience of dealing with domestic abuse and coercion, and I draw on that experience to speak to these amendments. Although Professor Jane Monckton-Smith is an expert, she is an academic. These two organisations work with people who have been victims of abuse.

In addition, we had an official meeting with the Clerk to discuss the proposals for Committee sittings. It was said at that meeting that we would only have witnesses who would give evidence, particularly in person, that would contribute to the deliverability and the workability of the Bill. Since then, we have had families added to the list of witnesses. That adds weight to the argument that we should have witnesses who are providing a service to victims directly.

[Dr Tidball]

I, too, support my hon. Friend the Member for Spen Valley and in particular I want to highlight the helpful addition of Kamran Mallick of Disability Rights UK. That augments an already comprehensive list of expert disabled people, which includes: Professor Tom Shakespeare, an internationally renowned disability rights academic; Dr Miro Griffiths, a Disability Studies scholar at the University of Leeds; and Chelsea Roff, the founder of Eat Breathe Thrive. On the panel, we will also have a representative of the Equality and Human Rights Commission, who will be able to give a good overview on the intersection between protected characteristics. Finally, there will be Jon Sparkes, the representative of Mencap.

I am really pleased that my hon. Friend has worked so hard to ensure that the voices of disabled people are integrated across a number of the panels that we will see over the next two days, and the addition in her amendment is really helpful. I commend her for it.

[Kit Malthouse]

I, too, support the amendment proposed by the hon. Member for Spen Valley, and in particular the addition of Jane Monckton-Smith. I have read her book; it is definitely worth a read and is pretty alarming. I will address why I do not think the Committee should support the amendment to the amendment tabled to add other witnesses.

Jane Monckton-Smith has done a huge amount of research in the area, and as well as being an academic who specialises in coercion and femicide—and the impact that coercion has on femicide—she is a former police officer, so has significant frontline experience. As part of her research she will have spoken with and interacted with many of the groups that the hon. Member for Bradford West is proposing to include—although maybe not specifically. I would prefer it if we stuck with the list that the hon. Member for Spen Valley has put forward, and not add the additional witnesses proposed.

[Naz Shah]

There is nothing in my amendment that suggests Professor Monckton-Smith is not capable in her expertise. I am asking for other expertise to be brought to the table. Yes, there is the argument that people can submit written evidence—but so could every witness we have heard from today, and that we will hear from tomorrow and the day after. If that is the yardstick, is this just a tokenistic exercise? I would argue that for women in particular, who are the victims of domestic abuse—

[Dr Tidball]

I note that Laura Hoyano, who is giving evidence on Thursday, is a domestic abuse barrister. She has also been involved in inquiries on child sexual abuse, and has a great range of experience in that area. She will bring that to the table as a practising barrister working closely on such cases.